Engine

[skuphundaku]

Using the Doom 3 engine would be amazing if InXile could somehow get around the GPL.

But why should they want to go around GPL? And why would you want them to go around GPL? I see GPL as a very positive feature, not the other way around.

[DerRidda]

That's pretty much the reason why Unigine looks like the best fitting glove here. Mature modern engine, reasonable license fee around USD30k plus all needed platforms and then some. Of course I don't know what inXile is looking for the most in an engine but based on the available information Unigine sounds like a "no-brainer".

[geezer]

They don't get the unigine source code for 30k though. Only the SDK. If they have to make changes they can't. We don't know how much the source code would cost them.

I didn't mean "get around" in the sense you are thinking of, skuphundaku. I mean if they could reach some agreement with id for using it without violating the GPL. Not sure if that's possible, but if they could it is obviously a nice engine from the guys who I think basically invented the whole idea of a game 'engine' and who have been multiplatform and OGL longer than most.

[skuphundaku]

They don't get the unigine source code for 30k though. Only the SDK. If they have to make changes they can't. We don't know how much the source code would cost them.

I didn't mean "get around" in the sense you are thinking of, skuphundaku. I mean if they could reach some agreement with id for using it without violating the GPL. Not sure if that's possible, but if they could it is obviously a nice engine from the guys who I think basically invented the whole idea of a game 'engine' and who have been multiplatform and OGL longer than most.

My question was along the lines: "Why do you see GPL as a problem to be solved instead of a feature/opportunity to be embraced/taken advantage of?" Of course they could go to id and license idTech 4 and, thus, circumvent GPL, but that has at least two problems:
1) they would have to deal with Zenimax, because Zenimax owns id now, and Zenimax is, frankly, the devil. Zenimax represent the publishers that wouldn't give the time of day to BF, so why would he want to go back under their thumb?
2) they would have to pay for it. And that may be more expensive than inXile can afford.
If they embrace GPL, their community would explode (in a good way). The modding scene would be off the charts. Being GPL, all the community improvements could be merged back into the main engine and used for later games. And it wouldn't mean that they would be giving away the game for free because GPL concerns just the engine code. Nobody would force them to publish the assets under a free license, so it wouldn't mean that everybody could just package a working version of the game and sell it for profit. Finally, don't forget that by getting funding from us, the community, via Kickstarter, it can't be claimed that giving their engine modifications back to the community that supported them would be some kind of ripoff on the part of the community. They get funding for making the game, which pays for all their trouble. Everything they earn after finishing the game and selling it to others is pure profit. All the while they gain massive support from everybody involved in the process.

[yezu]

But why should they want to go around GPL? And why would you want them to go around GPL? I see GPL as a very positive feature, not the other way around.

I totally agree. I would definitely support releasing Wasteland 2 as FLOSS (at least in regards to the tech). However, I kind of can't see that coming. This would a hell of a precedent, a highest profile free software game yet.

inXile if you're looking at this conversation please at least think of GPL'ing the code, ok?

[Bryce777]

GPL - Aren't there some serious issues with GPL for a commercial game? Even for the LGPL you can only dynamically link. For the standard GPL I don't think you can do anything commercial at all without paying a fee. GNU is really not very free at all, it's a terrible license in many ways.

Unity - no linux. Yeah, I forgot that.

For C4 once Eric updates to linux bugs won't be an issue, the guy is the most rock solid programmer I've ever heard of. I think unigine's claim to fame was they were the engine The Fall was going to use. It's out of my price range so I never got the source obviously.

I'm hoping that they will go open source if they get enough money. If they can get word out to slashdot they could make an extra million or two easily, enough to make it worth their while. A lot of the guys who gave up on PC games a decade ago read slashdot every day.

It seems that people are very paranoid about releasing anything even partially open source, though. One problem is the engines usuallya ren't open source but they could make their code open source at least.

[skuphundaku]

GPL - Aren't there some serious issues with GPL for a commercial game? Even for the LGPL you can only dynamically link. For the standard GPL I don't think you can do anything commercial at all without paying a fee. GNU is really not very free at all, it's a terrible license in many ways.

GPL forces you to do a single thing: release the modifications you've made to the code. As long as you do that, you can do whatever you want with it. Many of the embedded appliances you have around the house run Linux (GPL code): wireless access points, TiVo, Android phones and tablets etc. They're all commercial in nature, but because they stick to the terms of GPL and release the code modifications, they have no problem. The same goes for commercial Linux distros.

[geezer]

Oh. I see what you are saying now. Well it would be nice if InXile were willing to do that. I also forgot about Id being being bought out by Zenimax. Zenimax probably isn't too happy about this turn of events. I don't think they would be too helpful. In fact they would probably love to have some excuse to sue InXile. Any excuse.

When you say release the modifications you've made to the code. what does that mean in specific terms? Like if the engine consists of C++ objects and they make changes to some of them they have to upload the code for those changed objects somewhere? Has any game developer ever used GPL code before?

[SXX]

They don't get the unigine source code for 30k though. Only the SDK. If they have to make changes they can't. We don't know how much the source code would cost them.

You are totally wrong.

Few month ago unigine sell full source code for something like $16k for Windows, Mac and Linux.
I don't think something changed for that time, I think its just marketing choice to hide prices.

[geezer]

They don't get the unigine source code for 30k though. Only the SDK. If they have to make changes they can't. We don't know how much the source code would cost them.

You are totally wrong.

Few month ago unigine sell full source code for something like $16k for Windows, Mac and Linux.
I don't think something changed for that time, I think its just marketing choice to hide prices.

Wow. That's great news. Well officially consider me gung ho for the unigine then.

[SXX]

GPL - Aren't there some serious issues with GPL for a commercial game? Even for the LGPL you can only dynamically link. For the standard GPL I don't think you can do anything commercial at all without paying a fee. GNU is really not very free at all, it's a terrible license in many ways.

You can make any commercial game on GPL code as long is you open code of your product.
All game content can still be proprietary, anything exclude code: textures, scripts, music, video.
But GPLv3 not completable with Steam because its have DRM, but Desura doesn't have DRM for example.

But if its fully your code you can license it under thousands of different licenses, but not if you use GPL engine.

[SXX]

Wow. That's great news. Well officially consider me gung ho for the unigine then.

Engine its not just cross platform support.
Its should have a lot of tools, so I don't sure Unigine have enough features for RPG development.
Mac/Linux porting could be cheaper than toolset creation.

So I think we will not see any well-known engine in Wasteland 2, not Unreal/Unity/Unigine. IMHO.

[skuphundaku]

When you say release the modifications you've made to the code. what does that mean in specific terms? Like if the engine consists of C++ objects and they make changes to some of them they have to upload the code for those changed objects somewhere? Has any game developer ever used GPL code before?

Yes, exactly! What that means is that when they release the game (be it brick&mortar, digital or both), they have to publish the modified engine, if they made any modifications to the code whatsoever. They could publish the modified engine on GitHub, Gitorius, SourceForce, host it on their own website etc. Those are details that aren't that important. The important thing is the release of the modifications to the code.

As for devs using GPL engines. There are a few engines which were GPLd some time after the release of their commercial games (id are the most famous for that). As for games that have been created using GPL engines from the start, all the projects that I know of (Exult, Spring) have been created as non-commercial projects. However, given the unorthodox way WL2 is getting its funding, it also being the first commercial game to be created from the start using a GPL engine wouldn't be so shocking.

[SXX]

When you say release the modifications you've made to the code. what does that mean in specific terms? Like if the engine consists of C++ objects and they make changes to some of them they have to upload the code for those changed objects somewhere? Has any game developer ever used GPL code before?

Problems with GPL engine not in the code or license in the fact.

People say something about engines like idTech but don't think that is RPG game are very different.
RPG require totally different features of toolset than founded free engines can have.
Its really hard to make RPG game by using first-person shooter engine.

[Licaon_Kter]

Its should have a lot of tools, so I don't sure Unigine have enough features for RPG development.

so besides these: http://unigine.com/products/unigine/ what do you think it's needed for W2?

[SXX]

However, given the unorthodox way WL2 is getting its funding, it also being the first commercial game to be created from the start using a GPL engine wouldn't be so shocking.

Which one?

idTech 4 released under GPLv3 and that block any possibility to public game on Steam.
I don't see any other serious engines here.

[geezer]

When you say release the modifications you've made to the code. what does that mean in specific terms? Like if the engine consists of C++ objects and they make changes to some of them they have to upload the code for those changed objects somewhere? Has any game developer ever used GPL code before?

Problems with GPL engine not in the code or license in the fact.

People say something about engines like idTech but don't think that is RPG game are very different.
RPG require totally different features of toolset than founded free engines can have.
Its really hard to make RPG game by using first-person shooter engine.

That is something that has worried me actually and you seem to be confirming my worst fears. If many of the engine libraries and tools are not useful for turn based RPG mechanics that could certainly make it much more difficult to find an engine. If they have to write all of their own code that would otherwise be in the engine do you think that is remotely realistic in a 12 month time frame? Still, couldn't the engine still be useful for at least the rendering? Surely drawing a scene can't be that different unless the turn based aspect would cause some problems.

[skuphundaku]

However, given the unorthodox way WL2 is getting its funding, it also being the first commercial game to be created from the start using a GPL engine wouldn't be so shocking.

Which one?

idTech 4 released under GPLv3 and that block any possibility to public game on Steam.
I don't see any other serious engines here.

If you'd ask me to decide, I would say "Fuck Steam! Go with idTech 4 anyway." but you're right, idtech 4 is GPL 3 which prevents it from using any kind of DRM, so it prevents it for being sold on Steam. This is one more reason to hate Steam and all the fools that are begging to be Steam slaves.

[SXX]

so besides these: http://unigine.com/products/unigine/ what do you think it's needed for W2?

Game need tons of tools to be made.
Unigine doesn't have lot of tools like UDK or Unity.
All these tools like speedtree, scaleform, face creating and animation, fast landscape edition.
This tools doesn't give benefits to RPG, but they make content creation much faster.
I don't sure Unigine have even 1/3 of all tools which available in UDK.

RPG game engine should have very powerful logic for quest/script/dialogues creating.
As well its should allow to modify lot of formulas.

My opinion goes under: I think Fargo license or get as gift some unknown game engine which created specially for RPG-like projects.
With game engine created for RPG (may be for new-style RPG) its will be much easy to get all required tools to work.
And probably its will be much cheaper than buying of something UDK.

[SXX]

This is one more reason to hate Steam and all the fools that are begging to be Steam slaves.

Steam allow to public games with no DRM, but Steam still a DRM by itself.
Its just stupid law.