Avoid China-bashing

[CanadianWolvie]

Just demonize every government to be sure.

And then nuke those governments from orbit, just to be sure.

[Tanglebones]

The Soviets are America's big enemy in Wasteland, just like they were in the real-world 1980s.

If the enemy changes from the USSR then what's even the damn point of making the game.

Sort of. But remember that it isn't like the US and USSR were actively at war when the nukes launched. This is one thing to remember, especially for people who are only familiar with Fallout - In Fallout, the nuclear war was the climax of the chinese-american war. In Wasteland, things were different. Sure there were tensions, but the launch was a panicked reaction to most of the satellites of the major powers being wiped out of the sky.

Personally, this "accidental" or "sudden" nuclear war always resonated more with me anyways - at least at the time, that sudden exchange without any real warning (to us regular people anyways) was always the bigger fear for me. In that sense, the Soviets weren't really the bad guys - they were just half of the equation that ended up destroying the world.

I liked the sort of air of mystery that the story about Citadel Starstation going offline lent to the game (my theory: aliens... they just landed somewhere else than Southern California) and then everyone freaking out and launching nukes because they thought it was "the other side" really fit the paranoia that came with the late 80's. I'd like to see references to the "evil" Soviets remain in the game... but I don't want to see any specific people group demonized. The original WL let you play as Chinese, Russian, American and Mexican (iirc... was there one more?).

[UniversalWolf]

I blame Canada.

[Temaperacl]

The original WL let you play as Chinese, Russian, American and Mexican (iirc... was there one more?).

Indian

[PiPboy]

If we can't blame, russia, china, or canada. Whats left? Polar Bears?
Darn those polar bears, and their snow storm cloaking devices.

[paultakeda]

http://www.c64sets.com/set.html?id=16&show_all=1

Read page 1. As mentioned already, Wasteland's setting is the aftermath of a nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR in 1998. Now why are you trying to rewrite the game history for a sequel? Perhaps you would like it if a bunch of birds attacked the missile silos and caused an accidental missile launch? The Soviets, wearing thigh high red boots, then retaliated.

[Temaperacl]

http://www.c64sets.com/set.html?id=16&show_all=1

Read page 1. As mentioned already, Wasteland's setting is the aftermath of a nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR in 1998. Now why are you trying to rewrite the game history for a sequel? Perhaps you would like it if a bunch of birds attacked the missile silos and caused an accidental missile launch? The Soviets, wearing thigh high red boots, then retaliated.

You talking to anyone in particular? Because you didn't quote anyone and I'm not seeing anything in this thread trying to rewrite the history except maybe Ekaros' response to Skirge and Eich's first post (Which is then rescinded by Eich's second.

[paultakeda]

You talking to anyone in particular? Because you didn't quote anyone and I'm not seeing anything in this thread trying to rewrite the history except maybe Ekaros' response to Skirge and Eich's first post (Which is then rescinded by Eich's second.

I probably should have made it a separate thread as an opinion of mine that folks should go over the game manual for the original game before posting. Don't mind me.

[Conall]

you cant have full scale thermonuclear war with people who have no nuclear weapons - keep it as it was. Just because the nuclear Armageddon of the 90's didn't happen doesn't mean we cant use it as a game setting.

[Miltrivd]

I would say the potential problem is not demonizing a country, there needs to be a conflict, so at least two nations have to be involved (several in different grades would be nice). I think making the protagonist country (the USA in this case) a hopeless victim, underdog, misunderstood do-gooder; that is, making it the good guy, could be the issue.

I want an immersive experience, having patriotism as a characteristic of several/some NPCs, party members or the protagonist (player's choice) characters suits it just fine, specially after being attacked, but making the plot a good vs evil thing must be avoided.

Why all this? The plot must appeal to the characters, NOT the players. I want my character to feel compelled to do whatever task at hand, but according their background/choices. What happens if my character hates his/her country, or is a foreigner, or was a spy, or just wants to live his/her life? To have variety, patriotism must exist as part of the world, not the center of it. As some said, having a nemesis is a must, but a nemesis is different for everyone, for some will be an enemy country, for some it will be his/her own country, for some will be their neighbors, for others war itself, for most... It should be simply death.

[Bulba]

I would say the potential problem is not demonizing a country, there needs to be a conflict, so at least two nations have to be involved (several in different grades would be nice). I think making the protagonist country (the USA in this case) a hopeless victim, underdog, misunderstood do-gooder; that is, making it the good guy, could be the issue.

I want an immersive experience, having patriotism as a characteristic of several/some NPCs, party members or the protagonist (player's choice) characters suits it just fine, specially after being attacked, but making the plot a good vs evil thing must be avoided.

Why all this? The plot must appeal to the characters, NOT the players. I want my character to feel compelled to do whatever task at hand, but according their background/choices. What happens if my character hates his/her country, or is a foreigner, or was a spy, or just wants to live his/her life? To have variety, patriotism must exist as part of the world, not the center of it. As some said, having a nemesis is a must, but a nemesis is different for everyone, for some will be an enemy country, for some it will be his/her own country, for some will be their neighbors, for others war itself, for most... It should be simply death.

I don't care who will be the other country involved in the nuke war, but I would absolutly hate any patriotism from my character or nps. I know that a lot of US sitizens are being brainwashed into loving their evil goverment 24/7, but I don't wanna see it in the game - it just looks stupid.

[paultakeda]

I don't care who will be the other country involved in the nuke war

Okay. But FYI, it was the USSR.

I would absolutly hate any patriotism from my character or nps. I know that a lot of US sitizens are being brainwashed into loving their evil goverment 24/7, but I don't wanna see it in the game - it just looks stupid.

For characters, no. Characters are created by you. You make up their back story. You imbue them with their character. In the original game, aside from stats you could pick name, nationality and gender. Just look at the YouTube Let's Play -- that's how I assume most CRPGers play their characters in their head, myself included; granting them personalities, desires, goals.

For NPCs? Uh, yeah. NPCs can be anything. They can be patriotic, nihilistic, whatever the game creator sees fit. They might obey your commands, they might just not bother. That was the truly awesome thing about Wasteland: the NPCs had their own motivations and they could run counter to yours.

[Miltrivd]

I don't care who will be the other country involved in the nuke war, but I would absolutly hate any patriotism from my character or nps. I know that a lot of US sitizens are being brainwashed into loving their evil goverment 24/7, but I don't wanna see it in the game - it just looks stupid.

Yeah, well, the thing is to have options. In a post-apocalyptic world produced by a war, is pretty normal to have patriotism, we have a lot of it right now. Point is, it must be the character's decision to be a patriot or not (for the playable ones) and some gotta be (NPCs) for it to be a believable story, besides, if your character is not patriotic it would make sense distancing yourself from the NPCs that are (if you want to) and allying with them if you are a patriot yourself (if you want to).

It's all about choices, that's why I say that patriotism must be in the world, not in the plot.

[geezer]

Patriotism does not have to be in the world. What the hell does that mean anyway?

[Miltrivd]

Patriotism does not have to be in the world. What the hell does that mean anyway?

I'm not getting the idea across. Let's see, do the US have patriotism now? Will it disappear after a nation-wide disaster? Is just that.

My point is to not have patriotism rule the plot, I'm not from the US (should come across quite easily since I don't use the erroneous american term) and my worry is that patriotism could take over as has happened with a massive number of war-related games, people don't notice as easily when they are from the country being elevated to a savior-holder-of-truth, but from outside is quite obvious and embarrassing to see and it lessens the quality of the story.

Think of Fallout 3, you have the Enclave as a faction and Nathan Vargas (the old man in Megaton that constantly speaks of "good ol' America") as patriotism symbols. You can agree/disagree or ally/be enemies with them. But the game doesn't revolve around killing chinese, saving the country, etc. They did it well, in my opinion.

My whole comment is for the writers to be alert to that and to not fall into putting patriotism as a core part of the plot, and as I said in the first one, I think that's the real problem, more so than demonizing X country.

[geezer]

Oh I see. I am American and I completely agree. Nothing is more nauseating to me than American 'patriotism'. Eww. To me that sounds more like patriotism should *not* be in the game. Or if it is it should be some enemy who you can just shoot. I even sort of liked the suggestion of setting the game in Mexico instead of the US. The only problem with that is it wouldn't make sense for people to be speaking English unless Mexico and the US had merged or something.

[Bloodgrin]

This thread made me lol. So what countries are really capable of bringing down the entire world in a nuclear holocaust?

Norway?
Poland?
Zambia?
Thailand?

Since the game is still set in this world I think it would be quite wierd for people to ge a story where the reason for why the world is nuked to crap is because the great war between the US and some country that doesn't even have any real fire power.

But hey, we can start a petition that Brian Fargo includes the text "No chinease where harmed during the making of this game" in the credits if it will ease your obviously sensitive soul.

[Sleepingfurry]

Oh god please don't make take anything from our trendy politically correct world into wasteland. Opposing communities and factions in the game should feel free to be on the edge in expressing their hatred towards one and other. Don't give npcs the minds and beliefs of people in modern life but those living in apocalyptic world.

[Woolfe]

This thread made me lol. So what countries are really capable of bringing down the entire world in a nuclear holocaust?

Norway?
Poland?
Zambia?
Thailand?

Since the game is still set in this world I think it would be quite wierd for people to ge a story where the reason for why the world is nuked to crap is because the great war between the US and some country that doesn't even have any real fire power.

But hey, we can start a petition that Brian Fargo includes the text "No chinease where harmed during the making of this game" in the credits if it will ease your obviously sensitive soul.

It was the bloody Kiwi's I tell you... You can't trust the New Zealand sheep shaggers....



(Just jokes of course.... too many bloody kiwi's over here to risk getting them angry )

[BlackGauntlet]

I hope it's Vietnam... and even after they triggered a Holocaust, I'd still love them loooong time.