Power Armour dominating late game

[Drool]

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/90006053_103a0fad5e_o-1.jpg

That looks to be a similar scale as you'd find for a Battletech Elemental suit. Except the pilots were 8 or 10 foot tall giants themselves.

Although, personally, I'm fine with Wasteland power armor essentially being Iron Man suits.

[CaptainPatch]

I think you underestimate the potential of these machines.
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvbAqw0s ... re=related
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8UeT9r4 ... re=related

1) 4 legs = 4 points of contact with which to have greater stability than a bipedal unit.
2) Slow and careful.
3) Slow and careful.

I'd be more impressed if these units at least jogged. [In the case of #1, if it at least galloped.]

[Gizmo]

I think you underestimate the potential of these machines.
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNZPRsrwumQ
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvbAqw0s ... re=related
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8UeT9r4 ... re=related

1) 4 legs = 4 points of contact with which to have greater stability than a bipedal unit.
2) Slow and careful.
3) Slow and careful.

Those links have zero relevance with respect to any part of the discussion beyond your "underestimating the potential of these machines" . You cannot shoot them down to any advantage in the argument. They are merely real-world current examples of human walker technology. We were discussing a fictional cargo loader on a starship (and when you mentioned the need for flat [ideal] surfaces, I mentioned how even our own toys can traverse complicated terrain... Did the loader not seem slow and careful? This is part of why I think it's more likely an automated walker that you direct with a joystick and/or throttle.

I'd be more impressed if these units at least jogged. [In the case of #1, if it at least galloped.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mclbVTIYG8E

BigDog seems more for load bearing; like robotic pack mule, but the Cheatah is a design for running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2D71CveQwo

[CaptainPatch]

Apples and oranges. Of course any automaton can be set to autopilot on a treadmill. Negotiating movement through a cluttered, unstructured terrain is vastly more difficult. And four legs provides greater stability than just two.

I think that the sheer mass of the power loader also had something to do with its relatively slow movement. The more mass, the more momentum, the greater the likelihood of taking a tumble if there is an abrupt change of direction or coming to a halt.

[Gizmo]

Apples and oranges. Of course any automaton can be set to autopilot on a treadmill. Negotiating movement through a cluttered, unstructured terrain is vastly more difficult. And four legs provides greater stability than just two.

I think that the sheer mass of the power loader also had something to do with its relatively slow movement. The more mass, the more momentum, the greater the likelihood of taking a tumble if there is an abrupt change of direction or coming to a halt.

Twice? Come on... These robots are crude utterly stone-age compared to equipment on a starship; yet they already do this. That Asimo video shows the robot running, jumping, avoiding obstructions, and there are other videos of it playing tag with kids on a playground. It's a given; a moot point. 'Aliens' also included Bishop you know.

Aside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPoANTKo5kA

All this was somewhat related to the concept of power armor and how it's a self-supporting robot that moves where the occupant suggests ~via their intended movement. While I would not think that infantry PA would normally be set to 'walk' in combat, I do think that it would be possible to do this for general forced marching. I also think that a PA suit that was combat ready would react similarly to the BigDog being kicked if it were itself kicked and beginning to fall ~this independent of the occupant's attempt (or inability) to remain standing. I'd think that a combat ready armor could return to base with an unconscious operator.

[CaptainPatch]

Aside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPoANTKo5kA

"...in a known, fixed configuration...", "...with fixed velocities that are known in advance."
Take away that "known" and the programming that provided the correct path and timing, and what you get is a lot of stumbling.

The biggest problem with an an automaton's autonomous operation is that it is chained to its programming. If the programmer didn't anticipate an obstacle, the automaton CAN'T "see" it, and thus avoid it. Even if you tie in radar and similar sensors to detect obstacles, the programmer must have coded in precisely how to avoid the obstacle. "Smart" missiles have the simple advantage that the necessary programming to avoid interception simply states "STAY AWAY!" from non-targeted objects. MUCH easier to accomplish in an aerial environment than across cluttered terrain. This is why remotely operated vehicles require a human operator 100% of the time, to deal with situations that the programmer didn't put into the code.

[Gizmo]

Aside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPoANTKo5kA

"...in a known, fixed configuration...", "...with fixed velocities that are known in advance."
Take away that "known" and the programming that provided the correct path and timing, and what you get is a lot of stumbling.

I'm at a loss.... All I can say is watch the clip again; better yet, watch the clip at around the two minute mark.

Why the Asimo would have any perceived bearing on the conversation other than to demonstrate that a primitive 2012 robot is capable of this on a limited scale (already)... is a mystery to me; it just is. No one can present to you a live recording of the actual power loader actually being used, but it should be obvious that the technology will continually improve every few months, and by the time of the film's setting the problems would have been long since solved and made it into the realm of accepted commercial industrial equipment.

*Absolutely nothing of the remainder of your post would apply to the situation at that point even though I agree with you on the current state of our own technology.

As for PA's in WL2... if they have it, I will assume that it's effectively identical to the prototype suits that we have in development (as they might be once perfected). I will also assume (unless officially stated otherwise) that the armor either reacts to the operator's nerves, or has tactile pressure sensors to react to instead. In either case it's not clothing in the sense that platemail armor is clothing, and it's not a device to improve upon somone's strength; it's has it's own independent strength and the operator indicates that it lift, so it lifts... but the operator could be a pro weight lifter or an 86 pound self professed geek (and proud of it), and the armor would lift no more or no less. In this respect, the machine is little different than a modern forklift.

[CaptainPatch]

Obviously we have two distinctly different opinions as to what is or what won't be possible 100 years from now. Accordingly, .... Agree to disagree?

[Gizmo]

Obviously we have two distinctly different opinions as to what is or what won't be possible 100 years from now. Accordingly, .... Agree to disagree?

Sure

Nearest I can tell, Aliens seems to be set in the year 2167, so the Power loader would be 155 years more advanced than our current state of the art walkers. AFAIK we've only been at it less than 40 years and already have the Asimo and other more dynamic walkers.

[CaptainPatch]

Nearest I can tell, Aliens seems to be set in the year 2167, so the Power loader would be 155 years more advanced than our current state of the art walkers. AFAIK we've only been at it less than 40 years and already have the Asimo and other more dynamic walkers.

There's the further distinction that in the Wasteland setting, the world of tech development was pretty much on hold for about 80 years because of the worldwide upheaval caused by a nuclear war. [Not sure of the Aliens chronology between 2000 and 2167. Any nuclear wars mentioned?]

[Woolfe]

Nearest I can tell, Aliens seems to be set in the year 2167, so the Power loader would be 155 years more advanced than our current state of the art walkers. AFAIK we've only been at it less than 40 years and already have the Asimo and other more dynamic walkers.

There's the further distinction that in the Wasteland setting, the world of tech development was pretty much on hold for about 80 years because of the worldwide upheaval caused by a nuclear war. [Not sure of the Aliens chronology between 2000 and 2167. Any nuclear wars mentioned?]

True but in the Wasteland world, the tech level prior to Nuclear war was higher in some points than our current tech level...

[tuluse]

Aside:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPoANTKo5kA

"...in a known, fixed configuration...", "...with fixed velocities that are known in advance."
Take away that "known" and the programming that provided the correct path and timing, and what you get is a lot of stumbling.

The biggest problem with an an automaton's autonomous operation is that it is chained to its programming. If the programmer didn't anticipate an obstacle, the automaton CAN'T "see" it, and thus avoid it. Even if you tie in radar and similar sensors to detect obstacles, the programmer must have coded in precisely how to avoid the obstacle. "Smart" missiles have the simple advantage that the necessary programming to avoid interception simply states "STAY AWAY!" from non-targeted objects. MUCH easier to accomplish in an aerial environment than across cluttered terrain. This is why remotely operated vehicles require a human operator 100% of the time, to deal with situations that the programmer didn't put into the code.

You don't need radar, I would use some kind of pressure sensor on the bottom of the feet. The robot would push increasing hard amounts until had full weight on the foot, if the ground gave away it would pull back or in the case of power armor alert the pilot with a force feedback type thing. Also, power armor in Fallout would be heavy enough and the feet big enough it wouldn't have to worry about most obstacles it could just smash most rocks.

On another note this whole conversation is ludicrous. Power Armor was in Wasteland. Thus is it possible in the Wasteland universe. It's already canon. It doesn't matter how many advances real technology would have to make to build it, or if it's even possible. That's the point of science fiction, you can imagine what is possible instead of only allowing what has been done as of 2012 AD.

[CaptainPatch]

The robot would push increasing hard amounts until had full weight on the foot, if the ground gave away it would pull back or in the case of power armor alert the pilot with a force feedback type thing. Also, power armor in Fallout would be heavy enough and the feet big enough it wouldn't have to worry about most obstacles it could just smash most rocks.

This is where wheels and tracks work better than feet. With pedal motion, while one foot is elevated, the unit must balance itself on the one foot. As the elevated foot descends it hits a Point Of No Return; it's either complete the step or take a tumble from being unbalanced. To smoothly walk requires perception of the surface being traversed, evaluation of the path to be taken, and coordination of the limbs being interfaced with what has been seen and evaluated. Human beings can generally conduct the exercise on "autopilot" because even when we're "not paying attention", their subconscious is. This is why a person can be blithely walking along but suddenly stops before tripping in a pothole. Even with that "autopilot" feature -- walking and talking on a cell, for instance -- people _still_ occasionally trip. For an autonomous mechanical, it's core programming would require that EVERY contingency be programmed in in order to successfully negotiate any kind of mundane obstacle course. (Significant advantage to quadrapeds over bipeds. Even more advantage to hexapods. Which sort of helps to rationalize the Scorpitron.) Or conversely, a default code of "If you don't recognize it, GO AROUND IT."

On another note this whole conversation is ludicrous. Power Armor was in Wasteland. Thus is it possible in the Wasteland universe. It's already canon. It doesn't matter how many advances real technology would have to make to build it, or if it's even possible. That's the point of science fiction, you can imagine what is possible instead of only allowing what has been done as of 2012 AD.

This would be the case if there had been NO errors, mistakes, misconceptions, erroneous assumptions AT ALL in the original. Extreme analogy: if an original purported that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but in the interim scientists learned that it's just the reverse, would you demand that the sequel MUST maintain that Earth-centric assertion? After all, that is what was in the original, and therefore makes it unalterable canon, apparently. I prefer to allow the developers the freedom to rethink most canon items if they are so inclined. And if they conclude that alternate approaches to some things are called for, fine. Just so long as the final product remains entertaining.

True but in the Wasteland world, the tech level prior to Nuclear war was higher in some points than our current tech level...

Wow. Science on uber-steroids. A less-than-20-year acceleration period produces results that are still a half-century or more away. Maybe we should underscore the genre as being Science FICTION.

[Woolfe]

On another note this whole conversation is ludicrous. Power Armor was in Wasteland. Thus is it possible in the Wasteland universe. It's already canon. It doesn't matter how many advances real technology would have to make to build it, or if it's even possible. That's the point of science fiction, you can imagine what is possible instead of only allowing what has been done as of 2012 AD.

This would be the case if there had been NO errors, mistakes, misconceptions, erroneous assumptions AT ALL in the original. Extreme analogy: if an original purported that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but in the interim scientists learned that it's just the reverse, would you demand that the sequel MUST maintain that Earth-centric assertion? After all, that is what was in the original, and therefore makes it unalterable canon, apparently. I prefer to allow the developers the freedom to rethink most canon items if they are so inclined. And if they conclude that alternate approaches to some things are called for, fine. Just so long as the final product remains entertaining.

True but in the Wasteland world, the tech level prior to Nuclear war was higher in some points than our current tech level...

Wow. Science on uber-steroids. A less-than-20-year acceleration period produces results that are still a half-century or more away. Maybe we should underscore the genre as being Science FICTION.

Well Yes... It is Science FICTION....
The original game had power armour. Plain and simple, it also had energy weapons, fusion power packs and androids, as well as scorpitron killing machines, Cybernetics, "thinking" AI, etc etc etc...

In that world it is quite reasonable to assume that the same technology that allowed Androids to think and talk and move around without being obviously robots, could be applied to a simpler item such as power armour.

As for tracks vs Wheels vs Bipedal. Tracks and Wheels excel in some areas, but there is territory they simply cannot go, whereas a Bipedal system that was capable of working with or even enhancing a humans normal movement would have many fewer restrictions.

[CaptainPatch]

As for tracks vs Wheels vs Bipedal. Tracks and Wheels excel in some areas, but there is territory they simply cannot go, whereas a Bipedal system that was capable of working with or even enhancing a humans normal movement would have many fewer restrictions.

So, every approach has its pluses and minuses, advantages and disadvantages, things at which it excels and things at which it doesn't do so well. Soooo, what _should_ be the minuses, disadvantages, and things at which Power Armor does not do so well?

[Woolfe]

As for tracks vs Wheels vs Bipedal. Tracks and Wheels excel in some areas, but there is territory they simply cannot go, whereas a Bipedal system that was capable of working with or even enhancing a humans normal movement would have many fewer restrictions.

So, every approach has its pluses and minuses, advantages and disadvantages, things at which it excels and things at which it doesn't do so well. Soooo, what _should_ be the minuses, disadvantages, and things at which Power Armor does not do so well?

Speed would be my first guess.
Stability as well. As in Power armoured infantry can carry(and fire) big guns, but a tracked tank can carry bigger.
Tracked may be better at traversing "soft" terrain. (Altho I can't back that up with anything)
Power armour theoretically has many of the advantages of infantry with some of the advantages of Armour.
Size. Altho thats really the issue of normal inf vs power armour inf. Compare to Tank and Car, Power armour should be smaller.

I'm sure there would be others.

[tuluse]

On another note this whole conversation is ludicrous. Power Armor was in Wasteland. Thus is it possible in the Wasteland universe. It's already canon. It doesn't matter how many advances real technology would have to make to build it, or if it's even possible. That's the point of science fiction, you can imagine what is possible instead of only allowing what has been done as of 2012 AD.

This would be the case if there had been NO errors, mistakes, misconceptions, erroneous assumptions AT ALL in the original. Extreme analogy: if an original purported that the Sun revolves around the Earth, but in the interim scientists learned that it's just the reverse, would you demand that the sequel MUST maintain that Earth-centric assertion? After all, that is what was in the original, and therefore makes it unalterable canon, apparently. I prefer to allow the developers the freedom to rethink most canon items if they are so inclined. And if they conclude that alternate approaches to some things are called for, fine. Just so long as the final product remains entertaining.

If the Sun rotating around the Earth was as integral to the game as power armor was, yes I would say they should keep that.

Wasteland is a fictional universe, not the real world.

[CaptainPatch]

If the Sun rotating around the Earth was as integral to the game as power armor was, yes I would say they should keep that.

But PA wasn't integral to game. What was required to survive to the end was the Armor Class. That is, you needed something that had AC 14 and soaked up a substantial amount of damage. Mechanics-wise, the same AC could be provided by things like a personal force field belt rated to AC14, or a lightweight composite material "lobster shell" body armor, or... whatever thing the designers concoct. The only requirement would be that it provides an adequate Armor Class.

[Mandemon]

Soo... Force Field is absolutely OK, but PA is not?

You make no sense to me, you know that Patch? You object to PA in a game where there is tons and tons of stuff that is either impossible or impractical...

[Drool]

Wow. Science on uber-steroids. A less-than-20-year acceleration period produces results that are still a half-century or more away. Maybe we should underscore the genre as being Science FICTION.

Um... yes? Was this ever in doubt? I mean, did you think it was a realistic post-apocalypse simulator until you got to Vegas?