Other WMDs: Biological, Chemical, etc.

[Quanti]

Biological and Chemical weapons could be used for mission story or plot pieces that fit with the setting. Chemical weapons could even be used in a fight, if you could come up with a practical platform, or give the party access to large stationary rocket launchers or mortars with Chemical munitions, etc. The germ warfare stuff I think would be more useful as a plot element. Bad guys bomb a town with Anthrax, somebody accidentally detonates bombs with plague/smallpox/etc. creating conflict situation. Bad guys kill the party with long range VX gas attack if the player wound up at the wrong end of a series of bad decisions, etc.

I think these provide interesting possibilities for a grim game like WL2.

[Quanti]

You could also include Bioweapons designed against plants- the Soviets were weaponizing diseases to kill off crops during the arms race. I'd imagine the WL universe Soviets did so too. Find undetonated wheat rust cluster bombs, destroy a settlement or region's food supply, etc.

[Zeronet]

I think another line of though on this would be having areas that need to be explored in full NBC gear not just radiation, but chemical and biological agents.

[clippedwolf]

Wasteland takes place 70 years after WWIII.
Chemical weapons breakdown overtime. Even VX would dissolve over 70 years; what it breaks down to is still toxic, but it is no longer VX.
The US stockpiles of chemical weapons were in Maryland far from the Wasteland map.

With that mentioined, NBC gear breaks down overtime, even in it's original vacuum-sealed packages. Level A (fully encapsulated) , and Level B (splash protection) suits last a few years if cared for in a climate controlled container. US miliary MOPP gear has a shelf life of around 5 years unopened. Even if you have a servicable suit, depending on the contaminant you have minutes (chlorine) to a day (military MOPP in a low concentrated chemical environment) before the contamination permeates the suit's protective layer.
You need an air supply for a NBC mission. Filters come up with the same issue of shelf life. SCBA, self-contained breathing apparatus- needs to be maintained, your rubber seals and such would have rotted by now.
Summed up: you can't depend on pre-war tech much.

You can make your own canisters, going off of WW1 level tech, using charcoal in your filter. A manufacturing center might be able to make a suit resembling old BDO's, sandwiching a layer of activated charcoal between layers of fabric. Anything not metal, butane rubber, silicon, or the like is one-time use.

[Infinitron]

Hmm, biological and chemical weapons only became a common fictional trope in the 90's (in the wake of the Gulf War and the Yugoslav Wars). In the 80's it was still all about the nukes.

(Though that didn't stop the Enclave from wanting to use FEV as a bioweapon in Fallout 2)

[Quanti]

Hmm, biological and chemical weapons only became a common fictional trope in the 90's (in the wake of the Gulf War and the Yugoslav Wars). In the 80's it was still all about the nukes.

(Though that didn't stop the Enclave from wanting to use FEV as a bioweapon in Fallout 2)

In the news and pop culture, etc. you are right. But secretly, the Soviets had the largest bioweapons program in history running full steam ahead during the 80s. It was a part of their strategic plan for a nuclear war: Nuclear first strike or retaliation, followed by a strategic bioweapons strike(plague, smallpox, wheat rust, etc. delivered by SS-18, other big ICBMs), with the Perimeter system as the dead hand or strike from the grave option in case the leadership was killed during the conflict.

So, they would nuke us, and send the germs to help kill off anybody that survived the main nuke target zone in addition to destroying our food supply. They also had plans a research to grow crops that would survive after a nuclear holocaust.

But that's the actual timeline, I don't know how that stuff would be incorporated into the WL universe timeline. I would assume the USSR would have even more robust bio/chem options in the WL universe, since it is implied that the arms race continued with the Soviets able to keep up with the US. This would mean the Soviet economy didn't stagnate and implode during the 70s/80s like it did in reality.

So, I know that's sort of getting off topic, but for me, the more the fantasy is based on fact, the better.

[tuluse]

Hmm, biological and chemical weapons only became a common fictional trope in the 90's (in the wake of the Gulf War and the Yugoslav Wars). In the 80's it was still all about the nukes.

(Though that didn't stop the Enclave from wanting to use FEV as a bioweapon in Fallout 2)

Well except for all the Vietnam movies with agent orange, and all the sci-fi books about alien diseases.

[Color Blotch]

It was a part of their strategic plan for a nuclear war: Nuclear first strike or retaliation, followed by a strategic bioweapons strike(plague, smallpox, wheat rust, etc. delivered by SS-18, other big ICBMs), with the Perimeter system as the dead hand or strike from the grave option in case the leadership was killed during the conflict.

Well, ICBM is actually quite impractical platform for bio weapons. A warhead hitting the ground at speed of 7 km/s isn't very likely to deliver a lot of contagious pathogens. And you don't want to shoot bacterias or viruses into your enemy, because those would take forever to spread. For a fast effect you need infected insects or rodents. You can imagine how many of those would survive a warhead landing. If you want to use bio weapons you have to rely on either bombs or canisters. Considering the difficulty of delivering those all the way over the ocean, the likelihood of SU using bio weapons against US was very, very low. If anything, SU was much likelier target at that.

[TΛPETRVE]

Jagged Alliance 2 had one of the most vile weapons ever to grace a video game: Sulphur mustard grenades. I wonder if we're going to get to see something like this in WL2.

[clippedwolf]

Well, ICBM is actually quite impractical platform for bio weapons. A warhead hitting the ground at speed of 7 km/s isn't very likely to deliver a lot of contagious pathogens. And you don't want to shoot bacterias or viruses into your enemy, because those would take forever to spread. For a fast effect you need infected insects or rodents. You can imagine how many of those would survive a warhead landing. If you want to use bio weapons you have to rely on either bombs or canisters. Considering the difficulty of delivering those all the way over the ocean, the likelihood of SU using bio weapons against US was very, very low. If anything, SU was much likelier target at that.

If you can get a nuke to do an arial burst I'm sure you can get your Bioweapon's shipping container to also do a low arial burst which would be an effective way of delivering a it. I'm sure those deploying these weapons would know to make sure the burst isn't too hot and things like that.

[Color Blotch]

If you can get a nuke to do an arial burst

At 7 km/s? No you can't. Stuff tends to instantly ignite when dispersed against air stream at such speed.

[Quanti]

It was a part of their strategic plan for a nuclear war: Nuclear first strike or retaliation, followed by a strategic bioweapons strike(plague, smallpox, wheat rust, etc. delivered by SS-18, other big ICBMs), with the Perimeter system as the dead hand or strike from the grave option in case the leadership was killed during the conflict.

Well, ICBM is actually quite impractical platform for bio weapons. A warhead hitting the ground at speed of 7 km/s isn't very likely to deliver a lot of contagious pathogens. And you don't want to shoot bacterias or viruses into your enemy, because those would take forever to spread. For a fast effect you need infected insects or rodents. You can imagine how many of those would survive a warhead landing. If you want to use bio weapons you have to rely on either bombs or canisters. Considering the difficulty of delivering those all the way over the ocean, the likelihood of SU using bio weapons against US was very, very low. If anything, SU was much likelier target at that.

You are correct about the ICBM issues, and I'm not sure what the actual USSR developed for strategic delivery of BW, I think that part of their program(delivery methods) was never revealed or declassified. I could be mistaken about the SS-18 conversion to use BW, and I don't know if there were any ways to create a warhead that slows on entry and disperses bomblets. I want to say I read about a plan to make SS-18 compatible BW warheads somewhere but I could be confused.
Cruise missiles, on the other hand, would certainly work.

The US program had bomblets like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M143_bomblet
That could be put on surface to surface Honest John missiles.

Of course, in our WL universe, we could assume that the USSR kept developing C/B Weapons and delivery methods up until the war, so you could use theoretical designs or made up advanced delivery methods if you wanted to.

In the real world, the Soviets did create some hybrid agents and may have created some totally new pathogens with their genetic research program. You could come up with some crazy diseases used in weapons in the WL universe.

[Infinitron]

Hmm, biological and chemical weapons only became a common fictional trope in the 90's (in the wake of the Gulf War and the Yugoslav Wars). In the 80's it was still all about the nukes.

(Though that didn't stop the Enclave from wanting to use FEV as a bioweapon in Fallout 2)

Well except for all the Vietnam movies with agent orange, and all the sci-fi books about alien diseases.

Agent Orange wasn't a chemical weapon.

Which sci-fi books?

[Quanti]

Agent Orange wasn't a chemical weapon.

I think Agent Orange does indeed qualify as a chemical weapon, even though it was not directly designed to kill humans.
See this article on herbicidal warfare, described as a form of chemical warfare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbicidal_warfare

[Turkeysocks]

The problem is that Biological and Chemical weapons all have a shelf life that would have them expire long before the time of Wasteland even started, even if they are properly cared for the entire time.

The only way for there to be biological/chemical weapons is either they create some kind of "super" bio/chem weapon, or someone/faction is actively researching and creating new ones.

Which would be an interesting idea, have a faction actively creating and using Bio/Chem weapons against anyone who refuses to obey them, and the Rangers have to go in and wipe them out or something along those lines. Or even have the Rangers be able to create them and use them as well.

[Quanti]

The problem is that Biological and Chemical weapons all have a shelf life that would have them expire long before the time of Wasteland even started, even if they are properly cared for the entire time.

The only way for there to be biological/chemical weapons is either they create some kind of "super" bio/chem weapon, or someone/faction is actively researching and creating new ones.

Which would be an interesting idea, have a faction actively creating and using Bio/Chem weapons against anyone who refuses to obey them, and the Rangers have to go in and wipe them out or something along those lines. Or even have the Rangers be able to create them and use them as well.

Good point about shelf life. You could throw in some fiction about super stable binary weapons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_chemical_weapon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent

that could remain ready to use for hundreds of years if you wanted to go with an old world tech story. You could use an idea like yours- maybe a faction that has discovered a manufacturing facility with plans/formulas and has a supply chain/raw materials to manufacture new chemical agents.