Targeted Shots

[TΛPETRVE]

As for achieving blindness itself... there are much better, other ways of doing that.

Flashbangs. Mutated lizards spewing acid. Visual impairment usually comes from indirect damage.

[Gizmo]

Its either instant death because you hit the head in that very weak spot which necessitates that the bullet penetrated inside into it.

But it doesn't mean that ; In Fallout, when you aim for the head and score a whopping 6 points of critical damage... that just means you nicked the head (or even the ear cartilage). Scoring a hit on the eye is the same ~it's not a guaranteed direct hit ~it's just a hit; and that hit may be their eyelashes with their head turned sideways. In Fallout a good critical hit to the head, eye, or torso, will instantly kill. The difference between crittically hitting the head and eye in the game is that even the poorest critical to the eye does double damage and risks blindness (via Stat check!); and most shots ignore the armor. Better hits are guaranteed to blind.

Greater criticals to the head will cause a knockdown; but to the eye it's a knockout; and could cause the loss of a turn.

All eye shots do better damage, but come at a greater risk for the attempt. I would like it (if they do targeted shots) if the targets had combat mechanic related effects and not just damage; damage to APs; to accuracy, and turn loss... In this (since they are (seemingly) straying from Wasteland's series combat), Fallout's Aimed shot mechanic is a good example to work from IMO.

[Hiver]

As for achieving blindness itself... there are much better, other ways of doing that.

Flashbangs. Mutated lizards spewing acid. Visual impairment usually comes from indirect damage.

Yes, exactly.

Its either instant death because you hit the head in that very weak spot which necessitates that the bullet penetrated inside into it.

But it doesn't mean that ; In Fallout, when you aim for the head and score a whopping 6 points of critical damage... that just means you nicked the head (or even the ear cartilage). Scoring a hit on the eye is the same ~it's not a guaranteed direct hit ~it's just a hit; and that hit may be their eyelashes with their head turned sideways.

I knew someone will reply with this. No it isnt. A hit in the eyes isnt just nicking, the game doesnt provide any mechanic or feedback for "oh i hit you in the eye from exactly the right angle so i only hurt your eye or your eyelash."

If you hit the eyes its from the front - its simply ludicrous.

In Fallout a good critical hit to the head, eye, or torso, will instantly kill. The difference between crittically hitting the head and eye in the game is that even the poorest critical to the eye does double damage and risks blindness (via Stat check!); and most shots ignore the armor. Better hits are guaranteed to blind.

Dont like it, never did, never will.

but to the eye it's a knockout; and could cause the loss of a turn.

Doesnt make sense. It takes too many hand-waves for me to believe that. I never used eye shots in fallout.

Because they are so cheesy. I went for groin shots when i needed something done instead of going just for higher damage hand waving. Went for a lot of arm and legs criticals but those didnt seem to work on enemies as good as on me so i had to give up most of the time.

I would like it (if they do targeted shots) if the targets had combat mechanic related effects and not just damage; damage to APs; to accuracy, and turn loss... In this (since they are (seemingly) straying from Wasteland's series combat), Fallout's Aimed shot mechanic is a good example to work from IMO.

Yes. Lets start by removing eye shots and keeping whats good.

[suz]

Yes. Lets start by removing eye shots and keeping whats good.

Lets start by removing groin shots then.
You can't even see how the strudel is packed in the pants, let alone know where the nuts are or if the target even has them, what if it's a mutilation victim? You can only shoot in the general direction of it and hope for the best(or worst).

If you start hyper-realism trend then you may aswell scrap the whole game. Hitting a person wearing leather jacket anywhere near body mass by 9mm para should pierce a lung/heart/stomach and the person shouldn't continue fighting - they fall down in pain and weep.

Eye shots are there to signify highest ability of targeting - between armor plates and such.

[Hiver]

Im not invoking reality alone here.

Shooting anyone near the area of the groin, even if that someone is wearing a codpiece of armor will produce enough pain to knock them down, or to make them loose a turn, or to make them walk funny for even few more turns.
It takes some handwavium but not that much. I beraly need to lift my gatl... hand.

Plus its funny... and very satisfying if you happen to find some rapists in the game. Plus it doesnt rely on just multiplying damage so it isnt a cheap exploit in that sense.

As i explained above, the eye shots are so completely ludicrous that i need to wave with both of my gatling guns... err.. coughh.. hands and even a few legs too in order to accept them.

[Gizmo]

Its either instant death because you hit the head in that very weak spot which necessitates that the bullet penetrated inside into it.

But it doesn't mean that ; In Fallout, when you aim for the head and score a whopping 6 points of critical damage... that just means you nicked the head (or even the ear cartilage). Scoring a hit on the eye is the same ~it's not a guaranteed direct hit ~it's just a hit; and that hit may be their eyelashes with their head turned sideways.

I knew someone will reply with this. No it isnt. A hit in the eyes isnt just nicking, the game doesnt provide any mechanic or feedback for "oh i hit you in the eye from exactly the right angle so i only hurt your eye or your eyelash."

If you hit the eyes its from the front - its simply ludicrous.

BoguS... The feedback is the damage score. ; Simply obvious.

** You cannot know that it's a hit from the front; or anything at all other than it's a hit (of some kind). The damage indicates the severity (and implies whatever circumstance that would suit the result).

*** I would say (a guess), that any hit to the eye that did not result in blindness, was not a direct hit; (and may not have even hit sclera at all ~or they were very lucky).

I never used eye shots in fallout.

Because they are so cheesy. I went for groin shots when i needed something done instead of going just for higher damage hand waving. Went for a lot of arm and legs criticals but those didnt seem to work on enemies as good as on me so i had to give up most of the time.

You should have a look at the critical hit tables.

[Drool]

Plus [groin shots are] funny...

Not especially.

[Woolfe]

BoguS... The feedback is the damage score. ; Simply obvious.

** You cannot know that it's a hit from the front; or anything at all other than it's a hit (of some kind). The damage indicates the severity (and implies whatever circumstance that would suit the result).

*** I would say (a guess), that any hit to the eye that did not result in blindness, was not a direct hit; (and may not have even hit sclera at all ~or they were very lucky).

I think this comes down to the good old hit point mechanic again. With a targeted shot, especially on something like the eyes, how can you justify any degree of damage as being "light".

Plus [groin shots are] funny...

Not especially.

I guess it depends on whether you are the Shooter or the Shootee

[Hiver]

** You cannot know that it's a hit from the front; or anything at all other than it's a hit (of some kind). The damage indicates the severity (and implies whatever circumstance that would suit the result).

You cannot know anything different because the game has no way to represent it, even visually.

You can only privately imagine the amount of damage indicates whatever fancies you.

I cannot. Not enough hands. Cant wave fast enough.


I could go with it ... i guess, if it was extremely, extremely difficult... and available only where it would make sense.
Like having an enemy whose head is so well armored that only weak point are the eyes. Or mutant of a monster having similar defenses.

For ordinary humans...there is no need to aim for the eyes at all. Who ever the hell heard about anyone aiming for the eyes of an enemy in modern combat since fire weapons were invented?....
Aiming for and hitting the head is good enough, and even that is generally advised against in military or police training on account of being a much more difficult target to hit then the torso.

It is also much more believable that a nick head shot would cause a wound that would cause blindness.


How about this type of abbreviation/improvement to the old cheese shot?

[suz]

For ordinary humans...there is no need to aim for...

Anything in particular. Any hit can be lethal.
Hitting the leg can rip an artery and a human will be dead from blood loss with minutes.
Barely hitting the neck can rip artery and the person bleeds out in minutes.
Hitting the stomach will spill half digested food+acids and cause infection that'll lead to death in most cases.
Hitting nearly any unarmored spot with hollow point will fuck up anything human sized.


But this is fantasy, that means many real world mechanics are given away to make way for other fun things.
You find groin shots fun and realistic.
Other people find eye shots realistic(and they are with a sniper rifle).

In my opinion they're both equally unrealistic because when bullets fly around you aim for body mass and hope for the best.

It's called opinions and it's up to the devs on what to implement.

[Hiver]

Not true.
It isnt opinions but - facts.

I wasnt talking about effects of a hit to different parts of the body in the sense you wrote about.

I WAS TALKING about aiming preferences itself. There is no need to aim the eyes - precisely because of all those effects other, much easier targets, can achieve.
Nobody ever aims for the eyes - you aim for the head shot. (unless there is a very specific reason that makes the eyes the only target with weakness, as i explained).

[tuluse]

Neither Wasteland 1 nor the Fallout series realistically modeled damage from bullets.

The violence was supposed to be over the top and funny, groin shots, cutting people in half with lasers, etc.

[TΛPETRVE]

I just saw alpha footage of an upcoming turn-based RPG named Underrail (formerly Timelapse Vertigo), which has a simple (and a bit clunkily implemented), but interesting mechanic: Targetting methods are implemented as character-specific abilities that go straight for effect instead of fiddling with body parts. So there's e.g. "aimed shot", which guarantees a critical hit, "kneecap shot", which stuns enemies and inflicts bleeding, and "sniper shot", which instead of dealing a critical hit inflicts roughly twice the base damage and can only be used while going stealth.

[Woolfe]

I just saw alpha footage of an upcoming turn-based RPG named Underrail (formerly Timelapse Vertigo), which has a simple (and a bit clunkily implemented), but interesting mechanic: Targetting methods are implemented as character-specific abilities that go straight for effect instead of fiddling with body parts. So there's e.g. "aimed shot", which guarantees a critical hit, "kneecap shot", which stuns enemies and inflicts bleeding, and "sniper shot", which instead of dealing a critical hit inflicts roughly twice the base damage and can only be used while going stealth.

That's interesting.

So perhaps you call your shot, but the game actually performs it.

Aimed Kill shot - This is the standard aimed shot, when you use it your skill level determines what you are shooting at. Low skill might result in a general aim at the head, whillt a high skill might result in a perfect "triangle" shot.

Aimed Disabling shot - As above, but the idea is to put down without killing where possible. So aiming at the legs, then Knees, and groin etc.

Aimed Disarm shot - As above but this is aimed at the arms and the weapon.

[Gizmo]

That's interesting.

So perhaps you call your shot, but the game actually performs it.

The game (video) reminds me of Summoner [SSI]; but it's very obviously "Fallout but not". I liked how it handled the Air vents; and how it handled the auto turrets ~almost the same way as Splinter Cell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXyCpVbKEKw

[TΛPETRVE]

Actually, this sort of mechanic would go much better in hand with the much-cited "old school" approach craved by many of our Ranger elders, esp. Mr. Krellen, as it does make the impact of your characters' stats much more immediate and just feels more RPG-like overall.

Sure, at the end of the day, it does not really matter if you directly target an enemy's leg on a paperdoll or choose "stun shot" from an action menu, as the desired and ultimately achieved effect is pretty much the same. But at the same time, it at least pretends to to away with some unnecessary micromanagement on the surface, without actually changing the underlying mechanics and losing any of its complexity at all, despite probably feeling "dumbed down" towards the crowd of self-proclaimed hardcore tacticians.

[Woolfe]

Actually, this sort of mechanic would go much better in hand with the much-cited "old school" approach craved by many of our Ranger elders, esp. Mr. Krellen, as it does make the impact of your characters' stats much more immediate and just feels more RPG-like overall.

Sure, at the end of the day, it does not really matter if you directly target an enemy's leg on a paperdoll or choose "stun shot" from an action menu, as the desired and ultimately achieved effect is pretty much the same. But at the same time, it at least pretends to to away with some unnecessary micromanagement on the surface, without actually changing the underlying mechanics and losing any of its complexity at all, despite probably feeling "dumbed down" towards the crowd of self-proclaimed hardcore tacticians.

I agree, in the course of the various discussions around Hit points and targeted shots I have been more and more against the mix of the 2 systems. But this would allow targeted shots in such a way that I think would be workable.

I don't think it would necessarily be dumbed down. And it would support the Skill base settings.

[Drool]

I agree, in the course of the various discussions around Hit points and targeted shots I have been more and more against the mix of the 2 systems.

Eh. The two systems have been mixed dozens of times over the years, especially in PnP games. Everything from Warhammer Fantasy to Call of Cthulhu has HP and called shots working together, generally with limbs having a percentage of the total HP in their pool, special effects for the pool in a given location being depleted, and removal of all HP resulting in death. It can be a clunky system, and usually also results in every shot having a hit location generated even if not aimed, but it's perfectly workable.

[TΛPETRVE]

I don't think it would necessarily be dumbed down. And it would support the Skill base settings.

As I said, the mechanism is pretty much identical to the "target limb" approach, only that you don't aim at the enemy's kneecap itself, but choose a predefined ability with the desired effect of stunning an enemy, that is, all things considered, still equal in translation with the paperdoll method of Fallout.

Now the tacticool kids would soon come running and cry "Hurr durr, that's like 'pressing X to kill'. Targetting specific body parts is much more complex." No, it is not. In Fallout you aim at body parts for a desired effect. You don't shoot an enemy in the leg, because it looks so cool in western movies when the hero makes his enemies dance like muppets. You shoot an enemy in the leg to hamstring him and strongly reduce his mobility. Only that no big red sign flashes up, saying "Shoot leg to cripple". The effect is the same. And while always being able to target any body part you want might give you a little bit more direct control over your character on the surface, it doesn't change a thing about the underlying calculations. On the contrary, having to figure out how it ties in with the characters' stats makes things just unnecessarily obtuse.

Granted, it removes one step of thinking for the player - you don't have to figure out for yourself where exactly you have to hit an enemy to cause a specific effect (assumed it wasn't anatomically obvious from the beginning). But then, even non-humanoid enemies are usually built with the same preconception in mind: They have a motion and a sensory apparatus and one or several vital organs, and they're usually very easy to discern. So in the end, things boil mostly down to cosmetics, anyway.

[Hiver]

I could go with that easily. It is the same thing in execution - its just that the presentation is different.

Also, i already said it - but i would like to see these targeting options increasing based on knowledge we gather in different ways through the gameplay itself - when we are dealing with non-human enemies.

I think that would add to gameplay itself, it would increase rewards from exploration, dialogue and even broaden consequences of being good or bad to specific NPCs that have some specific knowledge about a specific mutant or creature.

It would also be very cool if killing a lot of specific creatures would increase chances for critical shots when you fight them again... seeing how your ranger "learned from experience" to hit the weak spots just in right ways and more often.