Vision Document Feedback

[Stavorguin]

@Stavorguin
Stop using strawman arguments and cheap weaseling out tactics like blaming it all on "emotional response".
If you are simply expressing your opinion - then so am i. And your opinion sucks donkey balls, mkay?
Because it is based solely on logical fallacies and strawmans.

Having a customizable UI does not mean it will automatically be "overloaded, bloated and just a pain to use" or "bring your own widgets - mess."

It can also be simple bu powerful - and ALSO CUSTOMIZABLE!

If all you want to is to warn and advise the devs not to make a mistake with it in the sense of that garbage you posted - there are better ways to go about it then using such cheap pathetic tactics as you did.

Come come, you need to calm down kiddo. It's great that you learned some new words today like "logical fallacy" and "strawman", but don't get too excited, that's bad for your condition. Here, have a cookie.

[Hiver]

Stick it where sun dont shine pal. Stop using those "new words" as arguments if you dont want to be called on it.
Not a kiddo either. Change the tune or gtfo.

anyway, onto much better things!

a mysterious broadcast whispering in Russian, a rapidfire Morse code signal, or the staccato of insane cult-speak hammered out on the radio…

I really love this angle A LOT.

It can be heard whispering and begging in the frequencies on your radio, bristling with threats from unseen enemies or people begging for help...

robots with the slow drone of a modem connection establishing as they roll in to attack...

Thus sounds utterly great and very atmospheric and i love the whole deal with the world thats alive and beckoning you in these ways (though thats not the only way of course), all the time.

[Infinitron]

Keywords. I remember this, but to be honest remembering keywords can be difficult, unless you hear it on a regular basis, or are told specifically "Maybe ask suchandsuch about that mountain.". Perhaps the keyword system can be brought into the 21st century too, by making it just a little more simple but still just as sophisticated as before.
What I would propose is a "Reminder System" to compliment the Keywords interface, it could work in a number of ways, but what I had in mind was;
You click a "Remind Me" button and it brings up a list of potential keywords, these are words that you heard through various dialogue interactions that stand out from the rest. The Remind Me button never shows you keywords that lead to Super Secret or Secret keyword interactions, but will show you anything else that is considered a unique enough word that it is potentially a keyword.

Just because to be honest, if it didn't have at least this much ease of access I would probably simply never use it, because It would be so tedious. I'm not saying no one would use it, there are probably a lot of organized, good memory individuals that would use it quite well and to their advantage. But realistically, most people would simply wait a few months and then download the Keywords FAQ from their favorite fansite. I think with some type of Reminder System in place, there is a lot more accessibility for everyone with out having to have a pad of paper and pen ready, just in case someone says something interesting.

I don't think the keywords will be super-secret "passwords" that you have to memorize. At least not most of them. The point is to ask NPCs about relevant topics. Like in Fallout, you could ask Killian about the Skullz, Gizmo, etc.
If you don't know what keywords to ask about, you're not paying attention to the setting.

[Hiver]

besides, if you dont flex your memory muscles - they start to atrophy.

I dont think Wasteland 2 should encourage physical damage in peoples brains

[Infinitron]

I must say I'm not a big fan of full UI customization. Good UI is good UI, bad UI is bad UI. Having a customizable UI means that the designer is not confident that his design is the best one. It's taking to risk of having a mediocre UI that each player has to fix. I'd prefer a well thought out, cleverly laid out interface that you cannot change than a so-so one that is completely flexible.

edit: typos

In a PC-style UI based on windows, icons and toolbars, it makes perfect sense to let the player move things around and customize them.
See: Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights

It would be weird if you couldn't, since your OS does let you customize those things.

[derekticon]

I love the vision. It's definitely a game I want to play

My impression is that the community's input had been reflected in the vision.

and hurray for 90s pop culture references

[Morgenstern72]

Motiviation
As I really like the "knowing the motivation of your NPCs" I would find it crucial that the game knows thw motivation of the player itself. On one hand it helps a player tremendously to know his short-time and long-time goals and motivations when he/she has to decide anything. I handle this myself this way in board RPGs (like Savage Worlds) and it adds another dimension for the players.
On the other hand the game (in my games the game master) can evaluate the players actions and decisions. So there is no need anymore for "alignments" or questions "why did you do that?".

How this can be implemented in a game? Mabye at the beginning with some basic questions..do you want to play a freindly guy? are you more stealthy than offensive? Whatever. But ingame it leads directly to...

Role Playing
...and to be able to choose from several options when talking to or acting in front of others. It's great to have dialogues like this "Yes, I will help you [you really mean it] / Yes, I will help you [you are not sure] / Yes, I will help you [you lie in her face]". And when the player first chose to be the friendly helpful and honest guy, maybe he can not select the last option. Or he gets some penalties on being taking serious.

That are my ideas on your ideas

[derekticon]

What's next after the Vision Document?

I look forward to the roll out of pre-production concept art - environment, characters, props etc.

[Jack Dandy]

And I forgot to mention, I really like the whole "keyword" aspect you're going to re-insert into the genre.

Lately I've started playing the Ultima games since I never touched them as a kid, and it's hard to explain, but this kind of extra.. "involvment" from the players, that demands him to play the game "outside" of the game itself, is really cool. It makes the adventure feel more "personal", in a way.

[Googolplexbyte]

The doc says that the game's party will eventually be 4 PCs + 3 NPCs, but can the mix be different? In the first Wasteland, you could make less than 4 PCs and still fill out the rest with NPCs, so you could have 3 PCs and 4 NPCs or 2 PCs and 5 NPCs. Will this game still have that option?

I certainly hopes so, though it wasn't explicitly stated I see no reason they'd force you to have 4 rangers at all times.

[Hiver]

We’re not afraid of text, and we’re not afraid to use it to emphasize and support the world in ways the environment can’t show visually.

Cause and Effect: Reactivity happens on a micro and macro level, and doesn’t stop with a single reactive event – the consequences persist and build over the course of the game, and you can continue to contribute to the consequences over time – you don’t make just one ripple in the water, you can keep sending ripples outward by repeatedly tossing stones into the world to keep the effects going.

my reaction feedback wrapped in thousand words:

[stonetoes]

Noticed some comments about taking "live prisoners"... DON'T think this is a practical idea. Interrogate them ? ... Then what ? 'Escort them to some "Prisoner of War" camp' ? I think not.
Can see it now... '100 were shot & killed while trying to escape.' - 'How many were wounded ?' - '100 were shot & killed while trying to escape !' Case closed !!!

Depends how you see it. The fact that the Ranger HQ is in a former prison, plus the fact that we will have our own base in California, suggests to me that it is feasible. Especially if we are establishing law and order in other settlements, like appointing sheriffs to keep the peace. Maybe the logistics only involve taking your prisoners to the nearest friendly faction so they can have a trial before they're hanged.

Really these kind of options are ones I'd like to see in more games where you are playing the "the good guys". With Wasteland 2 being so detailed, and bucking current trends in so many ways, I think it's the perfect game to actually explore gameplay elements like these.

[Gizmo]

The typed text interface is welcome; and been sorely missing in the last few years. I do hope they have a design for a decent text parser [ie: a lot better than Fallout's; there were some great examples long before Fallout... It would be a shame if it was just keywords IMO]. The Tell-Me-About interface in Fallout really had a lot of potential (and dialog that you often couldn't get without directly asking about certain topics. It was really neat that you could ask Harry the Supermutant about the Cathedral, and he'd recount a snippet of his past visit to them).

Also the text interface has the really cool potential for directing the PC to make very specific actions (not available via keyboard, mouse or controller); or asking NPCs about topics that are not in their standard dialog tree ~things they know, but would not think to talk to you about.

[newyawk]

Hi,

I started reading the vision document and found it a bit difficult to believe in the following part of the story. I know it's fiction and intended to set the background story, but it'd be nice if it was possible to change it into something slightly more realistic. Here's the parapgraph:

Two weeks before Citadel was due for full operation, the station transmitted a distress signal.
Undetected, a cloud of small meteorites preceded the main cluster. Though they were no threat to
Earth, Earth's satellites were a different story. Immediately after the message was sent, most of the
satellites orbiting the planet were swept clean from the sky, leaving the great powers blind. In military
panic, each sent 90 percent of their nuclear arsenals skyward. Although the destruction was
tremendous, it was not complete. Pockets of civilization remained, some even oblivious to the military
exchange.

The problem is that even for low earth orbit (LEO) satellites (altitude: 160 km to 2000 km), you'd need a _lot_ of meteorites/asteroids to take out most of the LEO satellites. If we pretend all satellites are below 500 km, the cross section area which would have to be swept have a radius of about 500+6400 = 6900 km and therefore an area of about 10^14 m^2. If we assume a typical cross sectional area of a satellite to be less than 100 m^2, we'd need about 10^12 metorites....

Technical questions for you. After a full scale nuclear exchange, the world would be on inhabited by ash and things adapted to extreme levels of radioactivity... so the whole realistic thing is shot there. BUT, lets suspend that and to my question: What happens to all satellites and electronics when the nukes go off? How far do those EMPs travel (especially any that detonate in the high atmosphere).

Does this only effect electronics that are on during this time or does it effect all electronics regardless of being on / off?

[lava3d]

"type in keywords" and "Words as Weapons" this is awesome, I love it.

[Zombra]

There is phrase in the text "Ammo is a resource." Does that means that ammo is just hard to find or you tell us that ammo is not going to be local currency? Any decision of yours is valid (you are game-designers after all ) but please, be more specific.

Well - the $1 gold standard was already established in the first Wasteland. It would be very weird for a dollar-based system to be thrown out the window for a barter system 15 years later. I think it's safe to say that bullets are just bullets in W2.

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To those of you talking about lethality: there is already a very recent thread on this subject. It really has nothing to do with the Vision Document as the VD* doesn't mention taking prisoners at all. If you want this argument to go anywhere, suggest you do it in a dedicated thread or it will get watered down by all the rest of the immediate feedback. Friendly advice.

*OK, that's an unfortunate abbreviation, but whaddaya gonna do?

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What's next after the Vision Document?

This is a very good question. It would be great to have a concrete expectation of the next communication with the devs. A biweekly Q&A chat, or even a monthly "Your top 10 FAQs addressed", or something like that, would be wonderful. Something scheduled ←important that will reliably ensure that the conversation continues. So many dev houses say, "Oh yeah, we'll be active on the forums," and then disappear for years at a time. So far I have only seen 2 devs with any presence here, and even they post very irregularly. This isn't a complaint; just an observation. Please make sure we continue to feel involved!

[Hyaon]

The vision document literally echoes when I moaned to my friends that RPGs today have lost what they're meant to be about and why. I can't wait for this to come out!

I'm wondering how the £1,000+ rewards are going to be gathered for the feedback for npc names/items etc. Will they be able to throw in a suggestion that the dev's may like?

[talkingcrows]

It's going to be a Long Winter....Nuclear and Otherwise....

[dafuzz]

In the early seventies, an astronomer located a cluster of [1]meteors that would cross Earth’s path in the
summer of ninety eight. [2]Keeping this secret was the government's top priority. First, they did not want
to panic the populace. Second, [3]they saw it as a way to get the upper-hand against the Soviets.

What?

1. The correct term is "meteoroid". A "meteor" is meteoroid that has already entered the Earth's atmosphere.
2. So the USSR are idiots (even with all of their spy satellites) and would never notice the hundreds of rockets that were fired into space in order to build a huge space station (citadel starstation).
3. Would it make the USA feel special if they destroyed the meteoroid cluster in total secrecy so that they could boast about it afterwards or what? Or were they only planning on destroying meteoroids that would destroy the USA's satellites? No easy feat seeing that meteorids can be as small as a pebble...

I do not wish to be offensive, but that story is pretty lame. You guys can do better than that.

[Kaldurenik]

Do anyone know if we are going to be able to "mod" quests directly into the main campaign or is it "side stories"?
Anyway i hope we have the option to do both and a easy way to add models / textures / scripts and so on and even the option to make your own scripts (if you have the knowledge to do it that is).