Real-world religions

[clippedwolf]

please, don`t include real world religions, instead do new, abstract ones.

it would please me of course to shoot some believers in the face, but still, it`s better to it with an abstract religion then a "real" one, because the "real" world religions "real" followers would get offended, because they are stupid.

People are stupid. This includes me, and this includes you.
All ignorant. All stupid.

Isn't generalizing fun?

[Sub-Human]

People are stupid. This includes me, and this includes you.
All ignorant. All stupid.

Isn't generalizing fun?

Ignorant, yes; stupid? Not as far as you'd think.

[dmazz]

Well the reason japanese animation handles religion badly is because 84–96 percent of the Japanese population subscribe to Buddhism or Shinto or agnostic/atheist. So when they depict Christianity it's usually in some hamfisted way.

Religion should be featured heavily due to in times of scarcity, lack of food, water, education and so on, people lean on religion more. This is evident all over the world and in history. Before public education, the church was responsible for educating the population. And for preliterate groups, the shaman/religious leader is arguably the most important person cause he has the oral history of the tribe.

So I really shouldn't have to argue why religion should feature heavily in a game called 'Wasteland', because it's self evident. People instead should be arguing why it shouldn't.

As for real religions, they resonate more with people, provide alot of contextual information completely absent from made up religions and are much deeper and richer in meaning (history, politics, ideology, symbols), so they have more to draw from. Possible controversy and developer incompetence aren't good arguments.

Also a more self serving reason is real religions being featured will increase sales.

[CaptainPatch]

Also a more self serving reason is real religions being featured will increase sales.

I don't see this as being an inevitable conclusion. Nearly universally, when religion and video games intersect it's pretty much always in the context of the avidly religious stipulating that video games are Bad. Those that are avidly gamer-oriented tend towards religiously-neutral or out and out anti-religion. Admittedly and obviously there ARE gamers that see themselves as being at least somewhat religious, but I doubt very much that many of them see themselves as being seriously religious. Adding in a substantial religious element into a video game might add enough sales to account for a few sample copies acquired by religious groups just to see if there is something in the game that might be extraordinarily offensive to religious zealots. (Such as a representation of Mohammed that would drive Islamic clergy crazy.) The number of such additional sales would be trivial at most.

[Color Blotch]

Also a more self serving reason is real religions being featured will increase sales.

"Hey man, did you hear about that new Wasteland 2 game? It features REAL CHRISTIANITY, how cool is that! You absolutely must play it!"

Hmm... No, not going to happen.

[Zombra]

Yeah. Speaking for myself, religious themes are generally a turnoff in entertainment media.

[dmazz]

Well here are few internet headlines which will buy Wasteland 2 hundreds of thousands of dollars of free publicity and by consequence increase sales.
"New video game allows ethnic cleansing"
"Muslims wage jihad in new video game"
"Virtual world koran burnings in new video game"
"Play a christian fundamentalist in new video game"

In this regard it's similar to the child killing fiasco for Fallout. Does anyone doubt that didn't increase sales? A little notoriety and controversy is good. Hardcore gamers will also respond to a hardcore rpg that has no politically correct limits, that's the core of an rpg after all, be and do anything you want. GTA is an example, first started with Carmageddon, nowadays it would be an outrage not to be able to run over and shoot innocent pedestrians.

[CaptainPatch]

"New video game allows ethnic cleansing"

That wouldn't get just the religious zealots up in arms; it would put the whole anti-GTA4 crowd on steroids. Murder and mayhem is bad enough, but _organized, MASSIVE murder and mayhem would bring out picket lines rather quickly.

"Muslims wage jihad in new video game"

This would be rather interesting, in a perverse sort of way. I could actually see Muslim zealots going, "Right on! Allahu Akbar!" and American Right-wingers saying, "See? ^^THAT^^ is why we need to DO SOMETHING about the Islamic Threat!"

"Virtual world koran burnings in new video game"

This _would_ cause an Islamic backlash, much like the Real Life Koran burnings did. And somewhere in the world, some non-Muslims WOULD be killed or injured by that backlash. Do you think the developers would want to risk having something like that on their consciences?

"Play a christian fundamentalist in new video game"

If this is the ONLY portrayal of Christianity in the game, then, yeah, there WOULD be some negative PR when various Christian leaders condemn the game. How much would be directly proportional to how many units the game sells.

[Celeborn]

OK, I can go along with your reasoning.

As for the last question ("Does it fit?"), I don't think so. Real-world religions would look weird next to the Guardians and Mushroom cultists.

Good question, and very good point. Which is why I mentioned Scientology earlier. It would fit right in! But in all seriousness maybe you're right and we should leave religion out of it. I'm not one for offending people. At least not too much.

Fallout 2 already had Scientology in it as a pretty substantial joke. If you recall, the Hubologists even had porn star versions of Nicole Kidman and Tom Criuse promoting the religion through star power. So Scientology jokes have been done (and they were pretty heavy ones too, what with the ridiculous space ship and their nonsense jargon and general cultish recruiting). If you read through all of those holodisks, the jokes just went on and on.

I loved the irreverent sense of humor in Fallout 2 and would love to see more of it. That said, of course care must be taken to not just be bigoted in the process.

If we want to take things seriously, I would look to the Black Death as an excellent example of the sorts of things I would like to see. A new sort of Flagellent movement would be perfect. Historically, they felt that humans had become corrupt and so God was punishing us. Their solution was to punish themselves so harshly that God would not have to. They would go from town to town beating and whipping themselves half to death and building up big crowds of penitent onlookers. You could even work in a Monte Python reference if you wanted to play it up as a joke.

Also, during this period the Millennialists were hugely influential. We are entering into the last days, and so God needs our help to speed up the process. The medieval Millenialists hunted down and killed Jews, Muslims, and heretics on mass so that the dead would rise and gather outside of Jerusalem, in Jehoshaphat for judgement. A big part of the Crusades, in fact, was motivated by the desire of the rich to be buried in Jehoshaphat so that they could be the first to be judged. This sort of thing could be played off very seriously without making insulting mainstream Christians. I would have the city (or military compound) of New Jehoshaphat and play up their ignorant zeal more than their Christianity. Make it clear to everyone that they do not understand the actual tenets of Christianity and even have a few token Christians comment on how nuts they are. Just make sure to not tack on a current denominational name to them, but call them something new. They may wave crosses and Bibles, but it will be clear that they are to be thought of as crazies. I would even have them protest at a Ranger's funeral, just for good measure.

Also, I am drawn to Stephen King's crazy half-memory of Christianity from the Dark Tower books. It may not have been enough time for so much to have been forgotten, though.

I general, though, even if no modern religions are shown, it would be nice to see something as small as finding cross/crucifix necklaces around in the wasteland. This is a small touch that acknowledges that at least real world religions existed at one point in the past.

[Drool]

Fallout 2 already had Scientology in it as a pretty substantial joke. If you recall, the Hubologists even had porn star versions of Nicole Kidman and Tom Criuse promoting the religion through star power. So Scientology jokes have been done

Yes, and it's frequently pointed to as a prime example of Fallout 2's excesses and one of the things everyone should avoid when making a game. Aside from the fact that it was pointlessly antagonistic to very real people, it was unfunny, forced, strained, ill fitting, and was just a giant neon sign flashing "GET IT?!?!"

[macksting]

I'm sure if they cared they'd've sued.
Probably tried. The Scientology church leadership loves to do that.

It may be unkind, but I can't help but think of Scientology as a rare thing: a "fair target."

[dmazz]

As for real religions attracting gamers. Which sounds better on the box regarding Fallout New Vegas?

'Caesar's Legion' or 'Caesar's Holy Legion'.

Clearly the second one. If Wasteland 2 had real religion behind alot of it's factions, it would perk peoples curiosity and make it virtually impossible that reviewers would be neutral and 'meh' about it.

As long as we don't insult too badly the main market of the game which are christians or ex-christians (USA, Australian, Britain and Europe), then I don't see a backlash or negative side to this.

And scientology is a 'cheap target it's not even widely recognized as a proper religion.

[CaptainPatch]

As for real religions attracting gamers. Which sounds better on the box regarding Fallout New Vegas?

'Caesar's Legion' or 'Caesar's Holy Legion'.

So, where's the "real religion" in that? It is/would be obviously fictional.

[dmazz]

Fictional but with real christian (religious) elements. (the name is derived from the holy roman empire, which was 'christian' for a time)

[CaptainPatch]

Fictional but with real christian (religious) elements. (the name is derived from the holy roman empire, which was 'christian' for a time)

Except that the Holy Roman Empire didn't form until well after the reign of Caesar. Caesar was pointedly a pagan.

[clippedwolf]

And somewhere in the world, some non-Muslims WOULD be killed or injured by that backlash.

At least 9 Muslims died and over 70 seriously injured in the backlash after the Florida Koran burning.

I don't think atheism is inherently better than theism, the Great Enlightenment-a humanistic atheist movement based on human dignity and inalienable rights- is based on ideas fostered from religious ideals. Everyone in the west seems to thinks of Islam as violent. Guess where the idea of inalienable human rights comes from? That's right, Islam. The Islamic world used to be the center for religious tolerance. Tolerance is just that-tolerance: the realization that someone has different ideas about reality and that there is nothing you should do about it. Acceptance is harder because it takes humility.

[Woolfe]

And somewhere in the world, some non-Muslims WOULD be killed or injured by that backlash.

At least 9 Muslims died and over 70 seriously injured in the backlash after the Florida Koran burning.

I don't think atheism is inherently better than theism, the Great Enlightenment-a humanistic atheist movement based on human dignity and inalienable rights- is based on ideas fostered from religious ideals. Everyone in the west seems to thinks of Islam as violent. Guess where the idea of inalienable human rights comes from? That's right, Islam. The Islamic world used to be the center for religious tolerance. Tolerance is just that-tolerance: the realization that someone has different ideas about reality and that there is nothing you should do about it. Acceptance is harder because it takes humility.

Indeed, every religion has fanatics. People seem to forget that less than 100 years ago in western society, it was "Wrong" for a woman to swim at a beach with anything less than a swimming costume that was essentially a dress on.

The problem is not religion, it is fanatacism. The inability to accept someone else may have a different belief/opinion to you.

[infestor]

Real-world religions? bad idea. to start with they're extremely boooooring. do you need more reasons?!

[dmazz]

From the vision document it does seem they are going for made up cults, which I admit would be less boring and limiting. Nonetheless they should at least try to inject just a little religion in the game, as it's absurd to pretend it just disappeared.

[Lanatir]

lol. REAL religion. as in...scientifically proved religion, you mean? Oh wait...there is no such thing. But besides that, I dont care for religion at all as long as the science part is done right. Cause Science is MY religion. But you better be careful with religiius topics. Lots of nutcases get offended really quick when you dont do it the way THEY think it is right.