Story that should be pieced together (not in your face)

[b0rsuk]

Don't get me wrong - I don't want a story that doesn't make any sense and sounds like complete nonsense until you find 5 obscure items or talk to a beggar on a full moon while wearing pants on your head. Plot should make sense and be consistent as baseline. But it has become a modern trend that all story is told explicitely to you. Cutscenes are thrown at you one after another to the point where they seem like interruptions. I think it's the same logic that dictates that ideally there should be no different paths in a game because the player only gets to see one of them on a playthrough.

Many old games had plot that made sense and was interesting but wasn't immediately obvious. You could search for notes (Thief 2), audio logs (System Shock 2), You could miss them. And that's fine ! Some players will feel rewarded when they read an interesting bit, some simply don't care and want to shoot stuff and become the most powerful or wealthy. Both kinds don't like having story forced down their throats. Perhaps some things aren't as they appear ? The last quest you've done was actually a succesful manipulation attempt ? You've killed a framed innocent, and you could've prevented that if you found some extra information or talked to someone ? Or the opposite - if you act QUICKLY enough, you arrive at the crime scene before killers have the time to clear everything up. (Too many games favor extreme caution, even indecision too often).

Please add a lot of optional story pieces. If you do it right, it's like an appetizer and makes players want more and search for more. Don't insult my intelligence. I'm a grown man, I can walk up and down stairs.

[Sub-Human]

I agree. These are, so to say, the most 'emotional' moments for me in a game, when I reveal the story by myself. Such as in Fallout 1, when I was told by the Brotherhood to go scout North for a possible base, then returning with my terrible findings.

So I'd like something similar here.

[Zombra]

Good post, b0rsuk. I'm with you. Subtle storytelling is a good thing to have. Some stuff should be as blatant as a rolled up newspaper across the nose, of course, but having undertones and threads that don't tie themselves up neatly is to be greatly desired. Brian said he's not going to build the game on the assumption that the player is stupid. I hope the same goes for the writing as well as the gameplay.

[ffordesoon]

Yes.

Ambiguity and mystery are things to be cherished, not avoided.

Well, unless you're Bioware, and subtlety is not your strong suit. Them trying to be subtle is what got us the DA2 and ME3 endings-that-weren't.

But look at Dark Souls versus Skyrim. In Dark Souls, you piece together information about the world over time. In Skyrim, people stand there and deliver dry history lectures whenever you talk to them. Which world was more interesting?

[paultakeda]

Considering the amount of heated discussion regarding the party system I'd be surprised if those who want to be told a story and have their PCs dictated to them agree with the OP. It'd be rather ironic as I see the disappearance of the party-based game a direct result of publishers focusing on more hero-based ego-story-driven games.

[nothingface]

100% agree, I was very happy to see this thread, because I too was thinking about posting something like this. If you played Fallout 3: Point Lookout, there was a short subplot in there about a chinese spy (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Velvet_Curtain), which I enjoyed very much.

it was still too short and simplistic, but at least it gave you the illusion that you're figuring out things for yourself, it was a very rare example in those games (F3, F:NV).

It's immensely satisfying when instead of people telling you to go here/get this item/talk to this man/kill that man, etc. the goals are not always clear, the player has to do some detective work and has to figure out things for himself. When you actually have to use your brain a little, and piece together the puzzle pieces, not just following someone's instructions.

[ffordesoon]

Considering the amount of heated discussion regarding the party system I'd be surprised if those who want to be told a story and have their PCs dictated to them agree with the OP. It'd be rather ironic as I see the disappearance of the party-based game a direct result of publishers focusing on more hero-based ego-story-driven games.

I dunno, I think there's a happy medium there that nobody's quite managed to find yet.

And I'm firmly in the camp of "people who want to be told a story". I love linear games and cutscenes and all the rest of the things that Cool Internet People aren't allowed to love anymore. The problem is not that these things are done in games; it's that they're done shittily. "Show, don't tell" is the old storytelling rule, and yet telling is ninety percent of what these games do. Technological limitations are a big part of the problem at the moment, but there are ways to compensate. All I know is, every time I read that book in Skyrim about the monks that keep the Elder Scrolls and how they have pet moths that light the way for them, I go, "Well, shit, that sounds like a cool place to go. Why can't I? Why do I just have to imagine it?" And I realize that it's hard to make new areas and stuff, but that's not a burden the consumer should have to bear.

The Half-Life games - all of Valve's games, actually - have done a remarkably good job of showing instead of telling, but that's because Valve employs great storytellers intimately familiar with the medium, and involves them in the development of the product from day one.

Really, though, the key is not to treat the player like a mentally challenged goldfish, as Fargo says. We can put two and two together ourselves without someone yelling "TWO AND TWO MAKE FOUR DID YOU KNOW THAT" at us.

[paultakeda]

I dunno, I think there's a happy medium there that nobody's quite managed to find yet.

And I'm firmly in the camp of "people who want to be told a story".

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy being told a story, too. For instance,Uncharted ranks as one of my favorites for this century at the moment. But too much of a good thing tends to turn variety into monotony and the recent trend to "Hollywoodize" games, while exciting, has sucked up all available resources for different kinds of games.

[Drool]

All I know is, every time I read that book in Skyrim about the monks that keep the Elder Scrolls and how they have pet moths that light the way for them, I go, "Well, shit, that sounds like a cool place to go. Why can't I? Why do I just have to imagine it?"

Whereas I remember Oblivion where I actually did go there and smile because it was pretty damn cool.

[ffordesoon]

All I know is, every time I read that book in Skyrim about the monks that keep the Elder Scrolls and how they have pet moths that light the way for them, I go, "Well, shit, that sounds like a cool place to go. Why can't I? Why do I just have to imagine it?"

Whereas I remember Oblivion where I actually did go there and smile because it was pretty damn cool.

Really? It's in Oblivion? Well, goddammit.

Anyway, you get my point regardless, though, right?

[Drool]

Part of the Thieves' Guild Quest. Which, incidentally, is probably the best written questline in the entire game, and the final mission truly deserves the "epic" descriptor.

I do understand your point, though. I'm not sure if I fully agree with it. Like many things, I think it's a matter of balance, and too many games tilt too far one way or the other. But I do agree that some linear games can still be very fun, even when being led about by the nose.

Honestly, my biggest complaint about cutscenes is when designers rely on them too heavily because they apparently want to make a movie, not a video game (I'm looking at you Hideo Kojima).

[paultakeda]

But I do agree that some linear games can still be very fun, even when being led about by the nose.

I just bought The Bourne Conspiracy for $7 and spent the weekend playing through a completely linear, predictable storyline... and I had a grand old time . The fist fights are fantastic in that game; being a fan of the recent trilogy the game this was licensed to accompany, hearing that staccato violin riff while duking it out is oh, so awesome.

[BlackGauntlet]

I just bought The Bourne Conspiracy for $7 and spent the weekend playing through a completely linear, predictable storyline... and I had a grand old time . The fist fights are fantastic in that game; being a fan of the recent trilogy the game this was licensed to accompany, hearing that staccato violin riff while duking it out is oh, so awesome.

Guess you'd be watching The Bourne Legacy then, eh?

Back to the OP, I think the problem is the infamous "Quest Journal" thing again.

[GodComplex]

I just bought The Bourne Conspiracy for $7 and spent the weekend playing through a completely linear, predictable storyline... and I had a grand old time . The fist fights are fantastic in that game; being a fan of the recent trilogy the game this was licensed to accompany, hearing that staccato violin riff while duking it out is oh, so awesome.

Guess you'd be watching The Bourne Legacy then, eh?

Back to the OP, I think the problem is the infamous "Quest Journal" thing again.

I don't think the issue is so much with the journal as it is with the journal holding your hand and leading you to your next point of interest, which is dull and non-conducive to exploring.

[ffordesoon]

Yeah, I think the problem is that "journals" aren't written as journals anymore. They're shopping lists. The player regularly knows more than the character does.

The journal in Planescape, by contrast, never broke character. It wasn't perfect, since the paragraphs were clearly written in a certain order that occasionally didn't mesh with the sequence of events as the player experienced them, but...

[paultakeda]

There's a bit of writer's conceit in the new quest logs. We've gone from no log, to a log with simple statements to logs with creative titles and chapters.

I don't mind these embellishments and they do make it easier to shorthand talk with other players about a quest, but they can be constricting as they establish distinct stories within the main narrative that just sort of parcel themselves out with no real connection to the overall world. If WL2 is a sandbox with choices that have far reaching effects, then quests never truly end. They resolve, but the characters involved, the decision of the plot, these can affect other areas and open up new stories or even new dialogue (and just dialogue, no actual "quest").

I'd like to see that more free-form narrative, so the quest log shouldn't itemize quests. As the OP's title states, they shouled piece together out of a narrative. You'll have bits and pieces of quests dotting your log and the game landscape, and the only time they solidify into something you can call a quest is when you radio in a mission report. At that point your rangers are defining the quest according to how it turned out. It is a post-event label.

[Infinitron]

I'd like to see that more free-form narrative, so the quest log shouldn't itemize quests. As the OP's title states, they shouled piece together out of a narrative. You'll have bits and pieces of quests dotting your log and the game landscape, and the only time they solidify into something you can call a quest is when you radio in a mission report. At that point your rangers are defining the quest according to how it turned out. It is a post-event label.

It might be cool if you could actually drag and drop paragraphs in your journal, putting together related bits of information. Make your own quest log out of the raw data.

[Woolfe]

I'd like to see that more free-form narrative, so the quest log shouldn't itemize quests. As the OP's title states, they shouled piece together out of a narrative. You'll have bits and pieces of quests dotting your log and the game landscape, and the only time they solidify into something you can call a quest is when you radio in a mission report. At that point your rangers are defining the quest according to how it turned out. It is a post-event label.

It might be cool if you could actually drag and drop paragraphs in your journal, putting together related bits of information. Make your own quest log out of the raw data.

Thats what I said too

I think it makes sense.... Altho it might make the process a little manual

[BlackGauntlet]

It might be cool if you could actually drag and drop paragraphs in your journal, putting together related bits of information. Make your own quest log out of the raw data.