Blatant "Quests"

[Mandemon]

You know, this is sounding like we should just take whole control away from player. Let's make everything in the game a skill.

Hey, if you'd rather map every hex in the game yourself by hand ... go for it, dude.

And game can't just keep auto-map without forcing player either a) Grind to make skill accurate or b) Keeping his own map to check validity of the in-game map?

You see, the "skill determines the precision" is used in Dwarf Fortress on stockpiles and bookkeeper and his skill. Lowest skills, it gives closest 1000. Higher skill gives better detail until it comes sort of precognitive skill to determine past, present and future item... Anyway, normal action is to select s dorf, lock him up keeping records until he gains legendary skills and perfect precision.

If, on the other, player is required to check the validity of the map with his own drawn or memorized version, why have the auto-map feature if player is anyway forced to create the map?

I am for auto-map. I am against tying it, or 99% of the standard game mechanics to skills. Quest journals and maps should not be skill based, but automatic and reliable.

[AgentTate]

You know, this is sounding like we should just take whole control away from player. Let's make everything in the game a skill.

Hey, if you'd rather map every hex in the game yourself by hand ... go for it, dude.

And game can't just keep auto-map without forcing player either a) Grind to make skill accurate or b) Keeping his own map to check validity of the in-game map?

You see, the "skill determines the precision" is used in Dwarf Fortress on stockpiles and bookkeeper and his skill. Lowest skills, it gives closest 1000. Higher skill gives better detail until it comes sort of precognitive skill to determine past, present and future item... Anyway, normal action is to select s dorf, lock him up keeping records until he gains legendary skills and perfect precision.

If, on the other, player is required to check the validity of the map with his own drawn or memorized version, why have the auto-map feature if player is anyway forced to create the map?

I am for auto-map. I am against tying it, or 99% of the standard game mechanics to skills. Quest journals and maps should not be skill based, but automatic and reliable.

No one suggested that having the mapping being linked to a skill and being incorrect if it's low. I'm only advocating getting more out of a mapping feature from using the skill. Same with a journal.

[Color Blotch]

No one suggested that having the mapping being linked to a skill and being incorrect if it's low. I'm only advocating getting more out of a mapping feature from using the skill. Same with a journal.

So with that you turn journal (and map) from a basic memory accommodation into vital gameplay element. Kind of exactly the opposite way you need to go to avoid "blatant Quests".

Overall I find tying basic game functionality with roleplaying to be a bad idea. Primarily because it's hard to impossible to properly balance trade-offs in relation with these kind of skills and the actual skills of your PCs. For example in DA you could invest into "combat tactics skill", which basically allowed you to script one more instruction into PC's AI. In the end buffing the actual skills on your PCs always outweighed the need for 1 more AI slot, but on the other hand, the fact that the number of these slots had to be limited so that investment in combat tactics was justified ended up significantly crippling otherwise very potent customizable AI in that game. The tension between investment into a proper skill or a basic game functionality just doesn't feel right. It's not even a choice between apples and oranges, more like between apples and strategic bombers. It just makes no sense.

[Mandemon]

No one suggested that having the mapping being linked to a skill and being incorrect if it's low. I'm only advocating getting more out of a mapping feature from using the skill. Same with a journal.

REAAAALLY?

How about a journal system that takes more intelligent notes the more intelligent your squad is?

Personally, I think it would be nice to have mapping skill based (higher skill pointing out more features/info), and journal readouts based on int and associated skills (high int yields more info/skill rolls during convo/through searching produce information in the journal). It doesn't automate the game, it fills in gaps and leaves a great reminder of what was going on if you got sidetracked by something else. Journals are especially great if you put the game down for a week and come back thinking, "What the hell was I doing? I can't remember anything."

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

[Lucius]

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this sounds exactly like Skyrim's quest log. I DO NOT want that level of hand holding or simplicity. The journal should give details of the task that needs to be done, including all necessary clues to figure out what to do.

[tuluse]

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this sounds exactly like Skyrim's quest log. I DO NOT want that level of hand holding or simplicity. The journal should give details of the task that needs to be done, including all necessary clues to figure out what to do.

I disagree with both of you.

The journal should only contain what you've learned in game. It should say WHO wants WHAT done, and WHERE they think it should be done. Not necessarily where it should should actually be done, or what should actually be done. For example: the first citizen wants Gecko's reactor shut down. You don't actually have to shut it down, you can fix it. Another example is: The overseer wants you to find a water chip, check Vault 15. There is no water chip in Vault 15. You never even have to go there if you don't want.

[Lucius]

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this sounds exactly like Skyrim's quest log. I DO NOT want that level of hand holding or simplicity. The journal should give details of the task that needs to be done, including all necessary clues to figure out what to do.

I disagree with both of you.

The journal should only contain what you've learned in game. It should say WHO wants WHAT done, and WHERE they think it should be done. Not necessarily where it should should actually be done, or what should actually be done. For example: the first citizen wants Gecko's reactor shut down. You don't actually have to shut it down, you can fix it. Another example is: The overseer wants you to find a water chip, check Vault 15. There is no water chip in Vault 15. You never even have to go there if you don't want.

This is what I mean. As you gain new clues, it's updated in your journal.

Using your example, after speaking with the first guy you then meet a technician that used to work at the Gecko reactor and he gives you information you could use to shut it down, or fix it. Perhaps he could also supply some security info that is helpful. When you get there you learn that the reactor supplies power for different settlements and you can reroute that power.

As you learn more information, your journal is updated adding the new clues and information to the quest as you learn and discover relevant information.

[BlackGauntlet]

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

I hated this shit. I'd rather get the obvious details like "I was told X." That's it. Whether you consider X as a mission, a statement, a rumor, a proclamation or what-not, it doesn't matter. I don't want a fucking book/PDA/narrator/Deity to tell ME what to do.

[Woolfe]

You know, this is sounding like we should just take whole control away from player. Let's make everything in the game a skill.

Map making? Skill.
Quest keeping? Skill.
Completing quest? Skill.
Moving around? Skill.
Playing the game? Skill.

Let's move player to passive audience part and let the game play itself! Why need to have players skills to take part in anything or make anything easier for player by keeping notes.

Why not just have player two buttons: "Roll character" and "Play". After pressing "Play", all control is taken from player and he only gets to watch as game plays itself.

Exagerate much....

I was only half serious when I said make it a skill, however an advantage of using a skill that improves is that by the time it is imporoved to a degree that you don't have to concern yourself with it anymore, You are distracted doing more important stuff....

So a map making skill for example. Starts low you get a map with only key points marked, maybe not much detail etc. As you hoon around exploring and your skill grows through use/experience, you start marking different elements on their automatically, key areas, Random encounter frequency, any settlers in the area, that sort of thing.

I don't necessarily think its worth doing, but its not that bad an idea really.

[Drool]

Wasn't there a game that did this? You had to have Cartography skill to have an automap?

There was also a Wizard Eye spell. Worked pretty nicely and you could switch between them:

No nuttin':


Skill:


Spell:



With no skill or spell, you get nothing. With the skill, it only maps out squares you've actually been to while the spell shows everything. Incidentally, there are times when the skill is preferable as you can track what you haven't explored. Which is probably why they allowed you to switch between them.

[Greenpee]

Also, Eschalon: Book 1, 2. You start out with a blank sheet and as you put points in Cartography you're able to produce better quality automaps for yourself, mostly by addition of colors. Screenshots: Some skill - More skill

[AgentTate]

No one suggested that having the mapping being linked to a skill and being incorrect if it's low. I'm only advocating getting more out of a mapping feature from using the skill. Same with a journal.

REAAAALLY?

How about a journal system that takes more intelligent notes the more intelligent your squad is?

Don't know what you're not seeing in that. Pretty simple statement that doesn't suggest what you're saying.

Personally, I think it would be nice to have mapping skill based (higher skill pointing out more features/info), and journal readouts based on int and associated skills (high int yields more info/skill rolls during convo/through searching produce information in the journal). It doesn't automate the game, it fills in gaps and leaves a great reminder of what was going on if you got sidetracked by something else. Journals are especially great if you put the game down for a week and come back thinking, "What the hell was I doing? I can't remember anything."

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

Details for no mapping skill: Just a map with big features: towns, rivers, mountains. With more skill, you get locations of interest, landmarks, dangerous zones, determine locations through hearsay.

With a high intelligence in a character, information is more granular and the journal entries may give better hints about solutions, skills like perception add more detail to what was seen in a location that may confirm/deny a rumor about a place.

[Zombra]

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

I hated this shit. I'd rather get the obvious details like "I was told X." That's it. Whether you consider X as a mission, a statement, a rumor, a proclamation or what-not, it doesn't matter. I don't want a fucking book/PDA/narrator/Deity to tell ME what to do.

Total agreement. I hate the imperative nature of quest logs. "Do this." "Kill so-and-so." "Assassinate whatshisname." So much better to have statements and observations. "Farmer Fred asked me to do this." "So-and-so's bandits have been terrorizing Shepherd Town." "Joe Blow offered me $5000 and three virgins if I assassinate whatshisname." That way it's ... a journal instead of a list of instructions from God.

[Mandemon]

What details you would get? Nothing. Journal should only have obvious details, like "I was given quest X, that needs me do to Y". No more, no less.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this sounds exactly like Skyrim's quest log. I DO NOT want that level of hand holding or simplicity. The journal should give details of the task that needs to be done, including all necessary clues to figure out what to do.

I disagree with both of you.

The journal should only contain what you've learned in game. It should say WHO wants WHAT done, and WHERE they think it should be done. Not necessarily where it should should actually be done, or what should actually be done. For example: the first citizen wants Gecko's reactor shut down. You don't actually have to shut it down, you can fix it. Another example is: The overseer wants you to find a water chip, check Vault 15. There is no water chip in Vault 15. You never even have to go there if you don't want.

This is actually what I meant. I imagine journal could be like this:

[ ]Get new Water Chip
-[ ]Go to Vault 15 to ask for new chip (Oversees recommendation)

After visiting Vault 15 and learning there is no chip there:

[ ]Get new Water Chip
-[x]Go to Vault 15 to ask for new chip
-[ ] Find new source of Water Chips

Also, this same could be used for finding your missing tribe:

[ ] Find your tribe

Later:

[ ] Find your tribe
- Note: I found Shaman. She said great metal birds took them to south.
- [ ] Search your tribe from South

Later:

[ ] Find your tribe
- Note: I found Shaman. She said great metal birds took them to south.
- [X] Search your tribe from South
- Note: John Doe said Metal Birds belong to someone called "Enclave". They have a base in abandoned Oil Rig.
- [ ] Investigate Oil Rig for clues

And so on and so on. Perhaps keep only the notes section, so final looks like this:

[ ] Find your tribe
- Note: I found Shaman. She said great metal birds took them to south.
- Note: John Doe said Metal Birds belong to someone called "Enclave". They have a base in abandoned Oil Rig.

[Zombra]

I imagine journal could be like this:

[ ]Get new Water Chip
-[ ]Go to Vault 15 to ask for new chip (Oversees recommendation)

After visiting Vault 15 and learning there is no chip there:

[ ]Get new Water Chip
-[x]Go to Vault 15 to ask for new chip
-[ ] Find new source of Water Chips

Also, this same could be used for finding your missing tribe:

[ ] Find your tribe

Later:

[ ] Find your tribe
- Note: I found Shaman. She said great metal birds took them to south.
- [ ] Search your tribe from South

Later:

[ ] Find your tribe
- Note: I found Shaman. She said great metal birds took them to south.
- [X] Search your tribe from South
- Note: John Doe said Metal Birds belong to someone called "Enclave". They have a base in abandoned Oil Rig.
- [ ] Investigate Oil Rig for clues

And so on and so on. Perhaps keep only the notes section, so final looks like this:

[ ] Find your tribe
- Note: I found Shaman. She said great metal birds took them to south.
- Note: John Doe said Metal Birds belong to someone called "Enclave". They have a base in abandoned Oil Rig.

The basic layout is OK, but I really hate this bullet point/checklist/commandments from God idiom. It would be so easy to have the same information without saying HEY YOU PLAYER PLAYING A GAME, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THIS THIS AND THIS.

I would really prefer something in English. We don't need the checkboxes or the imperative tense.

The journal shouldn't look like a shopping list for chrissakes.

Vault 13, my home, needs a new water chip.
The Overseer recommended that I find Vault 15; they might have one.

After visiting Vault 15 and learning there is no chip there:

Vault 13, my home, needs a new water chip.
Vault 15 did not have one. I will have to look elsewhere.

For finding your missing tribe:

It is said among my people that there are more of us out there.

Later:

It is said among my people that there are more of us out there.
I found a shaman who said that great metal birds took our lost brothers to the south.

Later:

It is said among my people that there are more of us out there. Where did they go?
I found a shaman at the edge of the Whatever Desert who said that great metal birds took our lost brothers to the south.
I met a man in Nowhere Town called John Doe. He said that the metal birds belong to someone called "Enclave", who have a base in an abandoned oil rig somewhere.

And really it would be nice if the entries were a little more involved. I know, people hate reading, but these could have a lot more information in them. I did the short versions because I didn't want to spend a lot of time on this.

It's a minor change, but it makes a huge difference to me. Just throwing that out there.

[Mandemon]

That is still a checklist. No matter how you write it, it will end up looking like

Main Goal
-Sub-goal
--Sub-sub-goal

And so on. Also, that journal only works for 1 writer. Finally, it removes oh-so-precious imagination from the game. It places words in to PCs mind/mouth, which we cannot accept.

(Okay, that last part isn't exactly fair for you but I always found idea of having completely black slates for character stupid)

[Zombra]

That is still a checklist. No matter how you write it, it will end up looking like
Main Goal
-Sub-goal
--Sub-sub-goal

Maybe, but presentation matters to me. If it's all the same to you, then we can agree they should do it my way

[Lucius]

Presentation. Exactly! I'd like for the journal to feel as if a human is writing down the facts, not a computer spitting out instructions.

[Zombra]

Also, that journal only works for 1 writer. Finally, it removes oh-so-precious imagination from the game. It places words in to PCs mind/mouth, which we cannot accept. (Okay, that last part isn't exactly fair for you but I always found idea of having completely black slates for character stupid)

Wanted to get back to this. Actually, that is a completely fair criticism on your part, since my version does "put words into the PC's pen". I thought about it while I was typing that post above, but didn't think it was a big enough deal to mention.

Although I prefer to avoid authored PC stuff, in the journal I think it's OK, or at least the lesser of two evils. I do think that PC journal entries should be as dry and informational as possible, with a minimum of emotion or personality, but they should still look written by a human being. It is inconsistent with my previous stance on silent PCs, but I am happy to fudge that position a little for the sake of a non-"gamey" journal.

Morrowind's journal looked a lot like this (and with a lot more information), and aside from being horribly organized, I think it worked well. It didn't really take me too far out of my characters (except for the one who was supposed to be illiterate ). In a party of four PCs, I can deal with the assumption that at least one of them has a dry, factual journal writing style. It's not perfect, but I can't think of a superior implementation.

[Woolfe]

That is still a checklist. No matter how you write it, it will end up looking like

Main Goal
-Sub-goal
--Sub-sub-goal

And so on. Also, that journal only works for 1 writer. Finally, it removes oh-so-precious imagination from the game. It places words in to PCs mind/mouth, which we cannot accept.

(Okay, that last part isn't exactly fair for you but I always found idea of having completely black slates for character stupid)

Agreed....

I actually like the checklist type look. When I am jotting down important information on paper, I tend to put what is essentially a "bullet" mark to denote a new bit of information.

I also actually think Mande is right in that it does place words into PC's mind or mouth. But you could make it acceptable. It could put a quick generic one liner, and then give you the ability to update it.

And something else I was considering. Assuming that there is a "Text box" essentially noting everything that happens as you go along. Maybe the simplest journal concept is that you "mark" a selection of the text box, and that selection goes into your journal.
So you speak to a dude and he tells you the password is "Inconveivable" so you highlight that entry hit a button and it gets noted in your permanent Journal.
Or maybe you saw a cool death description and want to remember it, you hit the note button, and that selection goes into your journal.