Exploiting Gambling...

[Gillsing]

int = integer (not INTelligence)

Integer is a number without decimals or fractions, which are cut off, making an integer always rounded down.
So it's: Brawling/2 (rounded down) + 1

After finishing the game one time I boosted a character's Luck to 26 and went to Club Acapulco to gamble. I managed to raise Gamble to 13, but no higher than that. So I concluded that half the base attribute was the limit for how high a skill could go from usage. But that might be wrong, because sometimes it takes a long time to gain another level in Gamble when gambling in Club Acapulco. For all I know, the character was only level 13, so that may have been the limit at play (which I didn't know about at the time). I guess I'll have to conduct an experiment with a low Luck gambler at the Casino Car.

What I would like to know is if anyone has tried raising single attributes to 100 or so and compare the effect to characters with only 20 in the same attributes. I'm working on that now in an attempt to see which attributes affect what things, and to what degrees. Not going to use any roll-over library bugs to do it though. Just regular gambling seems unbalanced enough for me, and that seems to work as intended by the designers. Such a generous wasteland!

[Wild_Bill_711]

Always HATED the 'Skill Point Cheat' with a passion... because it's simply too damn easy...

ANY skill that requires '255 points' to "buy" the next level is actually "FREE"... and ya get 'rewarded' with another 'skill point' to boot... think all that's required is to have minimum of 2 SKP's already available !!!

Usually have all my Medics up to a level 6 or 7 BEFORE starting Vegas... may get some 'practice' on a NPC / 'recruit' a 'victim' of desert heat, when 'giving up his Canteen' for a while... using Macros sure speeds-up the process of 'healing' the wounded... especially when they're constantly reaching MORT condition. By the end of the game, most... if not all the Medics have reached level 12... once or twice, reaching level 14 (couldn't quit at 13, unlucky maybe).

Other high 'skill levels', in addition to the obvious 'Gambling' at Fat Freddy's -
Picklock - Spade's Casino... upstairs closet door & door in empty cellar; also the doors leading to the fallout shelter in the Wine Cellar. Use a Macro, they're rough to get through... can get 4, 5 maybe 6 'level-ups'... maybe enuff 'experience' for a promotion too ! (think I've gotten as high as level 12, doing this, after destroying Cochise.)

Climb - Cochise, a single character goes over the 'slippery pipes' in the first 'training room'... can boost to a level 4 (I know... the 'loose rocks in Spade's empty cellar' can do the same thing... only quicker).

Acrobat - Cochise, final level... BEFORE 'stopping the conveyor belt', ride on the moving belt (or try near the machine to be broken)...good for level 4... also couple 'exploding doorways' at Citadel that may boost skill.

Electronics can be a 'fun' skill... in addition to its 'traditional' uses, it's a quick, easy way to 'open doors' in Vegas... particularly at Spade's and the Servant's Temple. Try it on the Security Camera... but look-out for the Temple Guardians !... then 'open' the front door with a TNT !

Brawling skill IS improved ONLY with specific weapons (Club, Ax. Chainsaw, & Proton Ax !)... brawling with a crowbar, or any other 'tool' will NOT raise the skill level ! See 'stuff' available at Highpool & Nomads Trading Car to distinguish Tools & Supplies from 'weapons' ! Once a level 7 is achieved, it's okay to brawl with anything, a book, a map, a match, even a clay pot... they just don't inflict the damage of other 'weapons'.

Metallurgy skill - may be 'useful' at 2 spots in 1 location... helps characters recognize silver in rocks, then Pick Ax produces 'loot'... small amounts of cash ! "Greed" will get ya !!! 'Extra Mining', with a pick ax, WILL yield additional cash, but after 2 'extra attempts' additional adversaries are added to the 'random encounters' (a Gecko - 400 points, a Skink - 600 points, and finally a Shell Cougar - 1500 points !). Although both spots will add the adversaries, ONE of them ALSO 'unlocks' a series of 'random encounters' with almost every step the characters take. Be Forewarned !!!

Cyborg Tech - maybe you want to try the Mind Maze, but wonder if 3 SKP for the skill is worth it... at this point in the game, your Rangers and 'Recruits' should be 'pretty well developed' ! ... making it possible to 'connect to the Mind Link' and enter Finster's Mind Maze. Probably requires at least 10+ 'tries', but eventually it CAN be done !

The Helicopter - can be GREAT ! - visit & destroy Cochise by land FIRST !... AFTER its 'destruction', go back by Helicopter to 'restore it as an active location' on the main map !!! Then you can 'play with the bots' there... and pick-up any loot previously left behind. A word of caution... be sure the roof has been 'cleared' to avoid any surprises !!! The helicopter ONLY kills all the original outside bots WHEN USED for the FIRST / INITIAL visit to the base... if used later, it DOESN'T kill any of them !!!

keep 'Exploring' !

[Wild_Bill_711]

Hey there Gillsing,

I usually 'round-out' my characters' Attributes (Speed, Agility, & Dexterity) at a level "20". also various Strength levels (between 15-19 levels), IQ's are usually 26's & 28's that usually gets everyone the necessary skills I'd like them to get. Luck is usually at '20' levels... occasionally taking everyone to a '25' level. Don't do much with Charisma... maybe raise extremely low levels to a 10, or slightly better, minimum.

Had occasion to raise all characters 'Luck' to 100 levels - but in the process, it wasn't possible to notice any significant improvements 'in the loot' they recovered or their 'success in combat' - more frequent 'hits', better 'evading', etc.

Late in the game, usually get Vax basic Gambling skill - since he starts with a '40' Luck... Vax does 'advance' through the skill levels (2 - 9 or 10) rapidly and more frequent 'higher wins' (best at Freddy's) as he progresses. The 11th & 12th levels usually take a little longer. Seems to take considerable time (even with Macros) to reach higher skill levels, and as I recall, the 'boosts' maybe came 2 or 3 in quicker succession, then another lengthy delay till any further 'boosts'

Just a guess 'off the top of my head', but I'd think that a "40" Luck is about 15-25 % better than a "20" Luck as far as Gambling is concerned. More frequent "wins" as the lower levels increase and more frequent much higher wins" at the highest levels. Think the maximum pay-out was about 4 times the amount of the bet (up to $200 for a $50 bet) at Freddy's. Table games at Spade's only paid-out $15 / $20 on a "winning" $10 bet.

Could try the tables at Acapulco and see how it goes there.... as far as slot machines go (Nomad's Casino Car & Spade's) seemed like infrequent small wins ($1-$5) at low skill levels (1-4).... more frequent minor wins ($10-$30) at mid levels (5-8)... and finally, usually a win nearly every spin (a few / some smaller - less than $10) at the higher levels - 9 or better. Hardly a "get-rich-quick' scheme !

This is all from my best memory... from playing the game (and gambling there) over 10, nearly 15 years ago !!!

[Gillsing]

Thanks for the info!

By gambling a lot I had my high Luck guy reach Gamble 25 with Luck 50, and even that wasn't enough to make money in Club Acapulco, which is the only place where such high rank is possible to get. At least according to the walkthrough. But it does work for relatively slowly making money from the Casino Car, which is something that my Gamble 10 Luck 20 characters can't do. And gambling at Fat Freddy's became quite profitable. Millions of dollars!

One very interesting thing that I noticed was the various effects on weapon damage. Luck seems to increase both melee and ranged damage, while both Strength and Dexterity seems to increase melee damage by about the same amount. With Luck 100 it seems as if an SMG is more powerful than a laser rifle with Luck 20ish. So Luck is an incredibly unbalanced attribute in Wasteland.

The female NPC "Kutie" in Big Al's bed in the top floor of Spade's Casino seems to be very hard to hit with melee attacks. I wonder if that is because she has very high Agility, since the description of that attribute hints that it would help with avoiding blows? One of my parties couldn't hit her at all until they switched to ranged weapons, and in my ridiculously overpowered party only the guy with high Luck managed to eventually land a hit. Maybe higher weapon skills would have helped? Though the high Dexterity character hadn't yet levelled up in the cellar, so Dexterity wasn't super high at that time. Maybe that would have helped?

I also noticed that Speed 100+ is certainly enough for melee attacks to go before the enemies' ranged attacks. Something I was curious about, since I thought that ranged attacks might automatically go before melee attacks. But I guess that they just have a huge bonus to Speed. And I guess if it's true that Wasteland's rules system is taken directly from Tunnels And Trolls and Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes, then I could probably try to find out what those rules actually say on these subjects. Never knew that those books in Ugly's Hideout were RPG-books.

[Wild_Bill_711]

Thanx Gillsing,

Appreciate the additional info on the extremely high (100) Luck Attribute !

Trying to 'over-simplify' this - the "rule" in Wasteland was that "ranger characters" attacked first ! ... Think this is best demonstrated when both 'Rangers' and 'adversaries' have 'range weapons'... the 'Rangers' shoot first ! The ONLY 'exception' to this rule is where the 'adversaries' are 'range-capable' BUT the 'Rangers' are only prepared for 'melee' combat (when the 'encounter' involves 'distance'), then the 'adversaries' attack first ! So now, the 'difficulty' is determining which 'adversaries' really have 'range-capabilities' !! Best 'clue' is that they always appear at distances of 30 or more feet away... then, you'll know for certain when they 'open-fire', 'hitting you' as you move closer !
A few examples of these 'range-capable' adversaries - Needles 'Temple of Blood' - the robots there; Las Vegas 'streets' - the Warroid Mark robots & Scorpitron; Darwin Village - the Base Policemen, the Bandits, the Desert Scum; Project Darwin - the Spawn Masters; the Citadel - practically ALL of the 'Guardians' there; and Base Cochise - probably about 60% of the robots there !!! ... at least that's how I remember it...


Certainly remember "Kutie" at Spade's... think was impossible to 'hit' her with a Brawling or Knife Fight skill level of a '4' ! Think you could do it with a level 5 or better... just hadn't met the adversaries yet to reach those higher levels. Think she was first encountered at a range of about 40 feet... too far for Pistol accuracy, so rushed closer (like to about 20 feet) and opened fire... 'that-solves-that' and probably only had Pistol skills of a '1' or '2'.

Speaking of 'impossible to hit'... really HATED those 'pesky' Chopters at Cochise. Never could 'hit' em with Brawling or Knife Fight (never even tried Pugilism)... a slow 'waste' of Power Packs (using Laser rifles/carbines) OR a rapid 'waste' of ammo clips (using Assault rifles)... developed a 'bad habit' of getting groups of 7 or more Chopters to 'chase' me to a back corner of the map... and 'ducking-out' / going back into the desert when they got 'too close for comfort' ! Then could reenter Cochise and be back at the front. That's just a 'temporary' solution ! The maps have a limit of 3 "unfinished" 'encounters'... so, at that point, no more 'random encounters' can be generated. Who wants a 'safe resting place' ? Just no 'fun' !!! So eventually, gotta go back to get those Chopters !
Is the Chaplin in ? ... 'Confession Time'... Loves da 'Super-Loot Bag' cheat (just for the Red Ryders & some extra Proton Axes !)... no more 'pesky' Chopters ! Hee, hee, hee !

When 'grinding through the game' properly, prefer the melee combat for double the 'experience point values' for the 'kills' / (faster 'promotions')... Not a 'shopper' (except for buying Axes early in the game)... constantly 'upgrading' armor (Leather Jackets, to Bullet-proof, to Kevlar Vests, to Rad Suits) for my key characters (best Medics) as it's found.

Yes... Per Jorner's 'Walkthrough' is the best I know of ! He had mentioned a 'tip' of mine and later included my other suggestions.

[Hasenklein]

I have a character that's beaten the Night Terror to death two or three dozen times with a Proton Ax. Got a 7 in Rifle and Energy Weapons, but nobody's Brawling goes above 4. It's not capping by Pugilism, is it?

No, it isn't. You can use many items for Brawling, but only few are "brawling weapons" and allow rising the skill.

E.g. Pick Axes and Sledge Hammers can be used, but don't allow rising Brawling. Clubs and Axes do, however:

http://wasteland.wikis.ailis.de/wiki/Weapons

[Drool]

Ahhhh. Thank you.

20 years on and I'm still learning.

[Hell Razor]

I knew there was some reason I was able to get some builds to 8+ brawling and others never advanced.