Making EVERYTHING shades of grey

[Woolfe]

I really really like shades of Grey.

I love the fact that even the best choice is not always the right one.

BUT, I also love playing the hero. Please make sure you have some choices that are, if not black and white, then Really light grey and and really dark grey

[TΛPETRVE]

Well, I'm sure there will be genuinely evil NPCs in the game, too.

[Mandemon]

Well, I'm sure there will be genuinely evil NPCs in the game, too.

What about genuinely good NPCs? I mean, sure, grey and gray morality is OK sometimes, but whole world running on black and grey? I don't think so.

[Sub-Human]

To be honest... No. There should be a flipside to every coin. It doesn't have to be painfully obvious. Just having a mad scientist who tortures and kills people is boring. A mad scientist who tortures and kills people while trying to make the world a better place (in his vision) is better.

[Woolfe]

Well, I'm sure there will be genuinely evil NPCs in the game, too.

What about genuinely good NPCs? I mean, sure, grey and gray morality is OK sometimes, but whole world running on black and grey? I don't think so.

Someone who isn't the typical, mother Theresa type as well.

How about a young dynamic gogetter who is pulling a community together by dint of simply being a really good person. So much so that people in the community are just generally better because they want to be, not because they are forced to be.

I also always liked the Complete Bastard, who sacrifices themselves for the greater good, and no one really knows why except for maybe his closest friends. David Gemmell style.

[VaultDwellnChick]

I hear that's a good book

[Fuzi0n]

Different shades of gray AND black and white decisions is what makes a good game. Having only one or the other in a game gets a little boring after a while.

[tuluse]

Well I'm hoping there is some color in the game

[Ekaros]

black or white isn't colours just lack of ;D

I'm okay with Mother Theresas if their whole motives and actions are there not just the apparent surfaces...

[TΛPETRVE]

Nothing wrong with perfectly good people, although most games have them. They're just not very spectacular, because they mostly come in the shape of naïve everymen. You'll hardly find a do-gooder with actual power, that doesn't have one or two specks of blood on his or her shiny armour.

[Mandemon]

Just because he had to beat bunch of people doesn't mean he needs to be grey. One can be good and still be in position of power. Why can't ruler be kind, compassionate and in general good but ready to kick your ass if need arises? Why would he need to be naive?

Heck, why can't I have cynical and disillusioned guy, who does good just for sake of it or to prove universe that there can be good people in it? Why can't I have bunch of people protecting towns because they consider it right thing to do? Why not have people actively opposing slavery because they think it's wrong?

Why make good people morally ambitious? Why not just good old fashioned nice and good people, who aren't simply punching bag of the universe?

[Zombra]

Just because he had to beat bunch of people doesn't mean he needs to be grey. One can be good and still be in position of power. Why can't ruler be kind, compassionate and in general good but ready to kick your ass if need arises? Why would he need to be naive?

Heck, why can't I have cynical and disillusioned guy, who does good just for sake of it or to prove universe that there can be good people in it? Why can't I have bunch of people protecting towns because they consider it right thing to do? Why not have people actively opposing slavery because they think it's wrong?

Why make good people morally ambitious? Why not just good old fashioned nice and good people, who aren't simply punching bag of the universe?

Good post. The obvious reason "why not" of course is to give the heroes something to do. Coming to a settlement of sheepherders being terrorized by bandits is a clear opportunity for adventure. Coming to a well-armed settlement where everyone is secure and ready to protect his neighbors, that no bandit group would dare to attack ... not a lot to do there. You know?

[Woolfe]

Just because he had to beat bunch of people doesn't mean he needs to be grey. One can be good and still be in position of power. Why can't ruler be kind, compassionate and in general good but ready to kick your ass if need arises? Why would he need to be naive?

Heck, why can't I have cynical and disillusioned guy, who does good just for sake of it or to prove universe that there can be good people in it? Why can't I have bunch of people protecting towns because they consider it right thing to do? Why not have people actively opposing slavery because they think it's wrong?

Why make good people morally ambitious? Why not just good old fashioned nice and good people, who aren't simply punching bag of the universe?

Good post. The obvious reason "why not" of course is to give the heroes something to do. Coming to a settlement of sheepherders being terrorized by bandits is a clear opportunity for adventure. Coming to a well-armed settlement where everyone is secure and ready to protect his neighbors, that no bandit group would dare to attack ... not a lot to do there. You know?

Recover from injuries, replenish supplies, conduct trade, conduct diplomacy
But yeah, every town/village being like this would get a little boring

[Mandemon]

Just because he had to beat bunch of people doesn't mean he needs to be grey. One can be good and still be in position of power. Why can't ruler be kind, compassionate and in general good but ready to kick your ass if need arises? Why would he need to be naive?

Heck, why can't I have cynical and disillusioned guy, who does good just for sake of it or to prove universe that there can be good people in it? Why can't I have bunch of people protecting towns because they consider it right thing to do? Why not have people actively opposing slavery because they think it's wrong?

Why make good people morally ambitious? Why not just good old fashioned nice and good people, who aren't simply punching bag of the universe?

Good post. The obvious reason "why not" of course is to give the heroes something to do. Coming to a settlement of sheepherders being terrorized by bandits is a clear opportunity for adventure. Coming to a well-armed settlement where everyone is secure and ready to protect his neighbors, that no bandit group would dare to attack ... not a lot to do there. You know?

Oh, there can be a lot to do. They themselves might not need that much help, but it doesn't mean there can't be opening for a quest line.

Maybe one of their guards has disappeared and you are hired to track him down? Or maybe well liked merchant has disappeared? Maybe help two lovers to unite? Assist merchant setting up new trade routes? See why neighboring town has gone silent? Go and bring that old weird cat lady up in the hill who takes care of towns water supply some cookies

You know, quest where your non-combat skills are more useful than just "Shoot X, report back" approach.

Of course, I don't mean every place needs to be like this. I want there to be all kinds of places, from "Nice and Good" to "Wretched Hive Of Villainy" and everything between.

[Zombra]

Oh, there can be a lot to do.

Yeah, you give some good examples. I just meant that, by default, it's much easier to provide heroic opportunities when the good guys generally can't defend themselves.

The flip side of this coin is that powerful and capable NPC good guys sort of make the PC heroes seem less significant. I'm perfectly OK with this in a world like Wasteland's, but again, by default, it's not good for the story to have minor characters solving all the problems that the story's hero normally would take care of.

But again, not disagreeing with you. Having strong NPC good guys does actually open up a lot of more interesting and certainly less cliched possibilities.

Personally, I like to see every NPC good guy have at least one glaring fault or dirty secret. Even if that fault is "goody two-shoes"

[Mandemon]

You can have strong group of good guys. You simply need to find a way to limit them, to make players group more important. Maybe their numbers are low, or they have too little ammo and weapons to expand, or maybe they got bad harvest. Etc. etc. You can also make another powerful group to oppose them, perhaps some large raider horde. Make player the king maker in this scenario: Neither side has the power to win, but player can decide who wins with his own action. Or player can undermine both sides to allow Rangers to swoop in and take over.

It can also open a new quest-line, perhaps to setup effective Ranger Outpost you might need to get help from local communities. Creating an alliance with local powerhouse could provide much needed supplies. it can also strengthen Rangers themselves, a new recruitment source. Who says Rangers are there to take control? Maybe just to keep law.

F:NV had this idea to degree: Arizona rangers(Similar to Desert Rangers) found themselves pushed back by Legion. So they allied themselves with NCR(Powerful good guys) in exchange of training their version of the rangers and NCR helping protecting their turf.

[tuluse]

Just because he had to beat bunch of people doesn't mean he needs to be grey. One can be good and still be in position of power. Why can't ruler be kind, compassionate and in general good but ready to kick your ass if need arises? Why would he need to be naive?

Heck, why can't I have cynical and disillusioned guy, who does good just for sake of it or to prove universe that there can be good people in it? Why can't I have bunch of people protecting towns because they consider it right thing to do? Why not have people actively opposing slavery because they think it's wrong?

Why make good people morally ambitious? Why not just good old fashioned nice and good people, who aren't simply punching bag of the universe?

Good post. The obvious reason "why not" of course is to give the heroes something to do. Coming to a settlement of sheepherders being terrorized by bandits is a clear opportunity for adventure. Coming to a well-armed settlement where everyone is secure and ready to protect his neighbors, that no bandit group would dare to attack ... not a lot to do there. You know?

You mean like Vault City?

[b0rsuk]

I really really like shades of Grey.

Then you're a lucky, lucky man !

[Zeful]

I agree, we should avoid making everything shades of grey. The world is far more morally complex than a grey on gray monochrome suggests.

[b0rsuk]

The way this thread is named, and the way this subforum is named suggests that the OP is against shades of gray. Not a good a thing to say when you want the opposite.