No insta-healing items

[Drool]

We all agree that pressing ESC for 5 minutes is awful.

Except for when you were grinding Base Cochise for that sweet sweet XP and wanted to spawn a random encounter.

[DrunkVision]

I don't think "what is the most realistic" should be the discussion had here. Who cares? What is more fun should be what we are asking. To me, instant healing only has a place in fast paced action games. Healing in combat should be a tactical decision with rewards and consequences. Outside of combat, I'm all for having a way to move on without waiting around several minutes real time.

Well said. Gameplay is king.

I would submit that atmosphere should be second in line to the throne. Meaning that good gameplay is most important, and making it "Wasteland-y" is a close second. By that I mean that the system should be pretty harsh. Healing potions and the like just don't fit in with the world. They're too easy. They should only be included if the game can't be fun without them.

Realism should be third; still important, but disposable if it interferes with gameplay or the Wasteland vibration.

I don't see any problems here. Make insta-healing items costly in game money and action points in combat, make them expire and here it is-your so liked harcore mode. I would just imply that there should be a choice cause newbie players won't want that kind of game indeed.

[The Dutch Ghost]

Personally I rather see a 'casual' mode and a 'hardcore' mode for players so they can decide what style they like most.

Casual mode would have instant healing items while hardcore mode plays it more serious, also taking disabilities like broken limbs, diseases and such into account to determine the healing rate.

[Zombra]

I don't see any problems here. Make insta-healing items costly in game money and action points in combat, make them expire and here it is-your so liked harcore mode. I would just imply that there should be a choice cause newbie players won't want that kind of game indeed.

Personally I rather see a 'casual' mode and a 'hardcore' mode for players so they can decide what style they like most. Casual mode would have instant healing items while hardcore mode plays it more serious, also taking disabilities like broken limbs, diseases and such into account to determine the healing rate.

I don't want to be adversarial, but newbie players aren't supposed to want Wasteland 2. Broad market appeal was specifically and repeatedly stated during the Kickstarter to be something that Brian doesn't care about and is not going to reach for. I am looking forward to a challenging game, and I don't mean an easy game with a difficulty slider that increases enemy hit points.

Any development time spent on a "casual mode" is money stolen from the contributions of the backers who were promised a game with tough, old school design principles. If they try to make two games, both designs will suffer.

Again, I'm not trying to make this "us vs you"; it's just how it is. W2 will not be a game that holds your hand and heals all your owies. At least, that was the promise that was made.

[DrunkVision]

I don't see any problems here. Make insta-healing items costly in game money and action points in combat, make them expire and here it is-your so liked harcore mode. I would just imply that there should be a choice cause newbie players won't want that kind of game indeed.

Personally I rather see a 'casual' mode and a 'hardcore' mode for players so they can decide what style they like most. Casual mode would have instant healing items while hardcore mode plays it more serious, also taking disabilities like broken limbs, diseases and such into account to determine the healing rate.

I don't want to be adversarial, but newbie players aren't supposed to want Wasteland 2. Broad market appeal was specifically and repeatedly stated during the Kickstarter to be something that Brian doesn't care about and is not going to reach for. I am looking forward to a challenging game, and I don't mean an easy game with a difficulty slider that increases enemy hit points.

Any development time spent on a "casual mode" is money stolen from the contributions of the backers who were promised a game with tough, old school design principles. If they try to make two games, both designs will suffer.

Again, I'm not trying to make this "us vs you"; it's just how it is. W2 will not be a game that holds your hand and heals all your owies. At least, that was the promise that was made.

Well, I think it's our job as of fans of francsise to advertise this game to our friends and family members, isn't it? And those attracted by our advertisements in social networks, neighbourhood, schools, etc would be newbies who will buy this game and it would be awesome to not only make them buy it, but make them enjoy it.
As I understood developers they would disregard advertising themselves and are asking us to do it instead of them. I don't care how much time it would take for awesome developer team to make this game cause they have enough money and more than enough skill for it.
......but I think you are right, game must be hardcore to keep it's old-stile that we all liked.

[Zombra]

Again, I'm not trying to make this "us vs you"; it's just how it is. W2 will not be a game that holds your hand and heals all your owies. At least, that was the promise that was made.

Well, I think it's our job as of fans of francsise to advertise this game to our friends and family members, isn't it? And those attracted by our advertisements in social networks, neighbourhood, schools, etc would be newbies who will buy this game and it would be awesome to not only make them buy it, but make them enjoy it.
As I understood developers they would disregard advertising themselves and are asking us to do it instead of them. I don't care how much time it would take for awesome developer team to make this game cause they have enough money and more than enough skill for it.
......but I think you are right, game must be hardcore to keep it's old-stile that we all liked.

If we can increase sales for Wasteland 2, absolutely we should. But that does not extend to encouraging inXile to dumb the game down for the mass market, especially since that's the opposite of what this whole project is about. If they design this game so my mom will like it, I will end up hating it, you know?

To kind of bring this back around to the topic, I've probably said this before upthread, but I just want to sum up. Healing potions are a cheap and simplistic solution to a poorly balanced combat and skill system. inXile can do better.

[tuluse]

To kind of bring this back around to the topic, I've probably said this before upthread, but I just want to sum up. Healing potions are a cheap and simplistic solution to a poorly balanced combat and skill system. inXile can do better.

That seems awfully harsh given that just about every RPG on the planet uses them.

[Zombra]

Healing potions are a cheap and simplistic solution to a poorly balanced combat and skill system. inXile can do better.

That seems awfully harsh given that just about every RPG on the planet uses them.

Yep ... except Wasteland.

[Drool]

That seems awfully harsh given that just about every RPG on the planet uses them.

...now. Uses them now.

They didn't always use them. And when they did, it often was a pain in the neck to get or make them. Even with Fallout's relatively stingy distribution of Stimpacks, I still ended the game with around 80 of the fool things.

Also, I think everyone's used to insta-healing items because a lot of cRPGs take place in fantasy worlds where such things make sense. When you have magic, having healing potions is par for the course. Even if they don't have healing potions, they'll have charms and nicknacks with healing spells in them. I think the dearth of modern (nonmagical) cRPGs is why "every RPG on the planet uses them".

[tuluse]

That seems awfully harsh given that just about every RPG on the planet uses them.

...now. Uses them now.

They didn't always use them. And when they did, it often was a pain in the neck to get or make them. Even with Fallout's relatively stingy distribution of Stimpacks, I still ended the game with around 80 of the fool things.

Also, I think everyone's used to insta-healing items because a lot of cRPGs take place in fantasy worlds where such things make sense. When you have magic, having healing potions is par for the course. Even if they don't have healing potions, they'll have charms and nicknacks with healing spells in them. I think the dearth of modern (nonmagical) cRPGs is why "every RPG on the planet uses them".

I'm just going to quote Issac Asimov here, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Anyways, I disagree that health potions are there to fix unbalanced combat in most games. They're there to let players make mistakes without dying.

[Fuzi0n]

I'm just going to quote Issac Asimov here, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I agree. If the devs make stimpacks and other healing items heal instantly or over time is up to them. It is more of a balancing issue than anything else.

[DrunkVision]

If we can increase sales for Wasteland 2, absolutely we should. But that does not extend to encouraging inXile to dumb the game down for the mass market, especially since that's the opposite of what this whole project is about. If they design this game so my mom will like it, I will end up hating it, you know?

To kind of bring this back around to the topic, I've probably said this before upthread, but I just want to sum up. Healing potions are a cheap and simplistic solution to a poorly balanced combat and skill system. inXile can do better.

why do you insist that that would dumb it down? I am not proposing to add pink ponys or cooking contest in it. If that game would be only for old farts to cry a little bit about their lost childhood and that's all - that would be really bad, cause well, games are not made for us to cry about our childhood, but to make us enjoy them, hoping that gooв games are not lost in the history of game development.

Do you hink that Baldur's Gate and D&D system is poorly balanced? What about "Tales of" and "Final Fantasy" series? Go and play your "Munchking" match.

[Lucius]

That seems awfully harsh given that just about every RPG on the planet uses them.

...now. Uses them now.

They didn't always use them. And when they did, it often was a pain in the neck to get or make them. Even with Fallout's relatively stingy distribution of Stimpacks, I still ended the game with around 80 of the fool things.

Also, I think everyone's used to insta-healing items because a lot of cRPGs take place in fantasy worlds where such things make sense. When you have magic, having healing potions is par for the course. Even if they don't have healing potions, they'll have charms and nicknacks with healing spells in them. I think the dearth of modern (nonmagical) cRPGs is why "every RPG on the planet uses them".

I'm just going to quote Issac Asimov here, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Anyways, I disagree that health potions are there to fix unbalanced combat in most games. They're there to let players make mistakes without dying.

Think about it this way then. What if the original Wasteland had some kind of healing potion?

The answer: The game would have been retardedly easy. It would have sped things along between combat, yeah, but it would have made even the scorpitron a mere inconvenience.

[tuluse]

I'm just going to quote Issac Asimov here, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Anyways, I disagree that health potions are there to fix unbalanced combat in most games. They're there to let players make mistakes without dying.

Think about it this way then. What if the original Wasteland had some kind of healing potion?

The answer: The game would have been retardedly easy. It would have sped things along between combat, yeah, but it would have made even the scorpitron a mere inconvenience.

I'm not even advocating instant healing items in Wasteland 2. If the devs can make a fair balanced game without them fine, go for it. I'm just arguing with the instant healing items = work of the devil mindset.

[Zombra]

why do you insist that that would dumb it down? I am not proposing to add pink ponys or cooking contest in it. If that game would be only for old farts to cry a little bit about their lost childhood and that's all - that would be really bad, cause well, games are not made for us to cry about our childhood, but to make us enjoy them, hoping that gooв games are not lost in the history of game development.

Do you hink that Baldur's Gate and D&D system is poorly balanced? What about "Tales of" and "Final Fantasy" series? Go and play your "Munchking" match.

Easy there, cowboy! I'm just saying that Wasteland didn't need a fairy godmother to wave a magic wand and make the hurt go away. Harsh, long-lasting injuries were part of the game. It was hard to get killed, but easy to be knocked out of action. Luckily, you had a party of characters, so the healthy ones could protect the wounded until you got back to town or (slowly) healed the injuries on your own. This is a feature of the gameplay, not an accident. This is what Wasteland was and what it should be again.

We can improve on the "press Esc 1000 times" gameplay, but throwing in healing potions would not only be a very lazy solution; it would be against the spirit of Wasteland.

Yes, I'm an old fart, and yes, I do want to relive the good gameplay of my childhood. Today's games are too easy, and yes, dumbed down. Again: making a challenging game that doesn't hold your hand and give you candy when you screw up is part of the purpose of this project. Again: my non-gamer mom and my 7-year-old child should not like this game. They shouldn't even be able to really comprehend it. If they do, something is wrong.

And did you just say this game should be like Final Fantasy? No, those games weren't poorly balanced, but they were built on very different foundations.

I'm not even advocating instant healing items in Wasteland 2. If the devs can make a fair balanced game without them fine, go for it. I'm just arguing with the instant healing items = work of the devil mindset.

That's reasonable, and I freely admit to being one of the bible thumpers, to extend the metaphor a little

I just disagree with those who seem to think that healing potions are great and it's character downtime that is the devil Good games have had downtime before, and hopefully they will again. Mainly I just think that something very Wasteland will be lost if we see stimpacks or other magic gumdrops of any kind.

Stimpacks made some sense for Fallout because you had only one character. If he got taken out, you had to reload. Not much gameplay value there. In Wasteland, dragging your wounded buddies back to town was part of the game. It wasn't fun every second, but was a challenge, and a rewarding one in the long term.

[rakenan]

I just disagree with those who seem to think that healing potions are great and it's character downtime that is the devil Good games have had downtime before, and hopefully they will again. Mainly I just think that something very Wasteland will be lost if we see stimpacks or other magic gumdrops of any kind.

Stimpacks made some sense for Fallout because you had only one character. If he got taken out, you had to reload. Not much gameplay value there. In Wasteland, dragging your wounded buddies back to town was part of the game. It wasn't fun every second, but was a challenge, and a rewarding one in the long term.

Character downtime is not the devil. Player downtime is the devil. I don't give a rat's backside how long it takes my characters to heal from injuries. I care how long it takes *ME* for my characters to heal from injuries. Sitting around healing is boring. Making me watch my characters sit around healing is worse. Wasteland is not going to be an MMO where timesinks are king and the whole goal of the developers is to waste as much of the players' time as possible for each measurable piece of progression they make. As a single player game, it can and should make every moment I sit in front of my computer playing enjoyable. Deciding to make large stretches of it barely tolerable in order to pad playtime is the very epitome of antiquated game design ideals that should have died a well-deserved death long ago.

[Fuzi0n]

To kind of bring this back around to the topic, I've probably said this before upthread, but I just want to sum up. Healing potions are a cheap and simplistic solution to a poorly balanced combat and skill system. inXile can do better.

Not true. Healing items are just another strategy element.

You cannot avoid damage in most RPGs because of the way they are designed (#2 in the list):
1.) Enemies cause less damage making healing unnecessary
2.) Enemies cause more damage making healing necessary

If you still think that a game is unbalanced (too easy) then play it in ultra nightmare mode, where enemies do quadruple damage and your rangers only do half or something. Bet you're not gonna complain about stimpacks anymore after that.

[Zombra]

Character downtime is not the devil. Player downtime is the devil. I don't give a rat's backside how long it takes my characters to heal from injuries. I care how long it takes *ME* for my characters to heal from injuries.

Absolutely, 100% agree. If there is no challenge or gameplay interest in getting a party back to full fighting strength, healing should be very quick and simple for the player.

As a single player game, it can and should make every moment I sit in front of my computer playing enjoyable.

Mmm ... gonna have to pick this apart. Obviously, fun is good and being a drag is bad, but if you take this to the extreme, nothing uncomfortable should ever happen to you. A game that gives you candy every second you are at your keyboard quickly loses its edge. It's obviously not fun if your party gets wiped, but the legitimate threat of a party wipe makes party victory meaningful. It wasn't exactly "fun", moment-to-moment, when half your party in Wasteland suffered multiple gunshot wounds and lapsed into comas. But surviving that fight anyway and struggling to revive them was fun, and a very rewarding challenge.

[Zombra]

Not true. Healing items are just another strategy element.

OK, cheerfully retracted. Instant healing items are indeed just another strategy element in games that are designed with them in mind.

You cannot avoid damage in most RPGs because of the way they are designed (#2 in the list):
1.) Enemies cause less damage making healing unnecessary
2.) Enemies cause more damage making healing necessary

Sure, absolutely. No one has said that healing should not be necessary in Wasteland 2. In fact I hope we all anticipate a game in which you can get freakin creamed if you're not careful (yet keep playing without reloading if you are tough or resourceful enough to survive it). What I take issue with is a syringe full of unicorn tears that lets a character get right back up.

It's important to note that it's not the unrealism I object to. It's the major leap from the harsh Wasteland gameplay idiom where wounds matter.

If you still think that a game is unbalanced (too easy) then play it in ultra nightmare mode, where enemies do quadruple damage and your rangers only do half or something. Bet you're not gonna complain about stimpacks anymore after that.

Heh, no I wouldn't. I will play and enjoy this game whatever form it comes in ... but I maintain that instant healing is absolutely unnecessary in the game's design and would be damaging to the feel and the fun of the original.

[Lucius]

Not true. Healing items are just another strategy element.

You cannot avoid damage in most RPGs because of the way they are designed (#2 in the list):
1.) Enemies cause less damage making healing unnecessary
2.) Enemies cause more damage making healing necessary

If you still think that a game is unbalanced (too easy) then play it in ultra nightmare mode, where enemies do quadruple damage and your rangers only do half or something. Bet you're not gonna complain about stimpacks anymore after that.

This is an ignorant point of view. You should play more classic RPGs. In nearly every turn based RPG you can complete the game without the use of potions. I know because I rarely use potions in games, particularly in games prior to around 1995 or so. There is nothing tactical or strategic about chugging a potion round after round. Oh and your alternative to good game design is just stupid.

It's pathetic what modern games have done to gamers.