Certificates of completion

[Mandemon]

There is a difference between pledging money for game development and getting a poster for it and asking for A4 paper which amounts nothing else than fancy way of saying "You won". It's the same kind of thing as achievement, which you decried in OP.

As for interest, yes I can. Why was this policy stopped, if it was so popular and good? Perhaps because there was too little demand for it.

Also, how many games did this? i found only 4 games that had reference to this policy:

Pokémon FireRed/LeafGreen
Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
Pokémon Red/Blue
Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven

Source: http://www.giantbomb.com/completion-cer ... e/92-7009/

And I can tell that those Pokemon games don't have anything you described. Apparently you can get a diploma from Professor Oak in FireRed/LeafGreen but otherwise, nope.

As for demand, if this was requested feature, something that many people would want, it would be in many mainstream games. Mainstream games aim for lowest common deliminator, thus if this kind of thing had lot's of potential customers it would be added, especially if it could bring money to the company.

And for Christ sake you really don't read my post do you? I said you are paying for signature of Brian Fargo, not for certificate. Because if that name is only thing that gives it meaning, that if the same paper was worth nothing if it was printed home, only value to it is the Brian Fargo's signature.

[FeelTheRads]

Also, how many games did this? i found only 4 games that had reference to this policy:

Pokémon FireRed/LeafGreen
Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
Pokémon Red/Blue
Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven

Source: http://www.giantbomb.com/completion-cer ... e/92-7009/

And I can tell that those Pokemon games don't have anything you described. Apparently you can get a diploma from Professor Oak in FireRed/LeafGreen but otherwise, nope.

And this is why I ask for people who actually know what I'm talking about to discuss it.
Otherwise we just get random assumptions and simply ignoring facts.

I even linked to a M&M III one, but hey, I guess that doesn't exist either. Fine, you win. You just proved they didn't exist by ignoring their existence. Good job.

Asshole who doesn't read other people's posts. Who's that again?

As for demand, if this was requested feature, something that many people would want, it would be in many mainstream games. Mainstream games aim for lowest common deliminator, thus if this kind of thing had lot's of potential customers it would be added, especially if it could bring money to the company.

Quite possible, and this is why I suggested that the players who are interested should cover the costs. But apparently that's not good either. Why? Well, because let's just assume it doesn't work.

And for Christ sake you really don't read my post do you?

This could be good solution. It gives everyone what they want.

In other words: Everyone should be happy with your "solution".

[Mandemon]

How does me supporting idea of someone else, that still carries the core idea of yours, become me insisting my idea is better? The idea which I quested and said was good solution, was posted by Captain Patch, not by me.

And like I said, those were the only ones I could find. Please provide examples. We add M&M III to the list. Do we have more examples? Drool posted that end game screen on the first page, but I am not sure where it is from.

And you didn't answer my point: If there is demand for it and demand is large enough, why was such practice discontinued?

And we return back to point which is, is this thing worth the time of Inxile do to, even if fans cover the cost per paper? Someone needs to design it and code the system to create the query for certificate.

[Fed]

So when you pay extra to get something shipped from another country you feel you're being told "go fuck yourself"?

Nah, it's not about the 15$.
It's about how you dismiss the the attempts to find other solutions which would not cost these additional 15$. Suppose the certificate would cost 1$. So foreigners would have to pay 16 times more. And that is not something to take into consideration for you.
It's like you say "there is a cool feature to have" ... "it will cost money but not much" ... "foreigners will have to pay several times more*, meh, they'll just make do without. no need to take it into account and look for other ways".
* - which would make the feature much less acceptable** for them.
** - like in "that's bullshit, man!"

That's when I feel I'm being told to shut up and go f**k myself.


So what's bad about being able to print this thing yourself.
You will know it's genuine.
And without vast programming inXile would not know your screenshot or a savegame is a real deal (that you did not cheat). And vast programming resources are better spent elsewhere.

But if you want some legitimacy - even better.
Ask for an online hall of fame where every player can can submit his endgame save. With some rating based on solved quests, killed enemies, gained money and experience...

[FeelTheRads]

Please provide examples.

How many do you want? Will you be happy if everybody did it at some point or is that not enough either because they stopped doing it?
I don't know how many did it exactly.
Sir-Tech did with Wizardry.
New World Computing did it with Might & Magic.
Origin did it with Ultima: http://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/c ... tificates/

How much do you figure it costs to print a one-color page? If you really think it cost them $5 per certificate maybe you shouldn't try to give financial insights anymore.
So, as you can see, they can be made to look nice even if they're cheap. This is my suggestion. Not embossed paper, not flashy stuff.

So it worked. They solved whatever issues could arise from this somehow. You just bring on problems that obviously have a solution. So, what's the point?

Why did they stop... I don't know. Origin seems to have stopped once they were bought by EA. That would imply they wanted to cut extra costs, same reason pretty much everybody dropped cardboard boxes. And, AGAIN, I thought of that before creating this topic and this is why I suggested that the players cover the cost.

So, what's left... the time. Well, I'll point you out again the companies that did it. Apparently they thought it was worth it, even if just to give the players something extra to be happy about because that could strengthen the fan base.
Will that work in the present? I have no idea. You have no idea. It's up to inXile to decide if it's worth the risk of creating some simple design and Fargo signing/stamping one extra paper per day. And even that would be an exaggeration I think. You seem to assume that they would get hundreds of thousands of these. I highly doubt that.

Suppose the certificate would cost 1$. So foreigners would have to pay 16 times more.

Well, let's "suppose" they won't have to pay 16 times more. A letter from USA to Europe is around $2.

And without vast programming inXile would not know your screenshot or a savegame is a real deal (that you did not cheat). And vast programming resources are better spent elsewhere.

Agreed. But if people really want to pay to get a certificate for which they cheated... who cares? I'm not interested in measuring my dick with others. I'd like such a certificate as a cool little memorabilia, which is what they were in the first place.

[CaptainPatch]

Want to talk proof? Why don't you prove that it will cost $5 and that people aren't interested? Can't? Well, I can't either.

All you have been talking about is the certificate, with no real thought of the Shipping costs. Do you want your (approximately) 8-1/2" x 11" certificate simply tri-folded and jammed into a letter-sized envelope? Or would you prefer that you receive it with no creases? In which case, it needs to be mailed as a flat. Furthermore, you wouldn't want the mailman to just fold the letter over to make it fit in the mailbox. That means it would have to be hand-delivered = Priority Mail Letter cardboard envelope = $5.30, just for postage. What if you send off for your certificate, but it never shows up at your door? "Lost in the mail"; happens a lot. Do you expect inXile to send you _another_ certificate, at their expense? (After all, it wasn't _your_ fault that it never arrived!) And another, and another, as it seems the USPS is conspiring to make sure you don't get your certificate? For inXile to safeguard itself from having to potentially keep sending out replacement certificates, it would have to invest in a traceability option on ALL mailings. Via USPS, that raises the Shipping costs to $9.95. Alternatively, they could use UPS or Fedex 2-Day Air Letter options which provide a hand-delivered cardboard envelope which is also traceable. The cost for that can be as little as $7 for local delivers, but can get up to $13.30 for deliveries to Hawaii or Alaska. Regardless of the specific service used, shipments made to another country becomes _significantly_ more expensive.

But if you simply don't care what condition the certificate arrives in (folded, creased, etc.) AND you don't expect anything fancy, then as Mandemon suggested, then you are most probably interested only in the Brian Fargo autograph. Which I guarantee will be the product of an auto-pen, not Brian's personal hand.

All in all, a LOT of bother for something that could instead be the product of a Certificate of Completion that Unlocks at the THE END screen.

But then, I'm sure that none of this is anything you want to see.

BTW, did you notice that _none_ of the companies that "used to do this" are still in business? I wonder why that is....

[Fed]

Well, let's "suppose" they won't have to pay 16 times more. A letter from USA to Europe is around $2.

I don't know about that but I remember that pledging at kickstarter needed additional 15$ for international shipping (if your reward included something not digitally distributed).

[FeelTheRads]

BTW, did you notice that _none_ of the companies that "used to do this" are still in business? I wonder why that is....

Yes, it must be because they sent out certificates of completion which cost them billions.

Do you want your (approximately) 8-1/2" x 11" certificate simply tri-folded and jammed into a letter-sized envelope? Or would you prefer that you receive it with no creases? In which case... [snip]

Yet again, despite all these factors conspiring against it, someone somehow did it. I wonder how. Must have been magic.

But if you simply don't care what condition the certificate arrives in (folded, creased, etc.) AND you don't expect anything fancy, then as Mandemon suggested, then you are most probably interested only in the Brian Fargo autograph. Which I guarantee will be the product of an auto-pen, not Brian's personal hand.

Guarantee? Really? I see we went up from assumptions.

I don't know about that but I remember that pledging at kickstarter needed additional 15$ for international shipping (if your reward included something not digitally distributed).

A full-size game box would cost a hell of lot more than a letter.

[CaptainPatch]

BTW, did you notice that _none_ of the companies that "used to do this" are still in business? I wonder why that is....

Yes, it must be because they sent out certificates of completion which cost them billions.

Nope. It's a symptom that comes with a pattern of making poor business decisions.

It's pretty obvious that you have never run a business and so understandably you haven't a clue about what operating costs will be for even "simple" things. Some of us have run businesses and been involved with business operations at a variety of levels. I, for instance used to work for TSR in its Accounting office. Later I was Operations Manager for a combination game store and Mail Order operation. (Both of which are _still_ in operation, even after 30 years of being in business, and doing quite well.) I've also been working as Shipping Manager for a number of mid-sized companies over the years as well. So I think that _I_, at least have a firmer grasp of what something like this would actually cost than you do.

But, then, you really didn't want anyone poking holes in your idea, so I doubt that you are capable of absorbing contrary opinions, facts, or ideas without feeling compelled to crush anyone that disagrees with you.

[FeelTheRads]

But, then, you really didn't want anyone poking holes in your idea,

I'm still waiting for someone to do it. I said "people should pay for it". What were the replies?
1. Pointing out the obvious that some people won't want to pay, and I fail to see how this is a "hole".
2. Calculations on how much would it cost inXile, therefore completely ignoring the suggestion which implied that the costs should be covered by the players.

From the start, all you did was shoot down the suggestion by providing counter-arguments for situations that weren't even suggested in the first place. Talk about disrespect and crushing everyone who disagrees with you.

Just recently, in one of your previous posts, you touched on the what the players would have to pay, but somehow your numbers sound absurd. They can ship a game-box internationally for $15, but it would cost much more for a simple letter?
Aren't they afraid that they will get lost in the mail again and again and again?
Anyway even that number could be too much, depending on the weight of the box. I've had big-boxed games sent to me from USA for around $10. Cardboard envelopes for 2-3 dollars. A simple letter won't cost more than $2.

[FeelTheRads]

Basically you just assume that the worst will happen if they don't have some sort of shipping insurance, in a desperate attempt to shoot down the idea. The fact is most things get to their destination. Some don't. It happens. Usually companies resend those.
It would be absurd to set up an expensive system for a thing that could be done very cheap and in-house* even at the risk of resending a couple of letters. You won't have hundreds of thousands of requests so you really won't have many failed deliveries.

*If the cost is low, they can ask for a bit more than it actually costs from each so they cover the eventual failed deliveries. They might even get a "profit" from it if the mail doesn't magically lose 90% of their letters.

[Mandemon]

No, we have pointed out how high the cost would be AND we have pointed out time it will take. Also, don't double post, edit your post.

Now, as for the game, it comes with a box. it can survive the travel much better than paper. Furthermore, they aren't delivered in "Must keep in good condition". I once ordered a laptop cooler from Amazon and product arrived from UK. The box? Horribly mangled and beaten. However, the product itself with was in working condition, due to being much more rigid than any paper. Paper folds and gets crumbled easily, even the most basic letters.

Like Captain Patch mentioned, I assume you want your certificate in pristine condition, it's going to take that much money. Are you ready to pay another 15 dollars for autograph after beating the game?

As for game box, those 15 dollars come, in my knowledge, weight and size. I assume it's old time box, where you could fit A4 paper inside. Now, unless you send it in special mail delivery, trust me, it's going to take beating during the travel.

And you keep insisting that long time ago someone did it. Then why isn't it done today? Someone did it once is not a good enough reason to say that this is valid and good course of action. Quite frankly, it seems to be your only argument, apart from refusing to acknowledge problems presented and blaming other for trying to derail thread...

[FeelTheRads]

No, we have pointed out how high the cost would be AND we have pointed out time it will take. Also, don't double post, edit your post.

Now you're a moderator too? I thought you worked as an accountant for inXile? Keep internet lessons for yourself, please.

And you keep insisting that long time ago someone did it. Then why isn't it done today? Someone did it once is not a good enough reason to say that this is valid and good course of action.

No, proof of something working isn't good, but random assumptions and numbers are a valid way of attacking it. Good logic there. At least I BRING something. What do you have besides assumptions that could be true or not?

Quite frankly, it seems to be your only argument, apart from refusing to acknowledge problems presented and blaming other for trying to derail thread...

Letter from USA -> no more than $2. It's a fact. How many times do I need to repeat that? No, not all are lost and no, not all are damaged. So, what's your argument again? Again we go with "some"? Because some won't receive it nobody should get it? Or that they should put in place such an expensive system that would make it so nobody asks for it therefore making the idea pointless in the first place?

Then why isn't it done today?

Read my posts and stop being a disrespectful asshole.
It's not done likely because there's no direct profit from it. But no direct profit doesn't necessarily mean loses, especially if THE PLAYERS PAY. Which makes your question pointless and irrelevant.

[Mandemon]

No, we have pointed out how high the cost would be AND we have pointed out time it will take. Also, don't double post, edit your post.

Now you're a moderator too? I thought you worked as an accountant for inXile?

First, it's basic forum ethics. Second, if you call me by names, I will report you for flaming.

And you keep insisting that long time ago someone did it. Then why isn't it done today? Someone did it once is not a good enough reason to say that this is valid and good course of action.

No, proof of something working isn't good, but random assumptions and numbers are a valid way of attacking it. Good logic there. At least I BRING something. What do you have besides assumptions that could be true or not?

What do you bring? "Someone somehow did it once"? Do you have anything more solid? Numbers? Reasons why this practice, if so popular, is now discontinued, even if one could profit from it?

Quite frankly, it seems to be your only argument, apart from refusing to acknowledge problems presented and blaming other for trying to derail thread...

Letter from USA -> no more than $2. It's a fact. How many times do I need to repeat that? No, not all are lost and no, not all are damaged. So, what's your argument again? Again we go with "some"? Because some won't receive it nobody should get it? Or that they should put in a place such an expensive system that would make it so nobody asks for it therefore making the idea pointless in the first place?

Once again, I direct you back to Captain Patch post. I assume you want this certificate in good condition. This make sure that these certificates arrive surely and in good condition leads to scenario outlined by Captain Patch. Or are you saying these certificates, which I assume are standard A4 papers by your description, with only black text on the without any design and with black spaces for names and dates, are folded and send in normal envelope?

Which leads us to another point:

If this certificate is essentially nothing but a black text on normal, everyday A4 paper that says:

"Ranger ______ completed his mission in Wasteland 2 __/__/____ and is thus granted PRRRRRRROMOTION for his service.
Signed, _____________"

then why waste time and money on these? Even a game can produce this with accurate information and then place a stamp of Brian Fargo's signature on it. Why go trough all trouble of making code to receive message that game is completed, who completed it, is it genuine, where s/he lives, print, add details, sign and post it? How do you know how much to ask money? Does game calculate it? Or do you send a bill after getting the request? Why not just make it possible for player to just print it out himself?

[FeelTheRads]

First, it's basic forum ethics. Second, if you call me by names, I will report you for flaming.

Really? I remember being called an asshole first.

What do you bring? "Someone somehow did it once"?

It's not only "someone" and it's not only "once". But yet again you ignore everything, even direct links to proofs.

What do YOU bring though except for assumptions and made-up numbers?

For anyone who can actually think "something existed and was done many times before" weighs more than "but maybe it doesn't work".

then why waste time and money on these?

And we're back again. "Your idea sucks, why would anyone waste time on it???" You don't get tired of trolling, do you?
I don't know why they would waste time on it. For the same reasons (which I don't know) the other companies did it. I really don't CARE about their reasons. The end-result is what was important, which was a nice piece of memorabilia.

But no, that's not good either because you just somehow know that is sucks and that people don't want it

Also, read the edit of my previous post, at the end. Maybe you missed it, because I didn't double-post.

[Mandemon]

First, it's basic forum ethics. Second, if you call me by names, I will report you for flaming.

Really? I remember being called an asshole first.

Where did I call you that?

What do you bring? "Someone somehow did it once"?

It's not only "someone" and it's not only "once". But yet again you ignore everything, even direct links to proofs.

What do YOU bring though except for assumptions and made-up numbers?

For anyone who can actually think "something existed" weighs more than "but maybe it doesn't work".

I see I got word slipped in, that once isn't supposed to be there.

As for numbers, since I do not know current cost of paper, ink, amount of ink used, postal service cost etc. in the USA, I am force to make guesses. I try to keep my prices down as possible, if you look back you see that when i made my first calculation I assumed price of 0.5 dollars per paper, not including post cost. Which, if I am to trust my fellow posters, is horribly downgraded from the real cost.

then why waste time and money on these?

And we're back again. "Your idea sucks, why would anyone waste time on it???" You don't get tired of trolling, do you?
I don't know why they would waste time on it. For the same reasons (which I don't know) the other companies did it. I really don't CARE about their reasons. The end-result is what was important, which was a nice piece of memorabilia.

But no, that's not good either because you just somehow know that is sucks and that people don't want it

Also, read the edit of my previous post, at the end. Maybe you missed it, because I didn't double-post.

I don't think you know what trolling is. If I were "trolling" you, I would be insulting you directly. However, I have agreed that Captain Patch idea of giving these certificates as something you can print yourself is good method of implementing it, but I disagree with the idea of urging Inxile to use time and money on thing that could be done in easier way.

If you look at the context that particular line is, you see that my line is directed to assumption, based on your description, that these papers are no way different from something you could print at home apart from being signed by Brian Fargo.

Also, you edited it after I posted my reply. Saw it and removed question I directed at that part and changed it slightly to better reflect my point.

[FeelTheRads]

Do you understand the term "memorabilia"? Do you understand why there are people who prefer to buy an official picture or whatever else instead of just printing one from the Internet?

If you don't understand, then you are out of place in this conversation. Simple as that.

Because for you they're the same thing, it's really pointless to convince you otherwise and I'm not even trying. All I'm trying to point out is that it's a thing that WORKED and any logistics problems related to it CAN BE SOLVED. And everybody just ignores that, because apparently facts don't work anymore, but guessing and assuming does.

[Mandemon]

Look, someone did it. Great, awesome, hurrah! Now how they did it? Did they gave special group for that? Or did the members of the programming team handle the request? Did the CEO do it?

Inxile isn't exactly the biggest company out there. It is basically nothing but the programming team, little else.

I do understand the concept of memorabilia, even if I do not see the glamour for it myself. However, I also understand that what you propose, is not really a memorabilia but a request for signature.

If the game allows you to print it in very specific circumstances, does it make any less "official" than getting paper from Inxile?

And my beef not the "problems that can't be solved", my beef is "Is this practical and viable for Inxile to commit resources into"? It's same thing that comes with each and every feature: Is it worth of putting resources into it? Is Fallout style combat worth the time and programming it requires, or should the game have same combat mechanic as Wasteland 1? Is the isometric view worth the programming that the chancing between it and top down view requires, or is that time better spend killing bugs from combat mechanic? Etc. etc.

In my view, what you propose is not worth the resources it requires. However, alternative proposition given by Captain Patch, is. You, however, refuse to consider this option and discuss the merit of it, instead spending time to shout opposition into silence. I, for myself, try to point out weakness of original proposal and try to promote the modified proposal, which I can accept.

[FeelTheRads]

Fine. And I'm not OK with that because it automatically loses it's "memorabilia" aspect, which was the whole point of the topic. That is why I refuse the alternatives, because they ARE NOT the same thing. Not for me, and not for people who care about memorabilia.

[Mandemon]

Are sure? Maybe someone would consider it memorabilia, something that one gained himself. Something that could only be gained by completing the game.

Memorabilia can be so many things. It could be something from Inxile, or something you printed yourself. Some time later, you look at it and remember, "I beat that game".

I said it earlier, memorabilia is emotional attachment to an object that is tied to certain event. I have few trophies and medals, which technically are memorabilia, but lack the emotional attachment that truly makes the memorabilia.