Game should be modding-friendly

[SXX]

After Linux announce nobody will read request so I split my request in new thread from here.

RPG games from end of 90th got a huge support of modder's community.
At start we dont even know how does our loved games programmed, some of them were like blackbox.
But purposeful and skilled people make reverse engineering of formats, engines and create documentation for script API.
After 5-6 years we got a lot of tools, editors, patches, extractors and convertors.
Some mods were successfuly created even for "blackbox" games.

I wont to ask open source engine because it cost too much for project with such small budget. Quality of game is more important than source code.
But I want ask you to spend 1% extra time for benefits in future.

Nothing can be perfect and in each game I want to change something.
That is really bad if I cant because of lazy programmer.

For me "modding-friendly" is:

1. Don't hard-code anything! Please!
2. Where it possible: choose non-proprietary or well-documented formats for textures, music, video, etc.
   That guarantee anybody can easily edit game without special tricks.
3. Use text and XML-like formats instead of binary.
4. Use uncompressed formats or share uncompressed source as well.
   Game will be mostly distributed as digital version, so you don't need to compress anything only to put in on one CD/DVD.
5. Try to provide us non-engine source code of all scripts, shaders, etc.
6. Keep all documentation and every small file used in development.
   Make everything public after game release.
7. Please share design document or internal wiki content as well.
   Probably some features will not included because of development cycle and budget.
   Most of us understand all this limitations, dont be scared to share all these ideas.
8. ... DO NOT hard-code guys! ...
9. I wont repeat it three times!

With a good documentation community can create their own toolset.
Your art, 3d models, text, non-impletated ideas and removed features can become a good base for thousands quality of modifications.
Publishers wont share any extra content because they want to sell DLC, but this project its special.

Modding community can continue to improve game even for 10 years after release!
Let us do that! We will make game of our dream!

I think there is lots of people from community like NMA, so you need to add something else.
My English is bad, so try to understand its directly like if i used google-translate.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
PS: Additional list of interesting ideas and important things:

• From The Tallest post: Developer's Console
• Me: Do not remove all internally systems like scripts debugging mechanisms from public builds.
• Please use world standard UTF-8 encoding for all text data. It makes any translation/writing much easier.
  I was huge problems in Skyrim because russian-language interface and part of localisation was in CP-1251
• Give us .ini config with thousands of groups and options.
  All engine options should be available in .ini configuration file even if they will be not available in menu.
  Its very useful when we can completely tun off some sub-systems, see FPS, wireframe or some debug info. If we want to.
• From google moderator idea from Deerman: Proper multicore support.
  Please think about future modders and give us bariers to use really huge textures or arrays of text or lots scripts.
  Optimize game engine not just for basic game, but for mods as well.
  And give us to set up all limitation by the config files.

I will add everything important in first post.

PSS:
As well you can manage to release pre-builded binary engine and game source code under any possible license.
Its shouldn't be so hard for licensing, because there isn't much difference between .obj/.lib compiled engine and complete executable file.
But game code release give great benefits for serious modifications, so every C++ programmer can add some functionality to the game and build it.
Scripts doesn't give enough functionality and usually mods patch game and engine code in memory.

[enderandrew]

It would be literally impossible to have a game where *nothing* is hard-coded.

FIle format support depends on the engine they choose, same with whether or not they can ship modding tools in the end.

Compressed formats can uncompress easy enough. Save space on the assets you're distributing.

Provide source code and make everything public? Not likely.

[SXX]

It would be literally impossible to have a game where *nothing* is hard-coded.

Yep, but for example Unreal Engine have very good script system which allow to use minimum hard-coded things.

FIle format support depends on the engine they choose, same with whether or not they can ship modding tools in the end.

They can choose very non-popular internal engine of friendly studio.
As result something can have special formats or headers.

Compressed formats can uncompress easy enough. Save space on the assets you're distributing.

You really care about difference between 2GB and 3GB?

Provide source code and make everything public? Not likely.

I not ask about C/C++ source, but scripts (like lua or angelscript or javascript) and shaders usually can be published without copyright problems.

But I don't see any reason to hide documents and non-game content, because most of us played leaked Van Buren alpha and read project-releated materials.

[Bank12]

I absolutely agree that the game should be modding-friendly. Mods are what turn good RPG's into great ones, and can build a community around a game long after it has been released. Quite simply, including modding tools should be a no-brainer.

[The Tallest]

With the "modding" aspect we'd also like the "Developer's Console" available as well. It makes it asier to test our mods as well as cheat for those of us who like to tank.

[SXX]

With the "modding" aspect we'd also like the "Developer's Console" available as well. It makes it asier to test our mods as well as cheat for those of us who like to tank.

I think developer console its great idea for modding, but its shouldn't be available by default. E.g require config file editing.

Because its not really good when you can easily cheat by "tgm".
Out of the box cheats (which are not require special search in google) can kill some and ways to complete true-RPG quest.
IDDQD

[ctankep]

It's important to note that we should be easily able to create and import our own creations into the game, not only write or alter scripts. If you can rig a 3D model and put it into the game animated and all that goes a long way to increase the game's lifespan. Else it will turn out like fallout where you have to draw a thousand sprites over an existing animation and replace something already in the game.

[hiptanaka]

First and foremost I want a good RPG that is true to its heritage.

Setting out to develop a general RPG engine with versatile modding support is a big task on its own.

If they don't have the budget or the experience to do it, I say don't care too much about modding.

[enderandrew]

You really care about difference between 2GB and 3GB?

Compression can make a huge difference. And people who have download limits on their ISPs care about file size. People who want to download the game faster care about file size. Those maintaining the distribution channels care about file size.

[madmax]

I agree the game must be modding friendly. I play a lot of Fallout 3 and Stalker and with heavy modding they are an amazing experience and I've continued playing it ever since it came out.

With modding a game is not just a game. It's also a platform in and of itself as well as a pool of talent for your next game.

Looking forwards to this game!!

[SXX]

Compression can make a huge difference.

I dont sure that is game like new Wasteland can be really big.

And people who have download limits on their ISPs care about file size. People who want to download the game faster care about file size. Those maintaining the distribution channels care about file size.

I dont sure size make any difference for systems like Steam/Desura, if yes - okay.
But I think most of people have fast internet right now.

But I mostly told about serious lossy compression methods which usually used from things like textures and music.
I dont see anything bad in archiving methods and lossless compression.

Non-compressed versions should be available anyway, because usually its helps with editing alot.

[SXX]

Setting out to develop a general RPG engine with versatile modding support is a big task on its own.

No its not big.

I don't want to ask to create special toolset or complete mod integration support like it did in Bethesda games.
But I want be allowed to edit anything easily, so that is just very small task in content structure.

I ask not make huge problem for modders if they dont have very serious reasons.

Most of modding problems usually go as result of important things hard-coding (stats, triggers and in game events) and special-super-cool-proprietary-data formats.
E.g just in few games I can open game directory and edit scripts, stats or textures. I can mostly do that in early Total War games.
But in some games its process goes like:

1. I want to edit some text data in game
2. Read and find in internet where things I want to edit because game have just few files: data1.dat, data2.dat, data3.dat
3. Download very special .dat unpacker which usually works only on windows and create by fans
4. Unpack and found some strange file structure: GEN001/TXTR0E2.bin
5. Open it my special translation editor and found that is Russian language doesn't supported because game doesn't use UTF-8 but some special encoding which wont work in translation editor.
6. Okay I make my own special convertor to fix encoding problems.
7. I try to pack data file back, but &%*7%8%$ $%7$4$ game wont work! Its saying me "Checksum mistmach".
8. Okay I read forum and find that I need to make special patch to CHDATE.dat file.
9. I patch in and run, but I wont edit this idiot translation anymore!

Its can to be much bigger problem if I need to edit scripts for example, because scripted API usually have no documentation and need lots of special tricks with compilation/debugging.

I can write lots and lots of stories like that, but most of people who works on mods for Fallout/GTA/Age of Empires understand me well.

[hiptanaka]

So not mod support, but a mod-friendly structure? Yeah, that's different. I'm sure they'll do their best with that.

[SXX]

So not mod support, but a mod-friendly structure? Yeah, that's different. I'm sure they'll do their best with that.

I want to believe in that.
If game will be coded accuracy and everything well documented we can create our own mod-support system over normal game.
Its not so hard to create meta-packages for mod installation without any special support in game.
Its will be much simple than reverse fallout 1/2 DAT formats

Situation with mods compatibility basically the same with Linux version: its not hard, but nobody care about that.
Most of developers who make good games of 90th never think somebody will edit/improve them after 10 years.

I was wonder about projects like Baldur's Gate Redux or other global modifications for games with a good structure.
And I want to see something like Oblivion's FCOM after 3 years of Wasteland 2 will be released.

[skotona]

If it's all open and available, it somehow kills the magic. When you can read the scripts, see file names and textures it spoils the atmosphere of unknown world you should explore in-game. When you can look at the outside decorations of the world you just don't believe in it so much.

I think the files should be packaged and hidden from users. But of course there can be some tools to allow building these packages. There should be possibility for modding but modding should not be too easy.

[SXX]

I think the files should be packaged and hidden from users. But of course there can be some tools to allow building these packages. There should be possibility for modding but modding should not be too easy.

Do you often using executable files from directory?

I played lots of games which I never want to modify and I never think to open their resources.

[skotona]

Do you often using executable files from directory?

I played lots of games which I never want to modify and I never think to open their resources.

I often like to open a game's folder and see what's there. And if I find some open files like images or music I end up checking them all.

Even if you don't look into the folder, just knowing how the game world is built and what parts it consists of makes it less believable.

[UniversalWolf]

I think it's important to try and avoid creating obstacles for modders, since the modding community is what will insure this game is still around 15-20 years from now.

[SXX]

I often like to open a game's folder and see what's there. And if I find some open files like images or music I end up checking them all.

Game content can be packed in simple zip archive with CONTENT.ENCRYPTED name.
I think it will be enough for you to do not touch with game content without a reason.
Yup?

But its shouldn't be packed in binary blob with unknown format just because somebody can open it and see some images, imho.

Even if you don't look into the folder, just knowing how the game world is built and what parts it consists of makes it less believable.

By this login you shouldn't read this forum because there found thread about game engine.

Every game made of parts, but some people want to got complete product, and some want customize its for himself.
I usually play with mods which are make game more realistic and harder.

[Agrajag]

I agree with the OP. I've spent countless hours modding for fallout 2 (aka bashing my head against a brick wall); something which could only really be done using a buggy mapper and a hard to use scripting language. While it was easy enough to make small changes in the scripts, dialogues and maps, making a full conversion mod was almost impossible without a lot of expertice (most of which I don't have, by the way). The scripting was severely limited, and although there were (thankfully) some documentation, not everything worked as it should, or at all. Making elevators, adding new critters instead of overwriting existing ones, or having a custom world map with a new starting location were all mind-boggingly difficult for somebody who's not a hacker. Removing the hard coded video sequences (the hakunin dreams, if you recall) or the "7 year crash" (after 7 (in game) years, the game would crash) proved to be virtually impossible. If it weren't for some fan-made custom applications, writing new dialogues would be an overly painful process.

I don't know enough to say how things should be done, but I hope and trust that you will at least try to avoid things like the above as far as possible, even if you don't make a modding toolkit.