Jagged Alliance Don'ts

[jymm]

Man do people get touchy. Sure, BIA isn't near as good as the original products but those games are also way old. And the intention of BIA is clearly to hew very closely to the originals (which I played to death and are still on the shelf here in my office less than 8 feet from me as I type this.) So I don't think Lucius' points are invalidated just because they are based on the lesser BIA version.

Personally I don't mind item repair, but it is much more tedious in BIA than in JA2. You could do repair from the worldmap view and with a single toolbox, so it was much less burdensome. It seems like a decent implementation of item wear would make some sense in a post-apocalyptic world. (And maybe this is one place where having played BIA instead of the original colors the view.)

I also love the tactical tedium of stances and micromanagement because I'm OCD like that. But I agree they belong in a pure tactical combat game like Jag, not in an RPG like Wasteland.

And the rest of your points about lousy voice-acting, better UI, etc all seem spot-on to me.

[UniversalWolf]

I want everything from JA2 1.13 that ought to be in a PnP RPG: stances, cover, weapon degradation and jamming, attachments, bouncing grenades off walls, destroyable environments, day and night conditions, and camo values. Throw in some ideas from other good combat systems like Temple of Elemental Evil (which has extremely deep combat...yet it's clearly a role-playing game), and you're in business.

What Wasteland 2 doesn't need is 500 different guns like JA2 has. That's overkill for W2.

JA2 1.13 is the only version worth discussing because it's the only version that has had a rabid fanbase modding it to awesomeness for the last 15 years. No offense (again).

[Seytan]

Play Jagged Alliance 2 or the original, not that crap.

This, with the 1.13 patch/mod. I still play it every so often.

[rakenan]

JA2 1.13 is the only version worth discussing because it's the only version that has had a rabid fanbase modding it to awesomeness for the last 15 years. No offense (again).

And JA2 1.13 would not have existed without the high quality game embodied in the previous JA2 patches. I thus strongly dispute the assertion that only 1.13 is worth discussing - because a huge number of fans were done with JA2 long before 1.13 ever existed.

In any case, I think we can both agree that Back In Action is a horrible misuse of the Jagged Alliance name.

[ChampKind]

Some people on here are way to sentimental or elitist. So BIA is not JA2, it must garbage? There are many, many things about BIA that could be improved, yes, but to act like it is some monstrosity that shouldn't be even mentioned is asinine. I played JA2 quite a bit and still have the disc packed up somehwere. I really enjoyed it back in the day. I also enjoy BIA, and think it has some very admirable aspirations. I think the pausable real-time combat, aside from the horrible AI, is an excellent game mechanic (though it could use some tweaking.) If you are bashing BIA simply because it is not your precious JA2, get over yourself.

[Seytan]

Some people on here are way to sentimental or elitist. So BIA is not JA2, it must garbage? There are many, many things about BIA that could be improved, yes, but to act like it is some monstrosity that shouldn't be even mentioned is asinine. I played JA2 quite a bit and still have the disc packed up somehwere. I really enjoyed it back in the day. I also enjoy BIA, and think it has some very admirable aspirations. I think the pausable real-time combat, aside from the horrible AI, is an excellent game mechanic (though it could use some tweaking.) If you are bashing BIA simply because it is not your precious JA2, get over yourself.

I played the steam demo for all of 10 minutes. The camera was a big problem for me, second, lack of FOW put it in a class in my mind at least, since I dont WANT YOU to assume I am also sentimental or elitist...of its own, and certianly not comperable to JA at all. The camera in fact reminded me of MAW 9th company. It was horrid in that game as well.

[Independent George]

Some people on here are way to sentimental or elitist. So BIA is not JA2, it must garbage? There are many, many things about BIA that could be improved, yes, but to act like it is some monstrosity that shouldn't be even mentioned is asinine. I played JA2 quite a bit and still have the disc packed up somehwere. I really enjoyed it back in the day. I also enjoy BIA, and think it has some very admirable aspirations. I think the pausable real-time combat, aside from the horrible AI, is an excellent game mechanic (though it could use some tweaking.) If you are bashing BIA simply because it is not your precious JA2, get over yourself.

Except... the fact that every one of us backs v1.13 should be a clear indicator that we're not sentimentalists. We have a clear love for turn-based combat and micromanagement, which is present in the original, expanded greatly in v1.13, and lost in BIA. Those are two of the main elements we're advocating with regard to Wasteland 2, so the dismissal of BIA is precisely because those elements are not relevant to BIA. And since Wasteland 2 was explicitly pitched to us as a turn-based game, then BIA is clearly the less relevant comparison.

To take this one step further, the mere existence of the 1.13 patch is an argument in itself. This was a crowdsourced, user-generated mod created, tested, and updated by an army of volunteers working on their spare time. In many ways, the evolution of 1.13 can be viewed as the natural predecessor to the Wasteland 2 kickstarter campaign; fans wanted a game that didn't exist, so they took it on themselves to hack a game they loved. You fundamentally misunderstand our devotion to the game in exactly the same way publishers misunderstood the market for Wasteland 2.

It's not nostalgia; it's a niche market with a devoted, passionate fan base. We're all still playing JA2 today, despite its blocky graphics and outdated engine, because no publisher was willing to back a game in that genre in the last fifteen years. The reason we still have JA2 on our hard drives is not sentimentality; it's because nothing has come out in fifteen years that remotely resembles what we want, despite our desire to fork over our hard-earned dollars for it.

Does any of that description sound the least bit familiar to you?

[Woolfe]

Some people on here are way to sentimental or elitist. So BIA is not JA2, it must garbage? There are many, many things about BIA that could be improved, yes, but to act like it is some monstrosity that shouldn't be even mentioned is asinine. I played JA2 quite a bit and still have the disc packed up somehwere. I really enjoyed it back in the day. I also enjoy BIA, and think it has some very admirable aspirations. I think the pausable real-time combat, aside from the horrible AI, is an excellent game mechanic (though it could use some tweaking.) If you are bashing BIA simply because it is not your precious JA2, get over yourself.

Except... the fact that every one of us backs v1.13 should be a clear indicator that we're not sentimentalists. We have a clear love for turn-based combat and micromanagement, which is present in the original, expanded greatly in v1.13, and lost in BIA. Those are two of the main elements we're advocating with regard to Wasteland 2, so the dismissal of BIA is precisely because those elements are not relevant to BIA. And since Wasteland 2 was explicitly pitched to us as a turn-based game, then BIA is clearly the less relevant comparison.

To take this one step further, the mere existence of the 1.13 patch is an argument in itself. This was a crowdsourced, user-generated mod created, tested, and updated by an army of volunteers working on their spare time. In many ways, the evolution of 1.13 can be viewed as the natural predecessor to the Wasteland 2 kickstarter campaign; fans wanted a game that didn't exist, so they took it on themselves to hack a game they loved. You fundamentally misunderstand our devotion to the game in exactly the same way publishers misunderstood the market for Wasteland 2.

It's not nostalgia; it's a niche market with a devoted, passionate fan base. We're all still playing JA2 today, despite its blocky graphics and outdated engine, because no publisher was willing to back a game in that genre in the last fifteen years. The reason we still have JA2 on our hard drives is not sentimentality; it's because nothing has come out in fifteen years that remotely resembles what we want, despite our desire to fork over our hard-earned dollars for it.

Does any of that description sound the least bit familiar to you?

I never played JA. I think I want to now... Specifically the 1.13 patch

[Seytan]

Some people on here are way to sentimental or elitist. So BIA is not JA2, it must garbage? There are many, many things about BIA that could be improved, yes, but to act like it is some monstrosity that shouldn't be even mentioned is asinine. I played JA2 quite a bit and still have the disc packed up somehwere. I really enjoyed it back in the day. I also enjoy BIA, and think it has some very admirable aspirations. I think the pausable real-time combat, aside from the horrible AI, is an excellent game mechanic (though it could use some tweaking.) If you are bashing BIA simply because it is not your precious JA2, get over yourself.

Except... the fact that every one of us backs v1.13 should be a clear indicator that we're not sentimentalists. We have a clear love for turn-based combat and micromanagement, which is present in the original, expanded greatly in v1.13, and lost in BIA. Those are two of the main elements we're advocating with regard to Wasteland 2, so the dismissal of BIA is precisely because those elements are not relevant to BIA. And since Wasteland 2 was explicitly pitched to us as a turn-based game, then BIA is clearly the less relevant comparison.

To take this one step further, the mere existence of the 1.13 patch is an argument in itself. This was a crowdsourced, user-generated mod created, tested, and updated by an army of volunteers working on their spare time. In many ways, the evolution of 1.13 can be viewed as the natural predecessor to the Wasteland 2 kickstarter campaign; fans wanted a game that didn't exist, so they took it on themselves to hack a game they loved. You fundamentally misunderstand our devotion to the game in exactly the same way publishers misunderstood the market for Wasteland 2.

It's not nostalgia; it's a niche market with a devoted, passionate fan base. We're all still playing JA2 today, despite its blocky graphics and outdated engine, because no publisher was willing to back a game in that genre in the last fifteen years. The reason we still have JA2 on our hard drives is not sentimentality; it's because nothing has come out in fifteen years that remotely resembles what we want, despite our desire to fork over our hard-earned dollars for it.

Does any of that description sound the least bit familiar to you?

You sir deserve a salute. I couldnt have said it better.

[ChampKind]

Some people on here are way to sentimental or elitist. So BIA is not JA2, it must garbage? There are many, many things about BIA that could be improved, yes, but to act like it is some monstrosity that shouldn't be even mentioned is asinine. I played JA2 quite a bit and still have the disc packed up somehwere. I really enjoyed it back in the day. I also enjoy BIA, and think it has some very admirable aspirations. I think the pausable real-time combat, aside from the horrible AI, is an excellent game mechanic (though it could use some tweaking.) If you are bashing BIA simply because it is not your precious JA2, get over yourself.

Except... the fact that every one of us backs v1.13 should be a clear indicator that we're not sentimentalists. We have a clear love for turn-based combat and micromanagement, which is present in the original, expanded greatly in v1.13, and lost in BIA. Those are two of the main elements we're advocating with regard to Wasteland 2, so the dismissal of BIA is precisely because those elements are not relevant to BIA. And since Wasteland 2 was explicitly pitched to us as a turn-based game, then BIA is clearly the less relevant comparison.

To take this one step further, the mere existence of the 1.13 patch is an argument in itself. This was a crowdsourced, user-generated mod created, tested, and updated by an army of volunteers working on their spare time. In many ways, the evolution of 1.13 can be viewed as the natural predecessor to the Wasteland 2 kickstarter campaign; fans wanted a game that didn't exist, so they took it on themselves to hack a game they loved. You fundamentally misunderstand our devotion to the game in exactly the same way publishers misunderstood the market for Wasteland 2.

It's not nostalgia; it's a niche market with a devoted, passionate fan base. We're all still playing JA2 today, despite its blocky graphics and outdated engine, because no publisher was willing to back a game in that genre in the last fifteen years. The reason we still have JA2 on our hard drives is not sentimentality; it's because nothing has come out in fifteen years that remotely resembles what we want, despite our desire to fork over our hard-earned dollars for it.

Does any of that description sound the least bit familiar to you?

Hey, that is perfectly reasonable, and a much better response than "that game is dumb and your opinion means nothing" responses that were posted before. I understand that WL2 is going to be turn-based, and I am fine with that. I loved both original Fallout games, they are a couple of my all time favorites. I never played Wasteland, but I jumped at the opportunity to contribute to the Kickstarter effort to get this game made.

The only reason I signed up after noticing this forum yesterday, was seeing the moronic responses the OP got. I will admit that I regrettably didn't read the entire thread before posting, and I should have. Legitimate discussions and reasons why a thing won't work or isn't desirable is one thing; elitist insults and dismissal is another.

edit: I also should point out that I enjoy a wide variety of genres of games, I have been playing PC games since the early 80's, and I don't discriminate based on FPS, RTS, RPG, browser games, text based, turn based or bouillabaisse. If it is fun, and if the developed legitimately attempted to make something fun and not simply exploit a market, I give it the benefit of the doubt.

Since we were discussing BIA, I will say that I do not believe the developer was trying to exploit the name of JA. I think they were really trying to progress the series. As I said before, there is a lot that went wrong with it, but I also find it to be a relatively enjoyable game in its own right. I certainly don't consider it a future classic, and won't play it much when I'm done with it.

If some of you hate it because it doesn't fit into your 'niche,' that is perfectly acceptable. Don't play it. And on a forum like this, when it is mentioned for discussion, give reasons why you don't want its features showing up in WL2. Don't just say things like "If you're really enjoying Jagged Alliance: Back in Action, I have to say that it might be better to simply ignore your opinions."

[Mandemon]

Don't try. This place is sort of hardcore game hipster place, where anything that got sequel in past 20 years is horrible mainstream shit and those series were cool before they became popular.

[Wanderer]

This place is sort of hardcore game hipster place, where anything that got sequel in past 20 years is horrible mainstream shit and those series were cool before they became popular.

Not true. The Witcher and Dark Souls are, for example, great games.
It's just that most old-school fans generally don't like Bethesda's and EAware products.

[Mandemon]

This place is sort of hardcore game hipster place, where anything that got sequel in past 20 years is horrible mainstream shit and those series were cool before they became popular.

Not true. The Witcher and Dark Souls are, for example, great games.
It's just that most old-school fans generally don't like Bethesda's and EAware products.

And then we got people who detest new X-Com(The TBS version, not FPS), JA:BIA, even Van Burea (Fallout 3 tech demo from Interplay)...

[Lucius]

I appreciate the support ChapKind, but it's pointless. One thing I learned from this thread is that it's asinine to argue with ignorant people. I made a thread bashing BIA and got flamed by people who hate BIA. It didn't make much sense at the time.

Now I understand the problem is these folks want glorified gun porn; a gun oiling simulator. Even moreso than Back in Action! I want a skill based RPG and many people apparently would rather have Wasteland 2 be a micromanagement fest. If I have to look up guns on the internet to find out if my SMG guy should use it or my assault rifle guy, then I am going to be pissed.

[Seytan]

I appreciate the support ChapKind, but it's pointless. One thing I learned from this thread is that it's asinine to argue with ignorant people. I made a thread bashing BIA and got flamed by people who hate BIA. It didn't make much sense at the time.

Now I understand the problem is these folks want glorified gun porn; a gun oiling simulator. Even moreso than Back in Action! I want a skill based RPG and many people apparently would rather have Wasteland 2 be a micromanagement fest. If I have to look up guns on the internet to find out if my SMG guy should use it or my assault rifle guy, then I am going to be pissed.

Have you actually ever played JA2 with the 1.13 patch? It is one of the best turn based tactical games made period. It isnt about the guns, it isnt about playing a gun oiling sim...the game is simply outstanding. It also amusingly enough has more content, the game JA2...then many new games today.

I frankly suggest you actually play it before you make assumptions about the type of folks...we are.

[Lucius]

I appreciate the support ChapKind, but it's pointless. One thing I learned from this thread is that it's asinine to argue with ignorant people. I made a thread bashing BIA and got flamed by people who hate BIA. It didn't make much sense at the time.

Now I understand the problem is these folks want glorified gun porn; a gun oiling simulator. Even moreso than Back in Action! I want a skill based RPG and many people apparently would rather have Wasteland 2 be a micromanagement fest. If I have to look up guns on the internet to find out if my SMG guy should use it or my assault rifle guy, then I am going to be pissed.

Have you actually ever played JA2 with the 1.13 patch? It is one of the best turn based tactical games made period. It isnt about the guns, it isnt about playing a gun oiling sim...the game is simply outstanding. It also amusingly enough has more content, the game JA2...then many new games today.

I frankly suggest you actually play it before you make assumptions about the type of folks...we are.

Everything here is based off reading http://ja2v113.pbworks.com/w/page/4218338/Features

Most of this stuff doesn't apply to this thread, although I'm sure they were huge improvements. Things like AI, character traits, keyboard shortcuts, resolution, etc. What does apply here is #9 on that list titled "Items and Attributes". Ok now defend "folding & retractable stocks" included in a video game as something other than gun porn. How about 10 new ammo types, most for most weapons. Really? 10 plus what was in the original game. If not this, then how about

A few hundred new guns, including the guns from Unfinished Business. I'll let you discover these on your own as you play, but there is quite a variety All weapon stats have been totally re-engineered from the ground up.

A few hundred guns? Nah, not gun porn at all. Let me also point out this "Items & attributes" section doesn't include any attribute changes. Only items, no attributes. I want a skill based role playing game, an RPG like Wasteland was an RPG. Not an item based tactical shooter or whatever it was you called Jagged Alliance.

[Woolfe]

Everything here is based off reading http://ja2v113.pbworks.com/w/page/4218338/Features

Most of this stuff doesn't apply to this thread, although I'm sure they were huge improvements. Things like AI, character traits, keyboard shortcuts, resolution, etc. What does apply here is #9 on that list titled "Items and Attributes". Ok now defend "folding & retractable stocks" included in a video game as something other than gun porn. How about 10 new ammo types, most for most weapons. Really? 10 plus what was in the original game. If not this, then how about

A few hundred new guns, including the guns from Unfinished Business. I'll let you discover these on your own as you play, but there is quite a variety All weapon stats have been totally re-engineered from the ground up.

A few hundred guns? Nah, not gun porn at all. Let me also point out this "Items & attributes" section doesn't include any attribute changes. Only items, no attributes. I want a skill based role playing game, an RPG like Wasteland was an RPG. Not an item based tactical shooter or whatever it was you called Jagged Alliance.

In all fairness there is a lot of stuff in that update. And it is a fan based update, so you would only need a couple of gun nuts to make it "gun porn" and "gun porn" doesn't necessarily detract from the game, unless it is inherently unbalancing.

[rakenan]

This place is sort of hardcore game hipster place, where anything that got sequel in past 20 years is horrible mainstream shit and those series were cool before they became popular.

Not true. The Witcher and Dark Souls are, for example, great games.
It's just that most old-school fans generally don't like Bethesda's and EAware products.

I think it's more that most old-school fans are unwilling to admit what they like in a forum like this that is so relentlessly hostile to anything published by a big publisher in the past 15 to 20 years. The atmosphere in these forums is positively toxic on the subject, especially, of Bethesda and EA. I've several times discarded posts because I had to mention a Bioware or Bethesda game in a positive light to make my point and figured the flamewar would derail the thread.

People need to stop believing that getting into ****-waving contests of who can hate EA and Bethesda more on these forums. It doesn't make anybody look cool, except possibly the people smart enough to avoid the subject. You can like a niche product at the same time as you like the mainstream products that have largely displaced it.

[Seytan]

Seems to me some of you just want to keep spinning your own wheels :} I frankly never mentioned EA Bethesda etc. Was making a observation about how ignorance isnt your friend. I enjoy JA for the game it presents. Wow! Anyway keep spamming that chaff, im sure you just might deflect one missile someday.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

Don't bother. His ego was wounded on page 1 and now he's picking on legitimate features of the 1.13 mod.

Hey, in terms of ammo and other shits, modded Fo:NV is much more a gun porn game than JA 2 with 1.13. Seriously, I can make ammo with specific grain count in Fo:NV. Not even 1.13 went that far. As for folding stocks, go ask a security or military personel why they have hard-ons for them. It has a place in combat.