No insta-healing items

[DethRaid]

It was mentioned earlier on this board, but it's kinda weird storming into a boss's base (I'm trying to kill the gang in Quartz ATM) and then waiting until my health goes back up. I've found that in dungeons and the like, there are so many random encounters that you can't actually wait long enough to heal, which I think is pretty nice, but the options's still there for me to run out of town and wait for a while, which I've used quite a few times. For me, being a younger player who's almost exclusively played games with insta-heal (RuneScape and Skyrim, to name a few), I definitely want to see something that can heal my character other than waiting around or going to a doctor. The idea of having a skill that allows one party member to heal others makes as much sense as having a NPC who can heal members of the party. I like the idea of having certain items, like a medkit, that can be used by the player to heal. Of course, these things would be very rare in a post-apocalyptic setting like Wasteland 2, but as I said before, if an NPC can heal damage near-instantly, why then should the player not be able to do the same?

I'd also like to point out a couple games which limit one's healing outside of combat: an MMO from Nexon named Dragon Nest and that good old tabletop RPG, Dungeons and Dragons.

In Dragon Nest, healing potions exits, but they heal maybe 10% of your total health, and there's a 60 second cooldown between potion use. It's enough to keep you from dying, but not enough to heal you to anywhere near full health. For that, you have to hope from a health drop from an enemy. There are drops that heal 30%, 50%, and 100% of your health which you have to rely on for any serious healing. I think that this is a viable option: There's an item, maybe rare, that can heal you enough to give you one more turn until you go unconscious. For the intents of the current discussion we can ignore the healing drops.

The system in Dungeons and Dragons also is worth mentioning, I think. There are health potions that can heal a substantial amount of health, but they are fairly expensive. Using one in combat basically makes you forfeit your turn. If that wasn't enough, if you're too close to an enemy, the enemy gets an extra attack because you're leaving yourself unguarded. Bear in mind that this all takes place in a fantasy setting and that there are fairly common healing spells one can use to heal (although, again, it takes up your whole turn and gives your enemy an extra attack against you). The point of this is that there's an option to heal your character up to full health but it's only viable out of combat.

I also think that the idea of healing over time is a good one, as in nanobots. It's been suggested before in this thread that nanobots would be able to heal your character a little over time. I personally like that idea a lot better than simply standing around waiting. As I'm sure some of you have realized, simply standing around does very little to heal something like a broken arm. You need medical attention to get the bone set correctly, and even then it can take months to grow back. The same does for bullet wounds: yes, they heal over time, but this time is usually on the order of weeks, not hours like in the original Wasteland. I'm just saying this to note that if realism is what one is going for, a simple wait option is, IMO, considerably less that viable.

Finally, although I really don't know if the Commodore 64 or Apple II has mouses, in the version of Wasteland that I have, one can click and hold on the party in order to wait. jsyk

[Harpo]

I just don't see how they work in non-fantasy games. I mean, Stimpacks are silly. Max Payne used painkillers which was cute, but also silly. Too many games to count used "medkits" or the like, which was also silly. Wounds take time to heal, and no amount of drugs or gauze is going to change that. I suppose a super-futuristic setting could use Sci-Fi's magic: nanites.

I mean, I can wave a hand for the fantasy setting and their potions, because it's magic, it gets to cheat, but all modern healing items in games just seem kind of a narrative cheat.

I do agree that the insta-heal items are a bit silly - even 66 years into the future. I think that party based combat tactics can work well without them. If one or more of your squad members are in danger, you'll have to get them into cover and either finish the fight without them or choose to retreat. I might even imagine a system where you can stop bleeding and attend to the wounded soldiers to keep them from passing out or even die.

But (there's always a but), I do think it's a little bit over the top that you as a player should have to travel x miles to attend a doctor, rest for Y days to recuperate, just to travel the x miles back and do the same fight all over again. Although realistic it doesn't really add to the gaming experience in my opinion. That's just downtime you could have spent at RPG elements or combat. I would suggest a compromise between realism and fun gaming meaning that you could heal your squad members with some kind of medical skills once out of harms way. This could not be done in combat but require you to retreat to the point where you are safe. And no macros dammit (sorry Drool, but we're talking 2012 here - not 1988)!

[Drool]

Bah. Macros were handy. I first played on the C64, so when I first got to taste those sweet, sweet PC macros, it was love at first sight.

[TheLastBrunnenG]

But (there's always a but), I do think it's a little bit over the top that you as a player should have to travel x miles to attend a doctor, rest for Y days to recuperate, just to travel the x miles back and do the same fight all over again. Although realistic it doesn't really add to the gaming experience in my opinion. That's just downtime you could have spent at RPG elements or combat. I would suggest a compromise between realism and fun gaming meaning that you could heal your squad members with some kind of medical skills once out of harms way. This could not be done in combat but require you to retreat to the point where you are safe.

This. I'm totally on board with lack of Potions of Extra Healing, as long as the alternative isn't hyper-realism to the point that it makes the game un-fun.

[cynip]

How about the rainbow 6/mech warrior approach
Instead of a general hit point, we have body part and its effectiveness.
When take damage, effectiveness drops, eventually disable.
(e.g. I like that in rainbow 6, if you're shot at leg, you move slower, you won't die, but crippled. )

In combat, you can apply first aid skill/instant heal to stop it from further dropping.
The character effectiveness is still affected,
may be to a point that you think u can't go on and retreat

Outside of combat the doctor skill plays in to fix the wounds, to restore the parts effectiveness.

And we can add layers like permanent damage, and/or gear/skill to prevent them.
Or more effects if wounds not treated properly (wound > infection > whole body damage)

[cbu]

No instant-healing.. but healing aid is ok

Looking back at WL... If:
100 to 1 = Normal
0 to -9 = Unconscious (UNC)
-10 to -19 = Serious (SER)
-20 to -29 = Critical (CRT)
-30 to -39 = Mortal (MRT)
-40 to -49 = Comatose (COM)
-50 or less = Deceased (DEC)

i) You can have a steroid like item that make your character stay conscious longer in battle for a limited time.
Bad thing is a closer to dead situation, since in WL1, enemy will not shoot characters that are unconscious.
After eating the steroid, for x turns:
100 to -9 = Normal
NA = Unconscious (UNC)
-10 to -19 = Serious (SER) but still conscious
-20 to -29 = Critical (CRT) but still conscious
-30 to -39 = Mortal (MRT)
-40 to -49 = Comatose (COM)
-50 or less = Deceased (DEC)

ii) Stimpack
a)only heals one hp per turn for x turn
b)will not raise your current hp to more 20% of your max hp
c) can not heal past a status except for unconscious
eg1. You are at -39, you can max heal to -30 with it.
eg2. You are at -9, you can max heal to 20.
d)effects not stackable

[SockMan]

I'm definitely on board with the no stimpack insta-heal devices bandwagon, though I'm not opposed to very rare and expensive quick-heal and condition stabilizing items like some sort of nanomachine injection. The keys are rarity and not providing instant healing (just quicker healing).

Also, eating food should not heal you.

On a related note, I like having separate skills for medic and doctor (similar to WL1 and FO1+2); the medic skill could be used for small amounts of "healing" (bandaging) and perhaps provide some emergency aid while in combat (stabilizing critical wounds until combat is over), while the doctor skill would be used strictly outside of combat for healing critical and potentially fatal wounds.

Although in Wasteland I remember always using the doctor skill since it basically overlapped and surpassed what the medic skill could do. Wasteland 2 should try to make both skills useful for their own purposes - even if there is some overlap.

[Azriel]

I just can't see it. Walk into enemy base, get shot, wait, heal, walk a few steps, get shot, wait, heal, walk another few steps, get shot, wait heal, walk another step, get shot *throws computer out window*.

Or worse, get shot, then go all the way back and find a doctor OR you can buy this very expensive rare heal kit that will last about 5 seconds until you get shot again AND it costs all your money to get. Just seems a very fast way to frustrate a lot of people.

[Yutty]

i wouldn't mind some sort of drug like the stimpack from fallout but it would heal slowly over time instead of instant. Using more than one while the first one is still healing would do nothing.

[paultakeda]

i wouldn't mind some sort of drug like the stimpack from fallout but it would heal slowly over time instead of instant. Using more than one while the first one is still healing would do nothing.

That's unrealistic, though. Healing takes time. Drugs could perhaps be used to increase the odds of survival if a character is sick. In the WL system, say a character is in SER condition. Either a medic or doctor skill could get them back to UNC.

Let's say in Wasteland 2 a character without that skill could use a medkit to stabilize them, the medkit having a medic skill of 1 and of course, like skill use it is not guaranteed to work and unlike the skill can only be used once.

Once a character is safe from death, healing hit points should just be a matter of waiting.

I see that as a good enhancement: items act as single use skill attempts, such as a medkit (medic 1) and a doctor's bag (medic 2, seriously a bag just has better stuff so it's not doctor 1).

[Drool]

Let's say in Wasteland 2 a character without that skill could use a medkit to stabilize them, the medkit having a medic skill of 1 and of course, like skill use it is not guaranteed to work and unlike the skill can only be used once.

That's actually a pretty cool idea.

[boldan28]

Just posted this on the google moderator board, and I haven't seen anyone mention it so far....

I would love for the game to have a realistic health and combat healing system. I think Jagged Alliance 2 did a great job of this. The idea is, in combat, you cannot instantly "heal" damage (with stimpacks, etc) to pump yourself up as if you had never been hit at all. Healing takes time, sometimes lots of time if you have heavy damage or an unskilled medic, or low medical supplies. In combat, all you can do medically is stop bleeding or revive unconscious characters. This may seem much more difficult but it can be made easier if allies don't die when they drop a certain amount below their HP, only become unconscious- that way they can be revived or healed after the battle, and the battle doesn't end unless every character becomes unconscious. This system leads to more tactical decision making during the battle and after the battle - do you spend the time to get everyone up to full health, or do you take your chances with party members at half-health to finish the mission in time?

Conceivably, a mix of the two systems could be used, but I've always loved the tactical complexities of a system like this. I loved fallout, but with the quick pockets perk (only 2 AP to access inventory) I would always be able to get back up to full health every turn, as if I'd never been hit. Not a very realistic approach, and in a way less fun because taking damage never actually stressed me out in any way. In JA2, every time a bullet was fired you'd be biting your nails, praying it didn't hit! One or two bullets could change the whole course of a battle. I would love for a tactical health and healing system of this style to make it into Wasteland 2.

Thanks!

[Zombra]

From the Weapon Wear and Damage thread:

In the original WL, instead of relying on stimpacks for quick healing, healing was a function of _time_ wherein the party essentially sat around waiting for wounded party members to heal. The fact that any members had Medic or Doctor Skills did NOT speed up the process at all. Maintenance and Repair for armor and weapons is essentially a "healing" process for gear. If WL2 once again avoids "healing potions" and stimpacks for healing (as I suspect will be the case), then the party will have a LOT of downtime to perform "healing" on their gear as well.

This brings up what I think is a very important point!

No healing potions, stimpacks, or anything similar, please!

Make injuries count! I loved that getting shot or bitten actually meant something long- or at least medium-term in Wasteland. Well, I didn't love it per se, but it made for very good gameplay. Even being knocked into SER condition was, well, serious; at least in the early game.

I do think that medical skills and proper (and expendable) supplies should help healing rate when the party is in downtime, but that's it. And harsh conditions should slow healing rate.

Of course it shouldn't turn into a snooze fest where the Rangers are spending weeks and months after every fight hitting the ESC key to make time pass. (Actually I hope there is a "rest for x hours" option.) Wandering encounters and dwindling food/water supplies should discourage people from just saying, OK, 3 weeks later, the team is in perfect health again. Make "healing time" another resource to be managed. And make "don't get shot" a priority in combats, rather than "make sure I'm carrying 50 doses of rainbow healing honey".

EDIT: thanks to the mod who merged this post with the old thread. Now I have something to read while killing time here at the office

[rakenan]

We're on the verge of pursuing challenge past the point where it's fun. I most emphatically do not want the frustration-fest of miserably slow healing compounded by hyper-deadly fights compounded by limited supplies to prevent long waits to heal. If we're not going to have instant in-combat healing - and I agree we should not - then healing outside of combat should not be made burdensome. Resting for 1 hour to heal completely in Fallout 3 was asinine. Taking a few days off in a reasonable climate/safe house to have your medics and doctors restore the party's health completely is fine. Forcing the player to hit escape 20000 times in order to *DO* that resting is, again, not fine.

Regardless, if healing out of combat is very slow compared to the pace of combat, combat *CANNOT* be particularly deadly. It's stupid from a game design perspective to enforce long tedious downtime after every combat just because healing is so slow. Realism is no excuse - we're in a game with self-aware computers, hand-held laser guns, power armor, and broken toasters filled with advanced gear. If that doesn't break realism's back, then adding medical equipment that can heal badly wounded teammates out of combat in a reasonable amount of time (compared to the many months realism would dictate) won't hurt anything. Even the lack of convenient healing in Wasteland 1 is not a compelling argument, although it certainly carries more weight than realism.

The game design paradigm of "You must do tedious, frustrating, or merely unenjoyable activities for X amount of time in order to be allowed to something fun for Y amount of time," where X is even as large as Y, much less larger, should have been thoroughly discredited by now. Downtime is not fun. It is tolerable, in extremely low doses, as a spice to the other activities in the game. Like other spices, it needs to be used with restraint, not poured on as the main ingredient of the dish.

[Equidistant]

We're on the verge of pursuing challenge past the point where it's fun. I most emphatically do not want the frustration-fest of miserably slow healing compounded by hyper-deadly fights compounded by limited supplies to prevent long waits to heal. If we're not going to have instant in-combat healing - and I agree we should not - then healing outside of combat should not be made burdensome. Resting for 1 hour to heal completely in Fallout 3 was asinine. Taking a few days off in a reasonable climate/safe house to have your medics and doctors restore the party's health completely is fine. Forcing the player to hit escape 20000 times in order to *DO* that resting is, again, not fine...
<snip>
The game design paradigm of "You must do tedious, frustrating, or merely unenjoyable activities for X amount of time in order to be allowed to something fun for Y amount of time," where X is even as large as Y, much less larger, should have been thoroughly discredited by now. Downtime is not fun. It is tolerable, in extremely low doses, as a spice to the other activities in the game. Like other spices, it needs to be used with restraint, not poured on as the main ingredient of the dish.

What he said. No instant in-combat healing = Good. Tedious out-of-combat healing = Bad. I like the idea of injuries being a medium-term challenge rather than a "how many potions are you carrying" issue, but the actual process of resolving them should be interesting. The tricky part should be stabilizing injured characters in combat and (maybe) getting them to a safe location for serious medical treatment. Once they're in a location where serious medical treatment is available, it should take very little player time for the healing to be done.

Also, if injuries have permanently bad effects that encourages save-loading, which is no fun. Any permanent effects of injuries should be able to be compensated somehow (drugs for lingering pain, mechanical limb for lost arm, etc).

[Lucius]

Here's what I posted in entirely unrelated thread that had charted off topic, which I think is a good compromise and solution to healing in combat, slow healing out of combat, and running around near unconscious constantly. Actually this might just be a repeat of something I said earlier in this thread a few weeks back.

I'm totally against any and all "instant healing" items. The only thing I could go for is a temporary instant heal, such as a drug like morphine, that heals you X hp then Y turns later your hp goes back down to it's original state or possibly worse than original state. There should be some way however to not run around on the verge of unconsciousness all the time, but however that is handled, it should be linked to medic skills. Possibly have medic skill with a medkit take several turns to heal HP above 0, thus making it less than ideal to do in combat. Outside of combat you could heal quickly this way, but instead of turns, time would pass and there would be risk of random encounters during the healing process.

[Drool]

What he said. No instant in-combat healing = Good. Tedious out-of-combat healing = Bad.

If it's just restoring HP, I don't see why a Fallout-style "rest until healed" mechanic couldn't be incorporated. Only healing via Escape or a doctor seems to largely have been a matter of space than an intentional design element.

[Sub-Human]

I'm against insta-healing objects, really. However, there should still be a compromise between that and immersion breaking 24 hour resting after every battle in a dungeon. It doesn't make sense that'd you be just standing around there, waiting for your hit points to come back to a sensible level, and then move on. It doesn't help with roleplaying, and it can get quite tedious too. Lol, yeah, I just spent a week fighting through two rooms in a dungeon. Combat took 5 minutes in-game. Go figure.

[tuluse]

It sounds like most people's problem is not with insta-healing, but unlimited insta-healing. If a stimpack in Fallout took all your AP to use, it wouldn't be an issue how many there are. This is basically what D&D does with potions (or healing spells).

Anyways, I don't really care if we have insta-healing items in combat as long as they're not unlimited, you can balance the difficulty either way. The JA2 system does sound pretty cool though. However, I don't want a tedious out of combat healing system. Lying in a hospital bed for weeks to heal from multiple gunshot wounds is not fun, and I don't care if it's realistic.

[paultakeda]

It sounds like most people's problem is not with insta-healing, but unlimited insta-healing.

No, I'm against it period.

It's really hard for a party to lose a guy with Wasteland's health system. Enhancing the medic/doctor skill through a skill modifier item in inventory is good.