Water, the under-utilized resource

[Hiver]

Quite a few things dont make sense to paultakeida.
But that seems more like his personal problem.

I do agree with the OP and his idea is perfectly well explained.

Every rare and "valuable" resource can be used as currency, and it probably would be used as such in post apoc time.
Money is worth - nothing.

It isnt even connected to gold anymore. It just an illusion now, a trick, a lie, virtual numbers that are simply invented by the banks.
All of that just disappears in the case of apocalypse.

Of course the team may decide to have some form of currency for simplicity reasons.


But i would prefer that actual trading with rare, survival essential and in that sense valuable goods take the place of "money".

Water, medicine, ammo...and other very important, very rare stuff essential for survival.

[paultakeda]

I do agree with the OP and his idea is perfectly well explained.

In the entire history of humanity, even during times of strife, water has never been money. It has been a valuable commodity with which to trade, but it is not money. As you say, money is worth nothing by itself; excepting money made of a substance worth exactly what it represents, such as a stamped precious metal coin with the value of its weight, and even this is not a trade good, it is a substance of perceived value with no practical use during its time as a money (and once gold did become a practical good in an industrial society, the coins went away). Water is not worth nothing by itself, it has an inherent value.

I am not confused about this distinct difference and it is not a personal problem, though I appreciate your "concern".

It isnt even connected to gold anymore. It just an illusion now, a trick, a lie, virtual numbers that are simply invented by the banks.
All of that just disappears in the case of apocalypse.

The value of money is in information and the representation of assets upon which it is now based, which while physically intangible is quite real, not an illusion. Certainly after the fall of a civilization that uses this standard that money can suddenly lose trust. In a new world, if there is a form of currency, it is backed by something. What that something is doesn't matter to me. Having a currency makes the game economy simpler than dealing with a barter system.

Water, medicine, ammo...and other very important, very rare stuff essential for survival.

And therefore remain commodities with which you can barter or purchase using an accepted form of currency. Using water as currency remains a dubious proposition.

[suz]

Wanna buy the nifty power armor? Better bring a very large canteen...

[DarkTwinkie]

We think the concept of using water as a resource is a great idea, especially given the zone and concept of the Wasteland. One core principle of the game is scavenging so making sure the team has what they need to travel is important. With a lack of proper water delivery systems in place, this could play a big role. Thanks for the ideas!

[Hiver]

We think the concept of using water as a resource is a great idea, especially given the zone and concept of the Wasteland. One core principle of the game is scavenging so making sure the team has what they need to travel is important. With a lack of proper water delivery systems in place, this could play a big role. Thanks for the ideas!

Very nice that you guys like the idea.

[paultakeda]

We think the concept of using water as a resource is a great idea, especially given the zone and concept of the Wasteland. One core principle of the game is scavenging so making sure the team has what they need to travel is important. With a lack of proper water delivery systems in place, this could play a big role. Thanks for the ideas!

Very nice that you guys like the idea.

As long as it's a valuable commodity and not money.

I can see where scarcity is an issue in, say, Death Valley. Unlike WL with the Colorado River going through it, the desert areas in California can be treacherous.

But you would also have to take into account areas such as Big Bear, where the resource is abundant.

[Valka]

A while back it had occurred to me that as the west coast will be at least part of the territory of this game that the coastal waters might also be included. Boating is an obvious area of interest, and I would be disappointed if there were not some combat potential in that arena.

As for the OP and subsequent discussion of water as resource, currency and so forth, I am in favor of seeing water as extremely important, and even as pivotal in some dramatic events, but I just want for the writers to be careful about getting stuck with the gravity of an obsession over one resource becoming a factor in every interaction in the game.

Even though plausible, it can easily become tiresome, and we've seen it happen in a lot of boring games and movies. Dennis Hopper might have taken a bit of the pain out of it, but he's dead!

[Lucius]

We think the concept of using water as a resource is a great idea, especially given the zone and concept of the Wasteland. One core principle of the game is scavenging so making sure the team has what they need to travel is important. With a lack of proper water delivery systems in place, this could play a big role. Thanks for the ideas!

Water as a resource is one thing. Even the original Wasteland required your rangers to carry canteens to pass through certain desert areas. Using it as a form of currency though doesn't make any sense, especially on a larger scale.

[Drool]

It isnt even connected to gold anymore.

It was in the original.

Now, what California uses might be up in the air, but I see no reason why the Vegas area wouldn't stick with the gold dollar standard they'd established.

[paultakeda]

It isnt even connected to gold anymore.

It was in the original.

Now, what California uses might be up in the air, but I see no reason why the Vegas area wouldn't stick with the gold dollar standard they'd established.

I keep forgetting WL1's $ is based on gold, probably because it's not essential to know that to play the game but rather just a nice bit of background. I really should remember that whenever a currency thread shows up.
But yeah, California may be on another standard (still not water).

[Hiver]

I wasnt talking about original but current reality.

Right now, and for some time, money is simply falsely created whenever banks need it.
It is not connected to any sort of resource at all. Its just fake. Its not even on paper.

More than 90 procent of money existing now is in virtual or digital form.

All debt people and business and states owe is several times higher than all money that exists.

Thus and therefore, the human race is officially a race of complete morons.

money you say?

[paultakeda]

I wasnt talking about original but current reality.

Right now, and for some time, money is simply falsely created whenever banks need it.
It is not connected to any sort of resource at all. Its just fake. Its not even on paper.

More than 90 procent of money existing now is in virtual or digital form.

All debt people and business and states owe is several times higher than all money that exists.

Thus and therefore, the human race is officially a race of complete morons.

money you say?

You seem to think money has to be physical. This is a false premise.

[Hiver]

You have no idea what im thinking, - and you obviously cannot read because i said what im thinking pretty clearly - right there.

I would prefer if you didnt try to strawman what i am saying. Or pose as some sort of my thoughts interpreter, because you fail horribly.

[Elandryl]

You have no idea what im thinking, - and you obviously cannot read because i said what im thinking pretty clearly - right there.

I would prefer if you didnt try to strawman what i am saying. Or pose as some sort of my thoughts interpreter, because you fail horribly.

I agree.

Ok, paultakeda, you don't like the idea of water used as money. We got it.
So, nothing can be radiactive 75 years after a nuclear war, and any moron can clean water with just a pot and a couple of silex to light a fire. Right. And money is a virtual trade concept where the whole country's wealth doesn't have to be physically materialized in the form of bills. Ok.

Could we please discuss about interesting gameplay issues now?

[suz]

Well, you can start by discussing the issue i posted earlier.

[paultakeda]

Could we please discuss about interesting gameplay issues now?

The OP's TLDR boils down the thread topic to water being used as money, so this is what I addressed. The use in-game of water and other similar constrained resources is already discussed elsewhere, so the discussion here would be about what?

[Woolfe]

I think we are all getting lost in the semantics.

My impression from the OP was like Paul's that he wanted to use water as the actual money.

Which is hard to do and not overly realistic IMO.

My comments on whether water is actually scarce or not aside, Water could be used as a barter commodity.

IE it is a Resource and if it is scarce, then it could be used as the basis for money. But using it as money, is just going to add a degree of complexity that could be easily resolved using a "currency" of some form.

In today's society finance is an arcane art that isn't backed by a specific commodity anymore. Thats fine, but in a post apocalyptic world, the law would be too fractured to back that concept up. So commodity of resources will be required to provide the basis of any currency.

So for sake of simplicity, I hope they have some form of "currency" with resources such as "Water", or "Gold" or "Oil" or whatever, being used to provide stable basis for that currency. (Whilst having the commodity destabilize and profiting/losing out to the financial craziness, would be interesting, its not exactly what I am playing the game for)

[blinko]

TL;DR- If they need water, they probably can't help you anyway, so please don't turn this into a mutant Oregon Trail trying to commodify it.

You wouldn't know what's valuable to any particular community until you explore it, so there's no reason to think your canteens would be worth anything to anyone outside of desert camps or that your guns would fetch much more than their scrap value. After all, you're a foreigner wherever you go in the wasteland, and no sensible person is going to remove something of value from their local economy to give to a roving stranger unless they like you, unless you have something unique or more valuable that they want, or they don't know what they have. Also, what sense does it make to think the survivors would be sitting around in the middle of vast deserts hoping for someone to bring them water instead of just colonizing areas around water sources? Seeing as we're able to water all our crops and livestock and still provide water to nearly 350 million people in the US today, it doesn't follow that a severely reduced population would be struggling to stay hydrated so much that a few pints would fetch vastly more than the effort it took to carry it around.

Now, I could understand teas, Flav-O drink flavorizer packets, instant mixes, or other non perishables fetching something, or something like ice, ice cream, or plans for refrigerators or ice-makers being valuable, or pre-apocalypse pictures and books like in A Canticle for Leibowitz. And I'd think most communities would have a sort of accountable generalized reciprocity system over a complicated capitalistic neo-mercantile market rigorously upheld by nothing more than two little old shop ladies, so if you gave a community one big thing that was of tremendous value to them, you could choose from a few big things to take with you and restocking the small stuff would just be a lagniappe. If you came across a place where water was valuable, they probably wouldn't have anything of value to give you in return, but if you gave them a book on building cisterns, artesian wells, or a map of local waterways and tributaries, then the next time you came across them you could benefit from what they had accomplished, or else find the books among the piles of their bones in the desert.

[suz]

TL;DR- If they need water, they probably can't help you anyway, so please don't turn this into a mutant Oregon Trail trying to commodify it.

...and more stuff

Pretty much it, water is a good commodity to trade to specific locations with plausible reason(drought, outpost cut off from supply etc) as to why they are located away from water sources, but having majority of population centers struggling for basic needs is kinda retarded.

If you need to escort a fleet of tankers full of water or carry 20 cubic meters of fresh water in your shirt pocket - to buy anything useful it'll break any plausibility water as money ever had.

[Ken]

Water just isn't portable enough to be a currency. It's too heavy for every day use. I can see stocking up on food and water before going out into a region as necessary, but it doesn't seem fun as a game mechanic. There is no upside. You either carry too much water and can't take as much loot, too little water and die, or just the right amount and celebrate your super efficient use of resources. Woohoo.

Acquiring fresh water would be a high priority when setting up a ranger base, and should be a deciding factor when selecting a base location, but otherwise I don't see it being fun.