Water, the under-utilized resource

[Wisteso]

Regarding Water
If you search the forum for "water", you might see it hand-waved at a few times in some odd threads. It's not really a big area of interest. I'm hoping that might change in the near future...

Water is...

• A resource that the human body cannot go without for more than three day (give or take).
• Hard to preserve without using a closed container.
• Difficult to completely clean, more-so in a radioactive world.
• Hard to verify as safe or unsafe.
• Routed through fragile pipe systems in an industrial/post-industrial society. Those systems would not survive a nuclear war.
• Attainable by any group which can drill a deep hole and build a structure to harvest it. In the post apoc world, this means that only the most well-off towns/cities will have it. Though it may still not be clean.
• In the wasteland, EVERYONE needs water. Even hermits.

I've been playing New Vegas in hardcore mode and it really got me thinking about the (lack of) use of water in modern games based in arid environments.

If used as money, it could provide a very interesting dynamic. Players will want to stay out of the desert sun to avoid eating away at their source of income. It's hard to motivate the player to respect the threat of the sun in the wasteland otherwise.

Regarding use of "money"
Why is "money" still being used in post-apoc games? Any form of money which does not have intrinsic value (gold, diamonds, water, etc) requires a form of trust from those that use it. The idea behind a dollar used to be that it was a IOU for gold. You could literally go and trade it in for whatever gold that dollar was worth. Over time, trust was established for the banks and we began to forget that the dollar itself was worthless without the assets to back it. In post-apoc world, that trust would be near impossible to create. The only society in the Fallout world which could create money might be the NCR - in Wasteland world, I'm not sure who could, if anyone.

Consistency of cost
In the real world, most goods cost roughly the same for a country. All bets are off when you go to a different country. Although sometimes prices differ from state to state for some goods, or even city to city. This is driven by the globalization of the modern world. Increased competition has forced consistent pricing across entire countries... Such fairness does not exist in the wasteland. The issue is that money implies some consistency; water does not.

TL;DR
So my question/assertion is, why did Fallout/Wasteland even bother with caps/money instead of using water? What will/should Wasteland 2 do? Why/why not?

[krellen]

[*]Difficult to completely clean, more-so in a radioactive world.
[*]Hard to verify as safe or unsafe.

Completely untrue.

[Lucius]

Water is infinitely plentiful thus not a very good form of currency. If you can boil it, it is most likely safe for consumption. If you are poor, just wait for rain. In a post apoc situation, if water supplies became irradiated it would destroy the local populace. No life would survive. No surviving life=no videogame. (Or a really dumb one where you roleplay a rock and all you can do is stare at a barren landscape.)

[Wisteso]

[*]Difficult to completely clean, more-so in a radioactive world.
[*]Hard to verify as safe or unsafe.

Completely untrue.

Yeah, I've heard that running water through soil does a pretty good job of purifying it. By "hard" I mean you can't just find some radioactive water and MacGuyver a filter without some somewhat uncommon parts/tools.

Water is infinitely plentiful thus not a very good form of currency. If you can boil it, it is most likely safe for consumption. If you are poor, just wait for rain. In a post apoc situation, if water supplies became irradiated it would destroy the local populace. No life would survive. No surviving life=no videogame. (Or a really dumb one where you roleplay a rock and all you can do is stare at a barren landscape.)

Water is nearly infinite, but I'm not talking about any water. I'm talking about drinkable water.
How are you going to boil water in the wasteland? Electricity is scarce, let alone a functioning stove.
How often does it rain in the wasteland? Not often. Even when it does, you need a lot of containers to hold enough water to even last you for a few weeks. The average individual consumes 2-3 liters of water a day, and that's in a normal pre-apoc society, not the hot/dry wasteland.

I'm not sure what you mean by "if water supplies became irradiated". The idea is that they already are, and water can be purified, but the process of getting clean water is usually fairly difficult.

[Wisteso]

Also, anyone interested in growing food is going to need water. Salt water may be fine for crops, but that doesn't help anyone not living on the coast. The raising of livestock requires clean water as well.

We haven't even had a war which has ruined our environment and yet we're having these problems in the middle east. (see links)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/ ... YZ20110921
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-5008643.html
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2010 ... 14-01.html

It's hard for anyone that lives in an advanced society to see, but water is actually a bigger deal than you think. Why do you think irrigation systems were such an issue for older societies?

[Elandryl]

Your idea of using water as money is actually pretty good.

Even if few people seems to know it, in a near future (I'm talking about less thant a century), water is gonna be a huge problem in different parts of the world. It already is, and not just in the third world. You need water for your everyday life, for agriculture, for medicine, for cooling system (=energy), to survive... In a world where finding clean water could be a mission in itself (it could litteraly be the major strategic ressource in the wasteland), using it as a money would only be logical. And would also offer a great dilemna ("Each time I cross the wasteland, I'm actually drinking my money!")

So yeah, definitely something to think about.

And boy could it be used in a cleverer way that in Fallout 3, where clean water was supposed to be a major ressource in the area, but you never had any problem finding water or getting rid of radiation for the whole game.

[Imbunche]

Fallout did it.

[Lucius]

Water is nearly infinite, but I'm not talking about any water. I'm talking about drinkable water.
How are you going to boil water in the wasteland? Electricity is scarce, let alone a functioning stove.
How often does it rain in the wasteland? Not often. Even when it does, you need a lot of containers to hold enough water to even last you for a few weeks. The average individual consumes 2-3 liters of water a day, and that's in a normal pre-apoc society, not the hot/dry wasteland.

You don't need electricity or a stove to boil water. People do it camping in the wilderness all the time. As far as "how often does it rain? Not often." Source please. If we are talking specifically the area of Wasteland and lack of rain due to desert conditions. Well there is a giant river running through it, the Colorado river. It is safe to drink (ie it's not radiated) from this river because if it wasn't safe to drink from see below....

I'm not sure what you mean by "if water supplies became irradiated". The idea is that they already are, and water can be purified, but the process of getting clean water is usually fairly difficult.

I expanded the original statement below. Everything in brackets added for your clarification. Having dangerously radioactive water supplies ends all life in the area. There is NO surviving in that case.

If water supplies became irradiated [to the point where it is very difficult to acquire clean water after the nuclear exchange which caused the apocalypse] it would destroy the local populace. No life would survive. [No plants, no animals, no humans.] No surviving life=no videogame. (Or a really dumb one where you roleplay a rock and all you can do is stare at a barren landscape.)

[Woolfe]

Something to be aware of.

The game is set 70+ years after the initial nuclear war.

So something like 3 generations have already passed. Most people should now know how to collect water in a day to day situation as a simple matter of survival.

The Wasteland is not as much of a wasteland as you might think.

We aren't talking about Fallout level dead and brown. There is lots of greenery and life in the Wasteland. Some of it mutated and wild, but definately alive.

So whilst Water is important, and these issues are real issues, the majority of the populace who are currently alive have had to deal with this issue their entire life and therefore have created ways to deal with it. This may be as simple as having a town well, and boiling the water, or as complex as having indepth survival skills.

Also bear in mind with 90% of the population gone, a lot of the industry and agriculture and people that used up a lot of the water has now gone as well. Thus rivers and waterways etc would be much healthier after 70 years than they would be prior to the Nuclear war.

[TNZ]

Water would just not work as a form of currency. For starters, how would someone without the means to detect radiation know that the water being offered is safe? You would also need to worry about rampant inflation every time it rained, and it does rain in the desert from time to time.

Anyway, I don't really want to explore a world in which everyone is terrified of taking a bath, on the off chance that the plug might come out and they would lose their life savings. Not only would that world smell terrible, but life expectancy would drop by at least 20 years.

[Drool]

While water can be contaminated by radiation, it doesn't tend to stay that way without a continuing source of contamination (which was one of the major unsung problems of Fallout 3). Using Chernobyl as an example, the surrounding waterways were highly contaminated immediately after the event, but were generally considered safe a few months later. Fish continued to be toxic, but the water itself was (more or less) fine. Considering Wasteland is set some 70 years after the exchange, it would be safe to assume that any major rivers or lakes would be fine. Again, unless there was something inside the water continuing the contamination or leaking. At this point, some iodine drops should suffice to render most any water drinkable.

Add in the fact that Wasteland isn't a bleak world like Fallout is, water should be able to be safely assumed to be managed outside of desert or highly contaminated areas. Now, Wasteland 2 probably won't have the map bisected by an enormous river, but I would assume that water's pretty well under control.

[Wisteso]

You don't need electricity or a stove to boil water. People do it camping in the wilderness all the time. As far as "how often does it rain? Not often." Source please. If we are talking specifically the area of Wasteland and lack of rain due to desert conditions. Well there is a giant river running through it, the Colorado river. It is safe to drink (ie it's not radiated) from this river because if it wasn't safe to drink from see below....

See the links I posted about the scarcity of water in arid regions. Those areas aren't even really considered wastelands.

The game is set 70+ years after the initial nuclear war.

So something like 3 generations have already passed. Most people should now know how to collect water in a day to day situation as a simple matter of survival.

Valid point, but understanding the process does not make it cheap/easy.

The Wasteland is not as much of a wasteland as you might think.

We aren't talking about Fallout level dead and brown. There is lots of greenery and life in the Wasteland. Some of it mutated and wild, but definately alive.

Also valid, but there's always non-radioactive contamination (human/animal waste, garbage, parasites, etc)

So whilst Water is important, and these issues are real issues, the majority of the populace who are currently alive have had to deal with this issue their entire life and therefore have created ways to deal with it. This may be as simple as having a town well, and boiling the water, or as complex as having indepth survival skills.

Also bear in mind with 90% of the population gone, a lot of the industry and agriculture and people that used up a lot of the water has now gone as well. Thus rivers and waterways etc would be much healthier after 70 years than they would be prior to the Nuclear war.

Good points, but consider protection. 70 years later, people are still robbing/killing/etc. We've found ways to deal with it (communities, weapons, walls, etc) but that doesn't make the means to those ways free/cheap. I would argue that water, like weapons/shelter, is easy to find, but often a bit of a tax on your resources to acquire. It's also portable, which makes it a good source of currency.

[Wisteso]

Water would just not work as a form of currency. For starters, how would someone without the means to detect radiation know that the water being offered is safe? You would also need to worry about rampant inflation every time it rained, and it does rain in the desert from time to time.

Anyway, I don't really want to explore a world in which everyone is terrified of taking a bath, on the off chance that the plug might come out and they would lose their life savings. Not only would that world smell terrible, but life expectancy would drop by at least 20 years.

I imagine you couldn't know it was safe. This would make water more valuable when it came from trusted sources. (Not all water is equal). The other thing is that baths can be done with dirty water. Dirty in the sense of not being the cleanest. Although I dont think wastelanders bathe more than a few times a year? Inflation is definitely a concern, but that's nothing new. Crops have to deal with inflation during certain seasons as well.

While water can be contaminated by radiation, it doesn't tend to stay that way without a continuing source of contamination (which was one of the major unsung problems of Fallout 3). Using Chernobyl as an example, the surrounding waterways were highly contaminated immediately after the event, but were generally considered safe a few months later. Fish continued to be toxic, but the water itself was (more or less) fine. Considering Wasteland is set some 70 years after the exchange, it would be safe to assume that any major rivers or lakes would be fine. Again, unless there was something inside the water continuing the contamination or leaking. At this point, some iodine drops should suffice to render most any water drinkable.

You're probably right, but as I mentioned, there's other contaminants besides radiation. My angle is "look at Iraq and then imagine another 100 years of climate change and then a nuclear war - safe water would probably be very scarce", though you're right that it may only be scarce in some areas. Nevertheless, in the wasteland I think it would be (scarce).

[kira]

How are you going to boil water in the wasteland? Electricity is scarce, let alone a functioning stove.
How often does it rain in the wasteland? Not often.

Sounds like someone lives in the city and has never been camping. Have you ever heard of mini propane stoves? How about a campfire? Or old/makeshift wood stoves. You can also consume dirty water by giving yourself an enema with it(except holding the water in). You can also boil salt water and catch the steam with a secondary container to purify salt water.

Citydwellers always expect people to go back to sticks and stones if society falls.

[Wisteso]

How are you going to boil water in the wasteland? Electricity is scarce, let alone a functioning stove.
How often does it rain in the wasteland? Not often.

Sounds like someone lives in the city and has never been camping. Have you ever heard of mini propane stoves? How about a campfire? Or old/makeshift wood stoves. You can also consume dirty water by giving yourself an enema with it(except holding the water in). You can also boil salt water and catch the steam with a secondary container to purify salt water.

Citydwellers always expect people to go back to sticks and stones if society falls.

I just chose not to go down that topic of conversation.

The enema thing kinda makes sense. I'll have to look that up later. As for propane, I would not expect any to be left 70 years post-apoc, much like gasoline. Having done plenty of camping, since I am not a city dweller (why did you assume that anyway), I know that starting a campfire isn't actually that easy, though it's not hard either.

My point was never that water is impossible to purify or find pure. The argument that clean water is difficult to create. By difficult, I mean that "hard enough that you'd often (not always) rather trade for clean water than purify it yourself". Though in other areas, water will be impossible to find/purify and will be the most valuable resource. I imagine in other areas, it will be fairly common and un-valuable.

Ammunition is also hard but not impossible to create, and you often see it used as currency for bartering. My argument is that water would also be a good currency, much like other hard-but-not-impossible-to-get resources.

It's also a resource that everyone needs, rather than a fraction of people.

Though maybe I'm crazy and a bunch of gamers have somehow figured out how to solve the water crisis going on in the middle east. Who knew that they just needed to boil the water with some flint and tinder.

[Woolfe]

How are you going to boil water in the wasteland? Electricity is scarce, let alone a functioning stove.
How often does it rain in the wasteland? Not often.

Sounds like someone lives in the city and has never been camping. Have you ever heard of mini propane stoves? How about a campfire? Or old/makeshift wood stoves. You can also consume dirty water by giving yourself an enema with it(except holding the water in). You can also boil salt water and catch the steam with a secondary container to purify salt water.

Citydwellers always expect people to go back to sticks and stones if society falls.

Modified quote for correct person... Personally I know how to build a campfire and boil water, or even just dig a hole put a container in the bottom, with a bit of plastic across the top with a stone in the centre. Condensation collects during the night and drips into the container. Or... Or.. Or.. Or... plenty of ways to collect clean water if you think about it.

I wasn't however, aware of the enema thing... but you learn something new every day.

[Woolfe]

<SNIP>

See the links I posted about the scarcity of water in arid regions. Those areas aren't even really considered wastelands.

Which is where the Survival skill type concept comes into play.

The Wasteland is not as much of a wasteland as you might think.

We aren't talking about Fallout level dead and brown. There is lots of greenery and life in the Wasteland. Some of it mutated and wild, but definately alive.

Also valid, but there's always non-radioactive contamination (human/animal waste, garbage, parasites, etc)

Again, if they haven't worked it out after 3 generations, they are either dead or have adapted to survive.

So whilst Water is important, and these issues are real issues, the majority of the populace who are currently alive have had to deal with this issue their entire life and therefore have created ways to deal with it. This may be as simple as having a town well, and boiling the water, or as complex as having indepth survival skills.

Also bear in mind with 90% of the population gone, a lot of the industry and agriculture and people that used up a lot of the water has now gone as well. Thus rivers and waterways etc would be much healthier after 70 years than they would be prior to the Nuclear war.

Valid point, but understanding the process does not make it cheap/easy

Good points, but consider protection. 70 years later, people are still robbing/killing/etc. We've found ways to deal with it (communities, weapons, walls, etc) but that doesn't make the means to those ways free/cheap. I would argue that water, like weapons/shelter, is easy to find, but often a bit of a tax on your resources to acquire. It's also portable, which makes it a good source of currency.

So? It has to be easy enough otherwise the people would have left/died out. Also the Wasteland world in the original was a world recovering, not in the throws of apocalypse. Stability and growth requires that basic resources are available, even plentiful, otherwise your society collapses. Something like having to defend the water source is going to hold you back, and I imagine that this sort of thing would be affecting some communities. But it would be a pretty boring game if the only things to do were wipe out the Bandits/robbers/monsters that were preventing a town from growing.

I think you are overstating the importance in this setting. If water is common enough that someone with basic survival skills can produce it in enough quantity to survive, it is no longer a scarce resource. And to have been able to survive for 3 generations, people are going to have these skills to some degree.

[kira]

I wasn't however, aware of the enema thing... but you learn something new every day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtIG4TuVnvg

There's Bear Grylls doing it and he even tells the story of a family that did it and survived 38 days at sea due to the enema.

[Mandemon]

Just to mention about "water as currency" and "why would people in Wasteland use cash" or whatever.

Fallout 1 did this. Water Merchants said that certain amount of caps got you certain amount of drinkable water. So bottle caps became currency, because they were backed by something that had value: drinkable water.

[paultakeda]

So my question/assertion is, why did Fallout/Wasteland even bother with caps/money instead of using water? What will/should Wasteland 2 do? Why/why not?

Because Wasteland uses $. What is $? It doesn't matter. It is not essential to the game to understand the economics of $. It doesn't even mean what you think it means, it is simply a representation of a currency that is used to drive the game's simple economy. This is not a trading game. It's fun to think about, but in the end, is irrelevant as an in-game mechanic except as a representation of cash used for trade.

As for the concept of water as money, that makes no sense. It is a good. A currency could be based on water, but that's a bad currency.

Water is...
A resource that the human body cannot go without for more than three day (give or take).

You have now introduced the possibility of killing someone to extract their water. You also will never pee into anything but a bottle for the rest of your natural life. The market on purifying urine is sky high. That it is as an essential fluid to live means it's a bad form of money.

Hard to preserve without using a closed container.

Nothing that is easily lost is a good standard for money.

Difficult to completely clean, more-so in a radioactive world.

The world isn't radioactive, only certain spots. The nuclear winter came and went 70+ years ago. Whatever radiation remains is low-level and humanity that survived to the 3rd/4th generation is adapted to it.

Hard to verify as safe or unsafe.

?

Routed through fragile pipe systems in an industrial/post-industrial society. Those systems would not survive a nuclear war.

Systems no longer essential with the lower population level of a post-nuclear society that is just beginning to recover. They're going to build new pipes later.

Attainable by any group which can drill a deep hole and build a structure to harvest it. In the post apoc world, this means that only the most well-off towns/cities will have it. Though it may still not be clean.

It may be scarce in certain areas too far from a mountain to be easily accessed, but this means you will probably trade for water or dig for it, both requiring that you spend money or trade another good to obtain water or the goods and services to get it yourself. Neither make water a money.

In the wasteland, EVERYONE needs water. Even hermits.

A guy sitting in a cafe in New York also needs water. It's still not money.