Political correctness, politics and women (occassionally)

[Mandemon]

And so called "democratic" countries setting up puppets states is better... how? Was Cuba better with Batista? How many democratic nations have US replaced with right-wing dictatorships?

We can go around this as much as we want, but you are attacking specific parts instead of entire arguments. There is no perfect system because we humans are imperfect. Your examples, they are exactly what I called "self-serving men using popular ideology as a smoke screen".

Have you ever read communist manifesto? It calls for equality of all, democracy and fair share of income for all.

I am not saying communism is the best way, personally I am democratic socialist, but my point stands. There has never been a communist state that fulfilled all the ideas of original manifesto. We have had Stalinist, Maoist and other such states. But not communist.

[Wanderer]

The problem with social "group" threads is that the discussion usually leads into two opposite points of view and people start fighting over their personal opinions that have nothing to do with the game. Sometimes it's easy to forget that this is a gaming forum. But honestly, why do you give a shit whether some in-game characters (or communities) are hetero or homo, capitalist or communist, male or female etc., as long as they are well written, believable and their personality contributes to the overall storytelling?
Game design is a priority, not somebody's opinion whether something is politicaly correct or not. Or whatever you want to call it.

[Oktobermensch]

Gotta back Wanderer here. Guys, drop the political discussion and stick to the game. Having a plethora of characters with different ideological views is gonna be ineteresting either way, no point in arguing about whether Communism works or not. This game won't include that discussion.

[pomor]

And so called "democratic" countries setting up puppets states is better... how? Was Cuba better with Batista? How many democratic nations have US replaced with right-wing dictatorships?

I have seen communism. Now I live in capitalism. Capitalism is better, trust me. There are no free lunches, sure, but there is a possibility to make your life better. In communism, to even try to get a better life would be a crime against The People.

Have you ever read communist manifesto?

Man, I had to lern it by heart, to recite it from memory at school. I had to write essays, about how great it is. Maybe thats why I hate it so much.

It calls for equality of all, democracy and fair share of income for all.

People are not equal, thats the main problem. If you are forced to be equal with every moron out there, there is no reason to strive.
Sure, it can look nice, in theory.
Communism and Political Correctness do have this in common. They want to change the society along some naive, artificial ideas. To force these ideas on unbelievers, no matter what.

Having a plethora of characters with different ideological views is gonna be ineteresting either way

Agreed. Just dont decide that Politically Correct characters are Good, and un-PC are Evil.

[Tagaziel]

People are not equal, thats the main problem. If you are forced to be equal with every moron out there, there is no reason to strive.
Sure, it can look nice, in theory.
Communism and Political Correctness do have this in common. They want to change the society along some naive, artificial ideas. To force these ideas on unbelievers, no matter what.

That's bullshit. Any modern society is founded on the basis of liberty, equality and brotherhood. People should be given equal means to succeed and be equal before the law. And society should be changed for the better, by promoting equality, eradicating prejudice and changing individual mentality.

And I knew you'd pull the "you don't know communism" fallacy out and waggle it around. The fact that I wasn't around to experience the worst communism has to offer (and unless you were born in the 1900s and had to suffer under Lenin and Stalin, you don't know the worst either) actually puts me in a better, less biased position to assess the advantages and disadvantages of the system. And if you lived in Poland, rather than the USSR, you are even less entitled to speak about what communism has to offer.

That said, no state that has defined itself as communist actually implemented the principles of communism. If you had any idea at all what that ideology entails or what Marx/Engels wrote, you'd know that the "communism" of the Soviet bloc was actually the transitionary period, the dictature of the proletaryat, which was supposed to be a stepping stone on the way to implementing actual communism. However, the revolutionaries liked the taste of power so much, that they refused to make another step.

That's ignoring the fact that Russia was ill suited for a communist revolution, which was supposed to take place in highly industrialized countries with a large workerbase, not an underdeveloped Tsarist land.

[pomor]

Communism and Political Correctness do have this in common. They want to change the society along some naive, artificial ideas. To force these ideas on unbelievers, no matter what.

That's bullshit. Any modern society is founded on the basis of liberty, equality and brotherhood. People should be given equal means to succeed and be equal before the law. And society should be changed for the better, by promoting equality, eradicating prejudice and changing individual mentality.

People are not equal, nor will they be. Think back, when growing up, there was always some kid more athletic than you, and the one smarter than you, or more artistic or better looking or more talented. Everything that you happen to be good at, you could find another kid who was better at it. Fear not, everyone has these experiences.
Any two randomly selected people are not physically equal.  Some like to think that if a guy is physically superior to the next person, then said person is intellectually superior. That does not necessarily happen.
Think of the wealth and possessions.  People are not born into equal levels of wealth and status. Nor they will have (or develop) equal abilities in acquiring wealth and status.  People are not be faced with equal opportunity.
People are different, people have different physical capabilities, mental capabilities, beliefs, wealth, upbringings,opportunities, educations, race, families, environments etc, etc. As a result, we are not equal to each other.
The more so, people will never be equal, for the same reasons that they are not equal. Because of this, life is not fair. Life is not supposed to be fair.That is the sad nature of life.

That said, no state that has defined itself as communist actually implemented the principles of communism.

And why is that? So many nations have tried. If it is that great a thing, why not even single one succeeded? Let me guess... it is impossible maybe? And by giving communism another and another chance, we condemn more and more people.

That's ignoring the fact that Russia was ill suited for a communist revolution, which was supposed to take place in highly industrialized countries with a large workerbase, not an underdeveloped Tsarist land.

And what about all the others coutries, that have been trying this nonsence? Czechia(Bohemia), for example, before communism destroyed them, was one of the most developed European nations.

[newyawk]

I think anything political in a wasteland setting deals with guns, threats, power and life or death. I dont see how anyone can see the wasteland as a leftist utopian community where everyone is equal and sing koomby-ya my lord around radioactive campfires. The way of the gun, the fist and kill or be killed would seem to be the gist of it. I wont even cite examples from recent history where the thin viel (so thin it only has 1 side) of civilized life was pierced by a catastrophe and the insanity that ensued. In the short term, good people will always try to do the right thing but for anything of length, the rules will surely change quick if you want to survive.

It is the sad truth that all are not created equal. The best story about "forced" equality is Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. One of my favorite stories and the film adaptations weren't horrible. I agree that all have good and bad qualities (some more than others) but to think everyone is equal or entitled to some equal chance... it is idealist thinking that isnt to pragmatic. Im not saying women should be discriminated against, they make excellent snipers but are not commonly able to hold up to the physical strength of men in hand to hand combat. They can have the equal opportunity to fight a man, but generally one solid punch is all it takes for 90% of women (I know because I try to knock one out every week)

How do we bring this back to the game?

[Mandemon]

We are not bringing this to game.

This discussion started from insane idea that "political correctness" is somehow automatically bad and is a method to bring fascist/communist/something dystopia and it threatens free world.

[ravenshrike]

And so called "democratic" countries setting up puppets states is better... how? Was Cuba better with Batista? How many democratic nations have US replaced with right-wing dictatorships?

For the average person, far better. For someone who got on Batista or his cronies' bad side, they fared remarkably similar to Castro's enemies. Which is to say badly.

[Mandemon]

Right, then we have nothing to talk. Arguing with you is clearly less productive that convincing a roof that it's a wall. I'm out of here.

[ravenshrike]

Right, then we have nothing to talk. Arguing with you is clearly less productive that convincing a roof that it's a wall. I'm out of here.

You're the one claiming they're better off. I would really like to see some statistics that come from a source other than a State organ or pulled out of someone's ass as to that reality however. Oh wait, there AREN'T any because the Cuban State controls all media and imprisons those who say otherwise.

[Mandemon]

Right, then we have nothing to talk. Arguing with you is clearly less productive that convincing a roof that it's a wall. I'm out of here.

You're the one claiming they're better off. I would really like to see some statistics that come from a source other than a State organ or pulled out of someone's ass as to that reality however. Oh wait, there AREN'T any because the Cuban State controls all media and imprisons those who say otherwise.

Cuba also has better literacy rate(99.9 vs 99.0), smaller Infant mortality(6.95 vs 7.07) and higher life expentancy(78.3 vs 78.2) than promised land of Capitalism, USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... eracy_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_death_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

Or are you going to claim that Cuba leftist movement has somehow subverted Wikipedia and that Wikipedia lies?

Saying Cuba is some sort of hellhole is outright lie. I am not saying communism is somehow best thing ever, what I am saying that your attacks are baseless and biased.

[Tagaziel]

People are not equal, nor will they be. Think back, when growing up, there was always some kid more athletic than you, and the one smarter than you, or more artistic or better looking or more talented. Everything that you happen to be good at, you could find another kid who was better at it. Fear not, everyone has these experiences.
Any two randomly selected people are not physically equal.  Some like to think that if a guy is physically superior to the next person, then said person is intellectually superior. That does not necessarily happen.
Think of the wealth and possessions.  People are not born into equal levels of wealth and status. Nor they will have (or develop) equal abilities in acquiring wealth and status.  People are not be faced with equal opportunity.
People are different, people have different physical capabilities, mental capabilities, beliefs, wealth, upbringings,opportunities, educations, race, families, environments etc, etc. As a result, we are not equal to each other.
The more so, people will never be equal, for the same reasons that they are not equal. Because of this, life is not fair. Life is not supposed to be fair.That is the sad nature of life.

Which, again, is stone age bullshit. Your approach belongs in the 19th century, not the 21st. The modern society aims to give everyone equal chances and make them as equal in regards to law as possible. Success should depend on the amount of work one puts into it and the correct realization of his potential, not completely random factors like being born into a rich/poor family or living in a developed/underdevolped area. As such, the modern society strives to provide equal opportunities for everyone and does its best to ensure that everyone, beggar or richman, is equal in the face of the law.

Is it perfect? No, of course not, humans are humans. But it's way better than the stone age "homo homini lupus" morality you're preaching.

And why is that? So many nations have tried. If it is that great a thing, why not even single one succeeded? Let me guess... it is impossible maybe? And by giving communism another and another chance, we condemn more and more people.

How can one succeed at implementing something, if they didn't even try to implement it? The logic of your argument is baffling.

And what about all the others coutries, that have been trying this nonsence? Czechia(Bohemia), for example, before communism destroyed them, was one of the most developed European nations.

Totally. World War II and German occupation was, like, the best thing ever to happen to the Czechs (and Slavs in general).

[Mandemon]

You know, this thread title says it has occasionally in it, so here are tits.

[ravenshrike]

Right, then we have nothing to talk. Arguing with you is clearly less productive that convincing a roof that it's a wall. I'm out of here.

You're the one claiming they're better off. I would really like to see some statistics that come from a source other than a State organ or pulled out of someone's ass as to that reality however. Oh wait, there AREN'T any because the Cuban State controls all media and imprisons those who say otherwise.

Cuba also has better literacy rate(99.9 vs 99.0), smaller Infant mortality(6.95 vs 7.07) and higher life expentancy(78.3 vs 78.2) than promised land of Capitalism, USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... eracy_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_death_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

Or are you going to claim that Cuba leftist movement has somehow subverted Wikipedia and that Wikipedia lies?

Saying Cuba is some sort of hellhole is outright lie. I am not saying communism is somehow best thing ever, what I am saying that your attacks are baseless and biased.

*blinks* You do realize that wiki is sourced by other people. Looking into your nice links there, the Lit rate(I would like to point out that I never claimed the current pub school system in the US was spectacular. In point of fact it's utter shite. Of course, all the popular educational methods used in public schools are those pushed by American[I fully realize the education idiocy common to the American left is not common outside the US] leftist idiots) was gotten from the UNESCO survey that was literally a Yes/No survey and was both distributed and collected by the Cuban State, and then given back to UNESCO. It certainly wasn't anything as involved as their new LAMP program.

Getting into a discussion on infant mortality would take WAY too fucking long(Among other things, one must commonly define infant mortality, the US assumes that if it takes a single breath outside the womb it's an infant while the VAST majority of other countries do not), but all those statistics are also reported by the Cuban State. Thus making them rather invalid.

As for life expectancy, that's even more complex, as you have to take into account things like murder and accident rates(if people regularly do more dangerous shit like jump out of planes then more die, not to mention things like miles driven in a car etc.. etc..), population specific diseases(sickle cell anemia, not a problem for the japanese), and a host of other issues. More germane to the discussion, ALSO only reported by the cuban state and thus invalid per my criteria. I applaud your effort though.

[Mandemon]

Forget it. Any source given to you, unless published by American government who is already opposed to Cuban government, is going to be regarded as "irrelevant" isn't it?

Let's drop this look some more tits, shall we?

[ravenshrike]

Forget it. Any source given to you, unless published by American government who is already opposed to Cuban government, is going to be regarded as "irrelevant" isn't it?

Every one of your sources was the Cuban govt. That's where the chain of evidence leads. Whereas, assuming you pay for them to get the info since they're not going to round it up for free, you can get the pure numbers on things like mortality statistics DIRECTLY from most US hospitals, especially if it's a public hospital.

[Wanderer]

You know, this thread title says it has occasionally in it, so here are tits.

Good one