Some looks back at contemporary propaganda

[Zigmar]

That's just an example, what I like about conspiracy theories, they are very easy to invent and still sounds exactly like the ones some people actually believe in, despite all the logic flaws in their reasoning

Ziggy Marley, I heard a great quote recently -- "We're not the conspiracy theorists on this particular issue... It seems to me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four commercial airliners and hitting 75% of their targets, that feels like a conspiracy theory. It raises a lot of questions."
Guess who said this? Charlie Sheen (before his public scandal blew up).

I really believe that real-world politics discussion have no place on this forum. And there is even no point in discussing any of actual conspiracy, the xkcd summed it up perfectly already: http://xkcd.com/258/

[funkadelik]

In Wasteland 2, we could also have an elite network of Hipsters that communicate with their worn Ipads and burn things with their thick hipster sunglasses. It will be pointless to try and rob them, because all of their money was locked up in their parent's bank account.

[Grim Monk]

Grim Monk -- Will Wasteland 2 be referring to that 1980's world as well, or can it be more updated? Will it def be on that same tangent? Thanks for that point (and the smileys).

Have you watched the intro?
It will give you in-depth info of the settings back-story.
It's also the start of a very good Lets Play of the original game.

Also:
Wasteland 1 came out in 1988 and hasn't been in print for ages due to a Copyright Tangle...
So if you want to get hold of a copy to play, it might sadly prove be difficult.

Regarding your question:
Yes the developers have referenced the original game's story so I think the setting will be the same.

PS. I really like the 7th entry on your blog "Fav Linkz" list...

[Tagaziel]

It's not stupid to address what brings the apocalypse.

What brought the apocalypse was established 24 years ago. The US launched the Citadel Superstation which many claimed to be nothing more than an orbital weapons platform. While everyone was yelling at each other about it, all communications satellites "went dark", effectively leaving everyone blind. Each side, assuming the blackout was the action of the other side, launched the vast majority of their nuclear arsenals. The resulting nuclear devastation is the apocalypse. Skip ahead about 70 years from that point and you have the setting of the first game. Skip ahead another 8 months to a year (most likely) and you have the second game.

This is what the manual gives, but it's largely inconsistent with the game. There are plenty of references to an invasion (likely the Sino-Russian invasion of the American West), as well as leftover Soviet weapons, the ability to choose a Russian and Chinese nationality etc. For the purposes of the NMA Let's Play, I compiled what I believe is a more accurate background:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXIvDLk1sJ0

Relations between the United States and the Soviet Union gradually deteriorated over the years. While the US involvement in the Drug Wars (1987-1993) and the expansion of NATO to include African states contributed to the process, the real problem was the Citadel. The Citadel was an ambitious American project, intended to build a full-fledged space station in Earth's orbit. The Soviet Union claims that this installation was merely a disguised military launching platform alarmed non-aligned countries, leading to a diplomatic crisis. As no solution could be reached, negotiations broke down and the Soviet Union declared war upon the United States and her allies. The conflict polarized the world. The United States were joined by NATO and puppet right wing governments set up during the Drug Wars, forcing the remaining countries worldwide to join the Soviets. In six short weeks only Switzerland, Sweden and Ireland continued to declare themselves neutral nations.

The war escalated very fast. The United States were engaged on multiple fronts, stretching their forces thin. The weakened state of the American military was used by the Soviet Union and China to launch a surprise attack on American soil, invading the southwest. Overwhelmed by the invasion, American forces had to fall back, surrendering the coastal states to the enemy armies. However, the combined Russo-Chinese military was unable to effectively wipe out the American forces, which soon struck back, bolstered by reinforcements coming in from the east. The two armies clashed in battle near Needles, a small city in eastern California. The invasion ground to a halt.

Nobody knows who pressed the button first. Some say that it was a panicked response to a distress call broadcast by the Citadel Starstation and the satellites across the world falling silent. Others believe that the holocaust was triggered by men driven mad by their lust for power. But regardless of cause, the war brought human civilization down, killing millions and placing the survivors in the Dark Ages again.

On the same day that the U.S. and Soviet Union were attempting to extinguish each other, a company of U.S. Army Engineers were in the southwestern deserts building transportation bridges over dry riverbeds. As the nuclear holocaust took place, they sought shelter in a newly-constructed federal prison. Expelling the convicts (all of whom were condemned to death) to the surrounding deserts, they claimed the prison as their own. Over the weeks that passed, they invited the neighbouring small survivalist communities to join them. As the settlement grew and scouting parties ventured beyond the surrounding deserts, scouts reported that other communities survived the atomic maelstrom.

Inspired by their success, the inhabitants of the former prison took it upon themselves to help other survivors rebuild and establish new lives. Following in the tradition of Arizona and Texas Rangers a century before, they took the mantle of Desert Rangers.

For nearly a century the wasteland seemed largely peaceful, if violent and dangerous at times. But dark clouds gather on the horizon and old ghosts come to life to threaten the world once more...

Note: Vigilant readers will notice that the above background largely differs from the backstory provided by the manual. That's because it's a composite of what is stated in the manual and what is actually included in the game. The game features remnants of the Russo-Chinese invasion (many elements in Needles, nationalities available during character creation etc.), while no mention is made of either the Citadel or the satellites disappearing. Thus, I've decided to write down the backstory, trying to include facts from both, ignoring what obviously doesn't fit. A possible in-universe explanation is that Karl Allard (in-universe author of the manual backstory) was born after the War and didn't have access to historical data. That or the manual was written way before the game was shipped.

[cah]

This is what the manual gives, but it's largely inconsistent with the game. There are plenty of references to an invasion (likely the Sino-Russian invasion of the American West), as well as leftover Soviet weapons, the ability to choose a Russian and Chinese nationality etc. For the purposes of the NMA Let's Play, I compiled what I believe is a more accurate background:

It's a technicality that doesn't change the fact that nukes are indeed to blame for the total destruction.

As for the alleged inconsistencies:
The weapons can be explained by the changes to the arms distribution due to the Drug Wars.
In FO you could also play as a Russian with a plausible explanation. Moreover, PC nationality doesn't have any effect in-game, so I'd rather see it as non-canon instead.

[Mordul]

I can easily see how contemporary issues could be exaggerated into hyperbole in the post-apocalypse. Something like a group who tries to continue humanity, but only with Pure Americans/Mexicans/Displaced Japanese. By the time the Desert Rangers come upon the group the last two males kill each other leaving a society destined to die. Or a group who set up a "true" Democracy where everyone not only can vote everyone MUST vote. But this leads to a problem whenever some one becomes pregnant. When does the baby get to vote? Does the mother get the baby's vote? What about marriage? Must the entire community agree to the match? Divorce? Can the group elect a representative to meet with outsiders? But what if s/he fails to follow the will of the community? How do trade negotiations with merchants resolve?

These seem more childish than a hyperbole.

I agree that a writer could create more logical ideas taking place in the wasteland, but I was going for a more humorous vibe. Hopefully my ideas would be blatantly obvious as unsupportable ideas, but this is similar to Fallout's Vaultec experiments. Most seem dangerous, but all are explorations of science (including political science) that would be unfeasible/unethical in modern society. One example is the Nature v. Nurture argument. The only way to eliminate nurture, is to abandon a child in such a way that we may observe it without interacting with it. Pretty much impossible, unless we have a nuclear apocalypse which strands a child in the wilderness/ in a vault/ etc.

[Bryce777]

This site is for legitimate fans of WL1 and backers, not for political nonsense.

Please lock and ban this obvious troll/nutjob.

[Sub-Human]

This is what the manual gives, but it's largely inconsistent with the game. There are plenty of references to an invasion (likely the Sino-Russian invasion of the American West), as well as leftover Soviet weapons, the ability to choose a Russian and Chinese nationality etc.

I don't see how that's wrong. Russians invade the US, a few battles here and there, total blackout, both sides believe it's the enemy, they have a little bomb exchange. Maybe it wouldn't really make sense, but who cares? The Soviet Union wasn't known for preserving its kind for a stupid idea. Besides, considering the outcome it's obvious Gorbachev wasn't the head of the state in-game. As for the US, they already had a reason to kick Russia's ass with something more extreme, this time for real.

[Mandemon]

Sounds almost like Fallout background, except there it was China only invading US. Tough in Fallout source of conflict was resources, not Citadel space station.

[Drool]

as well as leftover Soviet weapons, the ability to choose a Russian and Chinese nationality etc.

Only only weapon in the game is Soviet, and it's a Kalashnakov. Assuming the AK-97 is similar to real AK models, having it in America wouldn't be surprising in the least: they're cheap, reliable, and common as dirt. It wouldn't take a full scale invasion (WOLVERINES!) to populate the country with them. As for being able to play Russian and Chinese nationalities, how does that indicate an invasion? Russians have been coming to America since 1862, and Chinese since 1820. There's currently over 3 million of each who identify as Russian- or Chinese-American.

[rekzkarz]

This site is for legitimate fans of WL1 and backers, not for political nonsense.
Please lock and ban this obvious troll/nutjob.

Do you want yourself banned?!? Ha (fine by me, haven't seen you add anything to the discussion except to call me names. Which I laugh at, btw.)

I have def enjoyed the posts popping up on this thread.

Another commentary could be re: the current dilemma of an 'obesity epidemic' in USA! Imagine people teetering on famine and thirst looking back to discover that people suffered from too much food!! Seems relevant.

I wonder if people use any form of calendaring? Do they set appointments (ie meet you there next month)? Would they use Roman Calendar? Are there 'cultural' holidays? Would the Wasteland world honor USA holidays -- or new ones? What would a labor day or an Independence Day be like?

Society has move around so much since first game was made -- the instantaneous global communications of the Internet for people (not just military) and not just telephones -- who knew that'd be ubiquitous 20 years later, in our world?

I'd be happy to see some tech we have now (or have just begun) appear in Wasteland 2 -- which didn't make Wasteland (1) bc it wasn't even conceived of at the time -- could be stem cells, drones, AI's, GPS tech, google earth, etc.
Maybe on a mission someone finds a working computer with Google Earth (or maps) working -- would that be an 'artifact'? Something we see as an everyday thing could be huge there -- an operating (err, hacked) cell tower could change a community totally.

Not sure all those ideas were political, so I may have drifted a bit laterally. Ooops.

[Grim Monk]

I'd be happy to see some tech we have now (or have just begun) appear in Wasteland 2 -- which didn't make Wasteland (1) bc it wasn't even conceived of at the time -- could be stem cells, drones, AI's, GPS tech, google earth, etc.
Maybe on a mission someone finds a working computer with Google Earth (or maps) working -- would that be an 'artifact'? Something we see as an everyday thing could be huge there -- an operating (err, hacked) cell tower could change a community totally.

Wait, lets say they were making a new Mad Max film.
By this logic Max should find a Toyota Prius Plug-in hybrid, and an Ipad with Google Maps...

You must admit that sound kind of goofy.

Another commentary could be re: the current dilemma of an 'obesity epidemic' in USA! Imagine people teetering on famine and thirst looking back to discover that people suffered from too much food!! Seems relevant.

I'm unsure that a Town on the brink of starvation would be thinking about overweight people who died 70-100 years ago.
It would seem that the problems of "here and now" would take precedence.

Edit: Although, come to think about it, in Wasteland 1 there was Crime Boss called "Fat Freddy" in Las Vegas.

I wonder if people use any form of calendaring? Do they set appointments (ie meet you there next month)? Would they use Roman Calendar? Are there 'cultural' holidays? Would the Wasteland world honor USA holidays -- or new ones? What would a labor day or an Independence Day be like?

An actually interesting question, how would destruction and disruption of centralized government and religion affect those factors...

[Mordul]

This site is for legitimate fans of WL1 and backers, not for political nonsense.
Please lock and ban this obvious troll/nutjob.

Do you want yourself banned?!? Ha (fine by me, haven't seen you add anything to the discussion except to call me names. Which I laugh at, btw.)

I have def enjoyed the posts popping up on this thread.

Another commentary could be re: the current dilemma of an 'obesity epidemic' in USA! Imagine people teetering on famine and thirst looking back to discover that people suffered from too much food!! Seems relevant.

I wonder if people use any form of calendaring? Do they set appointments (ie meet you there next month)? Would they use Roman Calendar? Are there 'cultural' holidays? Would the Wasteland world honor USA holidays -- or new ones? What would a labor day or an Independence Day be like?

Society has move around so much since first game was made -- the instantaneous global communications of the Internet for people (not just military) and not just telephones -- who knew that'd be ubiquitous 20 years later, in our world?

I'd be happy to see some tech we have now (or have just begun) appear in Wasteland 2 -- which didn't make Wasteland (1) bc it wasn't even conceived of at the time -- could be stem cells, drones, AI's, GPS tech, google earth, etc.
Maybe on a mission someone finds a working computer with Google Earth (or maps) working -- would that be an 'artifact'? Something we see as an everyday thing could be huge there -- an operating (err, hacked) cell tower could change a community totally.

Not sure all those ideas were political, so I may have drifted a bit laterally. Ooops.

I'm divided about providing more advanced tech to Wasteland 2. 1. Its a GAME anything should be possible if given a logical backstory. 2. Wasteland is based on an apocalypse taking place in the 1980s, so prototypes of military and industrial tech could exist, but how far? 3. Scorpitrons and Power Armor need to be in-game for sure.

Survivors of the Apocalypse would likely stick to the Gregorian Calendar we are familiar with, but I could easily see a society dropping the names and holidays when there is no central authority to remind them its Christmas Shopping Season or tax time. Days and seasons remain the same so I'm not contemplating a new 38 hour day or anything.

How about this scenario. We have all heard of a snake-oil saleman. In postapocalytia a weary, fearful, and unlettered community could easily be tricked by a good con-man. Once he gains control of a community whether through technological gifts, religious fervor, or sheer personality, he could continue to expand control over surrounding areas.

I bring this up because it would be interesting to bring down a corrupt leader without shooting the place up. Could you use logic to break his enthralled masses? Find evidence of his corruption? Or would you have to fire fire with fire? Evangelize the code of the Desert Rangers or a different philosophy. Perhaps you come in between two settlements fighting each other, not for goods, but for people? Would you support the ruthless Lawman bringing order, but eliminating threats, or would you pick the bandit leader who doesn't hide what he is and allows advancement and growth among his clan? Maybe a cult worships Michael Jordan and spends all its time practicing its free-throws, while a biker gang found some old reels of Evel Knievel and spends more time jumping active Scorpitrons than running down some caravan.

Misbeguided, sure. Dangerous, to who? Your allies or your enemies?

[Drool]

Wasteland is based on an apocalypse taking place in the 1980s, so prototypes of military and industrial tech could exist, but how far?

The game was made in the 80's, but the apocalypse took place in 1998. The existence of a fully self-aware AI in the mid-90s means that trying to extrapolate Wasteland tech via modern tech is going to be an exercise in futility, much like it would be in Fallout. Wasteland's reality fork is 30 years more recent, but it still happened. I think most internet-type things would be both out of place and largely useless anyway after 70 years of degradation and neglect.

Survivors of the Apocalypse would likely stick to the Gregorian Calendar we are familiar with, but I could easily see a society dropping the names and holidays when there is no central authority to remind them its Christmas Shopping Season or tax time.

It rather depends. A devout community that survived the nuclear war would probably view it as divine protection because of their faith, making religious holidays extremely important. For Christians, that would certain include Easter and Christmas (which is more than just a shopping season, you know). Things like tax day or Take Your Daughter To Work day will likely be more or less instantly forgotten as there will be no IRS or work to go to. For most people, however, holidays are probably going to be supplanted by something else or simply ignored, depending on how dire their situation is.

Evil Kneivil

Evel Knievel.

[Woolfe]

What you describes sounds suspiciously like Enclave from Fallout 2.

Now that you tell it do like a bit, even though even enclave/us govt didn't nuked their own country. But the plot line I was thinking about is somewhat different because there wouldn't be such an entity, but some people would still believe there is. And because many villains and plotlines in computer games do pull inspiration out of conspiracy theories it could be even made believable enough in-game so player could be actually tricked into believing it himself, and going after an imaginary enemy. It actually could be quite a fun plot line - like some charismatic conspiracy theorist can convince a player (rangers party) that their officials are evil conspirators, making the party desert the service or even turn against it. I think it could be great! It is even possible to spice things up with a little bit of "evidence" which could be interpreted as supporting the conspiracy theories making player decision even more difficult.

I'd like to expand on that conspiracy theorist. Have a whole "underground" of them. A nutter in each village, working together against the Government (possibly you) and maybe being used by groups like the Guardians for their own purposes.

Could be an interesting dynamic, especially if they start actively suggesting the Rangers are bad guys and influencing people against you.

[rekzkarz]

Could be an interesting dynamic, especially if they start actively suggesting the Rangers are bad guys and influencing people against you.

Awesome.

Didn't know the calendar idea would be such a hot topic -- I'd figure that society creates calendars & times, so it'd be open to each community.

As for Wasteland 1 not having Internet or cellphones/iPads & forking off in the 90's, is Wasteland 2 required to be similarly constrained? Can the backstory be updated to something which might ring as more realistic for us now -- push d-day out to 2025?
I personally don't think that's ruin anything, and would allow commentary about recent stuff, which was the rationale behind this topic.

Lots of great material to consider here in this thread -- thank you to all contributors.

Last point -- I think a combat-modified Prius (chuckle!!) and the hacked iPad which can GPS when it finds a satellite or cell was kinda cool.

[Woolfe]

Could be an interesting dynamic, especially if they start actively suggesting the Rangers are bad guys and influencing people against you.

Awesome.

Didn't know the calendar idea would be such a hot topic -- I'd figure that society creates calendars & times, so it'd be open to each community.

I didn't even read the stuff about the calendar... wasn't bothered, most of what you were saying I thought was rubbish, but the discussion it inspired was good. Sorry.

As for Wasteland 1 not having Internet or cellphones/iPads & forking off in the 90's, is Wasteland 2 required to be similarly constrained? Can the backstory be updated to something which might ring as more realistic for us now -- push d-day out to 2025?
I personally don't think that's ruin anything, and would allow commentary about recent stuff, which was the rationale behind this topic.

I'm not against it, but it needs to be well done, and anyway they wouldn't be contemporary modern items, as there would be all sorts of licensing issues. Inspired by, sure.

Lots of great material to consider here in this thread -- thank you to all contributors.

Last point -- I think a combat-modified Prius (chuckle!!) and the hacked iPad which can GPS when it finds a satellite or cell was kinda cool.

The battery life on a prius is very short. Or it was, I must admit I haven't looked lately. Either way I don't think they would last 70+ years.

GPS is gone. ALL the worlds satelites were destroyed.... Kinda what led to the whole nuclear annihilation thing... Did you read the stuff people posted???

[rekzkarz]

The battery life on a prius is very short. Or it was, I must admit I haven't looked lately. Either way I don't think they would last 70+ years.
GPS is gone. ALL the worlds satelites were destroyed.... Kinda what led to the whole nuclear annihilation thing... Did you read the stuff people posted???

Well, the battery a prius comes wth is short. But batteries can be replaced, no?

And couldn't there just be one-three satellites still up there in Geo-sync orbit? Maybe a few survived? Or, if there's no satellite GPS, well -- couldn' there be other methods for Global Positioning? Could be based on magnetic fields, sun and moon (and other planets) gravity or light, or maybe something no one has thought of? Defunct towers, landmarks, etc? (I have no idea -- it's why it's scifi, no?)

While I understand folks have posted that it's all gone & it's before modern tech, how hard is it to accept that the game might vary a bit? "There are no more X anymore" and then suddenly, "Actually, there is still one X remaining!" etc. In fact, for many of these post-apocalyptic games, finding the one remaining X tends to be a theme, no?

[Drool]

"There are no more X anymore" and then suddenly, "Actually, there is still one X remaining!" etc. In fact, for many of these post-apocalyptic games, finding the one remaining X tends to be a theme, no?

That tends to smack of retcon and lazy writing. Instead of working within the world they created, they just backpedal and undo the inconvenient things.

[rekzkarz]

That tends to smack of retcon and lazy writing. Instead of working within the world they created, they just backpedal and undo the inconvenient things.

Isn't RETCON how Harry Potter was written? Didn't seem to harm that endeavor too much.
(Of course there were werewolves the whole time, etc.)