Power Armour dominating late game

[Inca]

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Who said anything about marathons?
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You mean a tactic designed specifically to defeat mounted knights in full armor was effective against mounted knights in full armor? Astounding.

Just to beat the dead pony into a bloody pulp:
The weight of the full plate armor figures prominently in it's history. Though the fellow in the video sprinted 50 yards on a level road, the mother nature was rarely that kind to the full plate armor. The real battle would start lining up just out of arrow range about 300 yards away, and defenders would be (if they are not complete morans) up the hill. And if you ever ran across a fallow field or in snow or in mud, you would know how hard it is compare to a level park road.
Further, history is full of examples where a dismounted knight in the full armor died due to the weight, bulk, and poor thermal management of their armor:
Agincourt, 3rd Battle of Jerusalem, Ladoga Lake battle (accidently mounted), Grunwald forest battle...knights were dying in the mud, sun (due to dehydration and heat stroke), sinking under the ice of the lake, or plain heat exhaustion.
Further, their capacity to charge was very limited by the strength of their horses, even much lighter cuirassiers of Murat bungled their charges because they would start galloping 600 yards away from enemy lines, and by the time they would reach the adversary their horses would be so exhausted that they would fall or walk.
So "marathons" need not be in a definition, simply covering 300 yards and than fighting would take thew wind out of a worrior in a full plate, due to simple terrane.
Further, the pole armed infantry formation was not a tactic specifically designed to defeat fully armored knight, it was a universal approach (until and including tercios tactics) to defeat any enemy.
Finally, what early musket would not do, all sorts of pole arms would-penetrate armor. In fact the best cavalry of the 14-15 century-Hungarian mercinaries barely wore any armor, and they were trashing europien heavy cavalries with a war hammer and speed.
Even in moder times tanks had to be supported by infantry because defending infantry could take out unprotected tank with a grenade bundle or an RPG.
In Fallout PA absorbed the best qualities of the armor without giving it all the drawbacks, which is not kosher in my book.

[Gizmo]

In Fallout PA absorbed the best qualities of the armor without giving it all the drawbacks, which is not kosher in my book.

I'll agree with that certainly. But Power armor should be weightless when worn, and the wearer's stamina should last a lot longer, and with no penalty for carried gear. The PC's strength inside the suit should really have no bearing on their own, for if the suit can't lift something; surely the occupant would damage the suit trying to force it. The PC's agility should likewise be ignored, because if the suit can't move that way, or that quickly ~you can't force it from inside.

PA's benefit should be incredible armorclass, Strength & Agility equal to the suit (a problem if the PC were stronger than the suit; or if the PC relies on agility to dodge, but the given suit can't move that fast).

IMO the things should weigh a few hundred pounds; that certainly contradicts Fallout for example (the Enclave PA weighs 45lbs and would seem to be plastic). I would prefer it have the weight, because for one thing that's the only way to plausibly allow for minigun use; and I would want that to only be possible if wearing power armor; and also it would allow the suit to have drawbacks relating to that great weight, and also it should increase the minimum space needed to pass through an opening, and make dodging more difficult.

But on the flipside, PA could provide radiation shielding (where leather would not), and could plausibly offer a targeting computer (option?) that had servo control of the limbs ~and could actually do what is claimed... it could forcibly improve one's aim by moving the gun with the arms of the powered suit.

[Inca]

Just to be clear, your suggestion is to assign specific physical attributes to power armor, and once in the suit, the player has the attributes of the armor?

[Gizmo]

Just to be clear, your suggestion is to assign specific physical attributes to power armor, and once in the suit, the player has the attributes of the armor?

Well... Though that might throw a wrench into the character development mechanics... essentially yes.

Consider that the wearer is effectively inside a robot that has it's own joints and actuators; the wearer can stand with their arms outstretched and be at ease ~while the robot has a 150 pound weight in each hand; it's not like the wearer feels even an ounce of that weight. Consider also, another wearer has a lighter model PA that cannot dead lift 350 pounds ~but they can ~but being inside the suit, they are pressing against it's interior and it is not designed to lift such a weight. it would be like trying to lift metal crate from inside of another metal crate underneath it.

Also consider that the suit may have a maximum flexibility. In this case the operator can do the splits and a back handspring but the suit simply cannot bend like that ~this would restrict even the most agile contortionist to the limits of the suit's mobility; not their own.

** But another thing to consider is the PC built with the idea that they can just put on power armor and not bother developing their strength ~pouring their points into other stats... But what happens when the PA breaks and they are not strong enough to carry it ~suddenly that weightless armor becomes a severe burden, and might require they drop everything else, or perhaps even then they cannot lift it; or cannot physically get to somewhere they need to be, without leaving the suit behind; and yet lacking the strength (when outside of the suit), to succeed at whatever they went there to do.

*** Note: I would really like to see that PA be an exception to the all to common "stick it in inventory" method. When not worn, IMO it should be on the ground, or being visibly hauled by one or more characters; with the option that if any PC has the skill to dismantle it into a few pieces that it can be split among party members ~but that PC would also have to re-assemble it to use it again. Perhaps that PC could even dismantle two damaged (identical) suits and reassemble one working model.

[krellen]

16th century plate != High Middle Ages plate or "full plate" on the battlefield for the most part. We're talking Cortez vs. "knights."

I'm talking about full plate when I quote 50 pounds, and I'm really tired of having to correct people on simple historical facts - the SAME historical facts - over and over again.

You're also handily ignoring the longbow and the triumph of the English longbow over France.

Agincourt was a single battle: a decisive one that allowed the King to not get murdered on foreign soil, yes, but just a single battle. Longbows were good weapons. They did not invalidate the value of armour on the battlefield.

[JerryLove]

No runner will win a sprint in full plate... and they will likely not complete a marathon.

Who said anything about marathons?

Me. Just before your post. In fact: you just quoted it.

But the short of it was that armored knights were not a match for a pole-arm square.

Conversely (and as pointed out), full armor was not an advantage for a pole-arm square either.

You mean a tactic designed specifically to defeat mounted knights in full armor was effective against mounted knights in full armor? Astounding.

I wouldn't know.

The Pole-arm square (sometimes referred to a a porcupine), which was designed to kill melee units including infantry and cavalry, was good at taking down armored cavalry.

[Woolfe]

So Our definitions of Power Armour are getting larger

Power Armour -

Shielded - Creates a "field" of some type that improves defence.
- Passive - the field is always on and covers the entire "suit".
- Active - the field affects only the point of impact.

Enhanced - The armour enhances the physical attributes of the wearer, enabling them to wear heavier armour.

Vehicle - The Power armour suit is more akin to Mecha/Gear in which the physical attributes of the user are immaterial (or Manual dexterity is the only one which counts)

These are the 3 main areas I can see, there would no doubt be some degree of overlap allowed as well.

I have always considered Fallout armour to be mostly "Enhanced" type, hence the bonus to strength.
I can't find the descirption of Wasteland power armour, but I recall Krellan or Drool mentioning it in another thread. From that description we didn't really get much on it I beleive, so it is probably anyones guess.

[abyss]

Don't buy into the "everybody belongs in a tin can" agenda, it will only lead to humanity's doom.

The Wasteland 2 intro shows us that nanites and leather jackets are our future against the ever-encroaching robotic menace:

http://youtu.be/doteMqP6eSc

[Gizmo]

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I don't see any overlap; Power Armor has always been all three. It's a hollow humanoid robot; you get inside of it and it avoids you. It's shell shields you (from gunfire; melee attack, and radiation, and airborne pollutants).

In fact... I'd say it's even plausible to set something like that to an auto-follow mode, and have it walk behind you like a pack mule.

[cmagruder]

16th century plate != High Middle Ages plate or "full plate" on the battlefield for the most part. We're talking Cortez vs. "knights."

I'm talking about full plate when I quote 50 pounds, and I'm really tired of having to correct people on simple historical facts - the SAME historical facts - over and over again.

You're also handily ignoring the longbow and the triumph of the English longbow over France.

Agincourt was a single battle: a decisive one that allowed the King to not get murdered on foreign soil, yes, but just a single battle. Longbows were good weapons. They did not invalidate the value of armour on the battlefield.

Stop being disingenuous.



and



do not equal



or



You'll also note he references "full armor" over "full plate."

[Drool]

Me. Just before your post. In fact: you just quoted it.

So you were randomly bringing up irrelevancies. Got it.

The Pole-arm square (sometimes referred to a a porcupine), which was designed to kill melee units including infantry and cavalry, was good at taking down armored cavalry.

Yes. It was good at doing what it was invented to do. This is hardly earth-shattering, nor does it invalidate armor. New things designed to deal with old things are usually quite good at doing so. That's rather the point in coming up with them.

[krellen]

Stop being disingenuous.

I'M NOT.

The 50 pound figure refers to the armour worn by the friend of that presenter I linked. Cut ahead to the running segment - 35 minutes in. That is the armour that weighs fifty pounds.

That is full plate armour. Full coverage. Every inch. FIFTY POUNDS.

[Woolfe]

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I don't see any overlap; Power Armor has always been all three. It's a hollow humanoid robot; you get inside of it and it avoids you. It's shell shields you (from gunfire; melee attack, and radiation, and airborne pollutants).

In fact... I'd say it's even plausible to set something like that to an auto-follow mode, and have it walk behind you like a pack mule.

Really?

I didn't have that impression at all. I was thinking definately "enhanced" but not Vehicle.

Below is the fallout Power armour description

The armor is fitted with a back-mounted TX-28 MicroFusion Pack which generates an output power of 60,000 Watts to power the HiFlo hydraulic systems built into the frame of the suit. Made of a poly-laminate composite, the outer shell of the T-51b is lightweight and capable of absorbing over 2500 Joules of kinetic impact. The 10-micron-thick silver ablative coating can reflect laser and other radiation emissions without damage to the composite subsurface. The armor usually carries enough fuel to last for one hundred years.

It is composed of lightweight metal alloys, reinforced with ceramic castings at key stress points. The motion-assist servo-motors used in the armor appear to be high quality models as well, giving the wearer a heavy increase to their Strength (+4). The suit has an auto-gyro system to keep it upright and the knees can be locked in position, to prevent the wearer from falling over, if, for some reason, he loses consciousness on duty (e.g. takes a nap).[1] Additionally, like the T-51b power armor, it includes a recycling system that can convert human waste into drinkable water, enhancing the ability to survive of the wearer.[2]

This is more suggestive of the "enhanced" type rather than a vehicle type. There is no "shielding" (as in force field), just advanced armour, enhanced to allow "normal" movement and extra strength.
I find it interesting that it is "powered" but that the charge will last 100 years.

Now obviously Wasteland won't have the exact same thing but its certainly indicitive of the sort of thinking around the suits.

[Woolfe]

Stop being disingenuous.

I'M NOT.

The 50 pound figure refers to the armour worn by the friend of that presenter I linked. Cut ahead to the running segment - 35 minutes in. That is the armour that weighs fifty pounds.

That is full plate armour. Full coverage. Every inch. FIFTY POUNDS.

I actually agree with Krellan, and it makes sense to me.
But I do need to point out that we are talking a hundreds of years of development. Presumeably during that period there would have been different types of armour, there certainly would have been tech advances. Metallurgy, Smithing, etc. We have already mentioned armour being expensive and so it would have been passed down over the years etc. I presume natural selection would have reduced this, but the reality is, Heavy Cav ruled the battlefield mostly because they were on horseback and having a charge of fully armoured horse + Knight hitting ranks of infantry did horrible things both in terms of physical and psychological damage. So it wouldn't be unreasonable for "bad armour" to have lasted several generations longer than it should have.

Oh and Agincourt was a victory of terrain, and french stupidity more than anything. It did however prove without a doubt that Longbows were effective at punching through armour.

[CaptainPatch]

But Power armor should be weightless when worn, and the wearer's stamina should last a lot longer, and with no penalty for carried gear.

It's magic armor! Unoccupied, it weighs 300 pounds, but put a person inside, it's suddenly weightless!

Just joshing. I know what you meant, but your theory is somewhat flawed. Gravity _still_ is functioning, so there WILL be some resistance wherever the body is in contact with the suit. For example, if you lift your arm while fully extended, the upper surface of the arm will catch some of the arm armor's weight. General movement will involve frequent pressure as the body inside the suit presses against it here and there. People that use powered exoskeletons relate that a session leaves them feeling like they've had a serious workout. Additionally, if you _didn't_ have the positive feedback from the suit, you'd be constantly overpowering your surround environment. Try to pick up a small object and instead you crush it. Take a step forward and lightly brush against a piece of furniture and it turns into toothpicks. That kind of thing.

Further, while a powered exoskeleton is wide open, a suit of PA would be a "closed environment". It MUST have at least as good of an internal air conditioning system as an astronaut's space suit. [Most people prefer their room temperature to be about 72 degrees Fahrenheit. HOWEVER, your body has an internal temperature of 98.6 degrees F. So, loosely speaking, you are constantly trying to dump @25 degrees of body heat. If you are closed into an unventilated suit, without some means to bleed off that excess heat, you will cook yourself with your own body heat. And it takes a LOT of ventilation to keep your cool!]

You're also handily ignoring the longbow and the triumph of the English longbow over France.

Agincourt was a single battle: a decisive one that allowed the King to not get murdered on foreign soil, yes, but just a single battle. Longbows were good weapons. They did not invalidate the value of armour on the battlefield.

You seem to have overlooked the battles of Crecy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy and Poiters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Poitiers_%281356%29. French knights in full armor versus English with lots of longbows. Longbows win.

[Woolfe]

krellen wrote:

You're also handily ignoring the longbow and the triumph of the English longbow over France.


Agincourt was a single battle: a decisive one that allowed the King to not get murdered on foreign soil, yes, but just a single battle. Longbows were good weapons. They did not invalidate the value of armour on the battlefield.


You seem to have overlooked the battles of Crecy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy and Poiters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... %281356%29. French knights in full armor versus English with lots of longbows. Longbows win.

Yep, but not just because of the longbows. They helped a lot, and may have been decisive. BUT it was the tactics and terrain as much as that. Interestingly the second article suggests that the longbows couldn't penetrate the armour well. Which is different to what I had been lead to believe. However the bringing down the horse aspect was definately a time honoured way of breaking a cav charge

I do love the Longbow v Crossbow issue at Crecy however. Classic wrong tool for the situation.

[Inca]

Heavy Cav ruled the battlefield mostly because they were on horseback and having a charge of fully armoured horse + Knight hitting ranks of infantry did horrible things both in terms of physical and psychological damage.
Oh and Agincourt was a victory of terrain, and french stupidity more than anything. It did however prove without a doubt that Longbows were effective at punching through armour.

Woolfe, both of those assertions are inacurate. Heavy cavalry did not rule the battlefield-infantry did, and longbow is ineffective against armor, though very effective agains poorly armored troops.

[cmagruder]

It did however prove without a doubt that Longbows were effective at punching through armour.

The video (by an art historian) has a number of issues with it, especially with trying to make the 1500s the High Middle Ages.

I also disagree that everybody was in "full plate" in battles in the mid to late 1500s where the French Marshal doing flips was described, and with the notion that a "rogue" would be in it.

The video suggests "full armor" rather than "full plate" which is far more believable.

My main point is to disagree with the idea of "everybody must be in Power Armor in the endgame or they're dead." And no, I certainly don't want it to be not awesome. I love power armor. I'm not suggesting that everybody conclude the game in leather jackets, either, but that there's a number of neat ideas for interesting or alternate endgame progression type armor.

Folks should get to be the people with the longbows, especially if there's a stealth system.

[Gizmo]

This is more suggestive of the "enhanced" type rather than a vehicle type. There is no "shielding" (as in force field), just advanced armour, enhanced to allow "normal" movement and extra strength.
I find it interesting that it is "powered" but that the charge will last 100 years.

I've read both descriptions many times.

What does "HiFlo hydraulic systems built into the frame of the suit" suggest in your opinion?

** Also, I have never read on any forum the notion that PA has any kind of 'force field'; and I've never seen it in print or in the games (we've mentioned); or ever implied or suggested it myself.

Now obviously Wasteland won't have the exact same thing but its certainly indicitive of the sort of thinking around the suits.

Agreed.

Tell me: Does it look like this (possibly 6' man) has his feet in the armor's feet; or his hands in the armor's hands?

I'd say it's impossible, and that his hands are deep in the forearms, and his feet in the armor's calves.


** Think of PA as being like SAMAS armor, or like "Glitter-Boy" [armor], but lower tech and on a smaller scale.

[Drool]

What does "HiFlo hydraulic systems built into the frame of the suit" suggest in your opinion?

Either a cooling system or the mechanism to power the servo motors.

Tell me: Does it look like this (possibly 6' man) has his feet in the armor's feet; or his hands in the armor's hands?

I always pictured it to look like the Clan Elementals in Battletech. Granted, the "people" in the suits were something like 8' tall themselves, but the suit was a mini-mech, adding about 2 feet to their overall height, but they were much thicker and didn't have a removable helmet; you climbed in through a hatch in the back.

I'd say it's impossible, and that his hands are deep in the forearms, and his feet in the armor's calves.

I'd say it's bad art design in the clip. For one, there isn't that kind of discrepancy in-game. For another, if his feet were at the calves, he'd have to have his toes pointed down like a ballerina, which would make it very difficult to wear for any extended period of time.

Also, they're not tall enough to put the feet up in the calves anyway. Assuming the civilian is 6 feet tall, his head would come up to around the pectorals on the soldier, making the soldier about two feet taller. Assuming his head is in the helmet (which we have to from when we see people sans helmet), that would put his feet roughly at the knees. That puts a point of articulation below his feet while forcing him to run stiff-legged inside the suit. That suit would need half its weight allocated to gyroscopes to keep anyone from falling over. Yeah, I'm sticking with blaming art-design.