Power Armour dominating late game

[abyss]

A couple of you have no clue! Rogues use evasion, dodge, and high natural/base AC. Armor caps out a rogue's AC potential, especially with all the magic/mastercrafted items they use to increase their base AC. AC doesn't reduce damage, it only helps you avoid it. A shot penetrating a plate wearing fighter, is going to do exactly the same damage against a cloth wearing monk. For those that don't rely on it, thicker armor hurts more than it helps. Not everyone has to dress like a tank, hiding in a metal can to fight - that's just terrible game design.

Bronn vs Sir Vardis bitches!
http://youtu.be/IHsxsyp9Vgo

[JerryLove]

You're just wrong about this. In a medieval setting, gear progression ends with plate armour (or "super leather", in games with an armour/class "balance".) In a futuristic setting, gear progression ends with power armour (though, as I illustrated earlier in the thread, "power armour" can mean many things.)

Yes. I remember Power armor in the Mad Max series of future settings, and I remember it in Book of Eli, and The Road, and Waterworld, and all those 80s post-apocalyptic moves, and the Planet of the Apes series. I remember it in Alas Babylon. I see it in all those non-apocalypse SciFi moves too, like Star Trek and Star Wars, and Battlestar Galactica.

Wait. I didn't see it in any of those.

But at least you are right about medieval-era movies and games. Lord of the Rings certainly ended up with all of our protagonists in plate mail (BTW: Which plate are you discussing? There are quite a few varieties), didn't it?

How about "The Name of the Rose". That was medieval wasn't it? When did Sean Connory get his PlateMail? LadyHawk had a couple pieces of plate didn't it? Dragonslayer? Conan?

What's the point of points in this post? (None of these are games.)

Responses to two claims of Krellen's. One was about the sci-fi genre (which is not a game specific claim), and the other was about claimed differences between games and other media in regards to sequels.

[krellen]

A couple of you have no clue! Rogues use evasion, dodge, and high natural/base AC. Armor caps out a rogue's AC potential, especially with all the magic/mastercrafted items they use to increase their base AC. AC doesn't reduce damage, it only helps you avoid it. A shot penetrating a plate wearing fighter, is going to do exactly the same damage against a cloth wearing monk. For those that don't rely on it, thicker armor hurts more than it helps. Not everyone has to dress like a tank, hiding in a metal can to fight - that's just terrible game design.

That's just it - game design. It has no bearing on reality; men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults, they are capable of almost a full range of human motion. A man can sprint - full speed - in full plate armour. The only real realities reflected in games vis-a-vis plate armour is hampering sneaking (it does make a clanky clank sound) and hampering swimming (because the weight does throw off all the equilibriums of swimming, which are largely based off the human body being less dense than water). Otherwise, the so-called drawbacks are purely for game balance.

[cmagruder]

A couple of you have no clue! Rogues use evasion, dodge, and high natural/base AC. Armor caps out a rogue's AC potential, especially with all the magic/mastercrafted items they use to increase their base AC. AC doesn't reduce damage, it only helps you avoid it. A shot penetrating a plate wearing fighter, is going to do exactly the same damage against a cloth wearing monk. For those that don't rely on it, thicker armor hurts more than it helps. Not everyone has to dress like a tank, hiding in a metal can to fight - that's just terrible game design.

That's just it - game design. It has no bearing on reality; men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults, they are capable of almost a full range of human motion. A man can sprint - full speed - in full plate armour. The only real realities reflected in games vis-a-vis plate armour is hampering sneaking (it does make a clanky clank sound) and hampering swimming (because the weight does throw off all the equilibriums of swimming, which are largely based off the human body being less dense than water). Otherwise, the so-called drawbacks are purely for game balance.

How much history or modern military tactics exactly have you taken?

[krellen]

How much history or modern military tactics exactly have you taken?

I majored in history. And you're right - the other drawback was cost.

But here, I'll link once again to the guy that did more research than I did.

[abyss]

men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults

[CaptainPatch]

[However with the shield type, if something expends power to cause damage, wouldn't it logically require an equal expenditure of power to prevent that damage? So power armour could be like plate or psuedo chitin armour, but with a element of when force applied, apply opposite force to negate/reduce.

This is, I think, the greatest shortcoming of energy shields. Shields either have a limited facing, or if its a uniform field, it is a sphere that encapsulates what is to be protected. Whatever the facing, the problem of the Defense is that there is no ability to identify at which point the attack will strike. For example, assuming a forward-facing shield that covers from the top of the skull all the way down to the knees. That's roughly an area of 2' x 4' = 8 square feet of area to be protected. To completely nullify an incoming shot that has a strength of X joules (or whatever measurement it is that gets used) the shield would have to have a force of X joules across every square inch of those 8 square feet. That means to fully protect the wearer, the shield needs many, many times the energy that the most powerful likely weapon discharges. In short, it's not "cost effective".

The most effective shield wouldn't so much attempt to block an attack as it would try to channel the force away from the user. That incurs a whole host of other problems, chief of which is "Where to?" Your squadmates are NOT going to be thrilled that a hot meant for you got ricocheted to them. If they also have shields that work the same way, the party will look like the insides of a hyperactive pinball machine. With a substantial amount of damage managing to sneak some poor squadmate's shield. Anyway, the most likely effect would be to somewhat "cushion the blow". That means that you would still need decent armor to absorb what DID get through.

Oh, and if you thought the energy demands for power-assisted movement would be a lot, the energy requirements for any kind of shield would be ENORMOUS. (Hence the "not cost effective.")

[krellen]

men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults

[Trollface]

Skip to about the 30 minute mark.

[Woolfe]

This is, I think, the greatest shortcoming of energy shields. <Shield stuff snip>

It depends on the shield. You either have, shield always there, or responsive shield. So imagine something that can detect and form a shield at the point of contact. So in a way its a point defence system on a smaller scale.

I believe there are materials that do this at the moment, in a different manner. As in you hit it with something at high speed and it will harden and bounce off, however it can be cut, because the kinetic force to provide the strength isn't there when cutting, but is if a bullet hit it. That sort of thing. (I wish I could remember the example of this).

So I was thinking you have a very weak field around the entire armour that "hardens" or powers up at the point that something hard and fast hits it. The shields in Dune(Movie) were meant to be somewhat like this I believe.

[Drool]

Lots of folks didn't wear armor. It took as long to get into a suit of plate as it does a Hollywood makeup job for a horror movie. Chain/scale/brigandine is the neglected intermediary you're looking for though.

That's why my wizard created a spell to put armor on magically. The lower level version gave you bonuses like you would have with a fully trained squire assisting while the higher level version all but teleported the plate on, allowing you to suit up in less than a turn. Lengthy suiting up is for chumps.

[Gizmo]

men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg

[abyss]

http://youtu.be/IHsxsyp9Vgo

[JerryLove]

That's just it - game design. It has no bearing on reality; men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults, they are capable of almost a full range of human motion. A man can sprint - full speed - in full plate armour.

No runner will win a sprint in full plate... and they will likely not complete a marathon. There is a cost to wearing >100lb on you (not to mention it gets hot in there, but I'm in FL, so mileage will vary).

There are other real-world issues. Visibility is one... the helmets restrict it (most significantly in jousting gear).

But the short of it was that armored knights were not a match for a pole-arm square.

Conversely (and as pointed out), full armor was not an advantage for a pole-arm square either.

The only real realities reflected in games vis-a-vis plate armour is hampering sneaking (it does make a clanky clank sound) and hampering swimming (because the weight does throw off all the equilibriums of swimming, which are largely based off the human body being less dense than water). Otherwise, the so-called drawbacks are purely for game balance.

LOL "hampering". You sink like a stone. Been there, done that.

[Drool]

No runner will win a sprint in full plate... and they will likely not complete a marathon.

Who said anything about marathons?

But the short of it was that armored knights were not a match for a pole-arm square.

Conversely (and as pointed out), full armor was not an advantage for a pole-arm square either.

You mean a tactic designed specifically to defeat mounted knights in full armor was effective against mounted knights in full armor? Astounding.

[cmagruder]

How much history or modern military tactics exactly have you taken?

I majored in history. And you're right - the other drawback was cost.

But here, I'll link once again to the guy that did more research than I did.

You're not the only one.

Cost... and the whole longbow/bodkin/polearm ending plate dominance. The "heavy cavalry" knight was done by the end of the High Middle Ages.

There's quite a difference between "full plate" and "full armor." Jousting/heavy cavalry plate is not going to be quite so fun to move in.

The notion of a "rogue" in "full plate" much less "plate armor" is silly.

Throw on that the example of the guy doing flips and all that was from the 16th century. You've got a whole lot of historical issues here with an art historian who's doing this to be edgy.

[GodComplex]

men in plate armour can do cartwheels, they can do somersaults

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg

I believe that full plate is implied, that was half plate. There would also also be full chain under a proper armored knight. That would be fun to see how agile some of them can get.

[krellen]

There is a cost to wearing >100lb on you (not to mention it gets hot in there, but I'm in FL, so mileage will vary).

There probably is. The cost is significantly less, however, considering that plate armour weighs only about 50 pounds, which is less than the standard gear carried by modern soldiers.

Cost... and the whole longbow/bodkin/polearm ending plate dominance.

Plate armour remained relevant on the battlefield until the introduction of high-powered muskets. Even early gunpowder weaponry - for a period of centuries - were trumped by plate armour.

Those doubting the manoeuvrability of full plate armour, please go to that video I've linked twice now and skip ahead to 35:20. Tell me that guy can't manoeuvre, nor see (poleaxe fight at 36:25).

[abyss]

Ultimately what players want is equipment progression that fits the character build. At the very least have enough end-game diversity for two main archetypes - evasive/finesse builds, and tanky builds. Everyone in the team being forced to wear the same generic end-game panzerklein suit pisses players off, and makes the build choices they made the entire game meaningless - it's indefensible, unless you're one of those die-hard apologist quacks.

Let the chaingunners who carry 20 rocket launchers in their backpack romp around in their space marine armor. The stealth ninjas get upgradeable sub-dermal bio-nano interface injections that boost their bullet-dodging reflexes while acting as camo, but charges with sunlight and air so they can't wear too many pieces on top of it. The people who want to be Mad Max can find rare hardened leather jackets made from killer bunny hides, and torn denim that's been washed with irradiated mutant 3-legged hooker juice that gives it +5 DR +5 AC from hardass factor. The writers are smart enough to come up with whatever sci-fi fantasy mcguffin needed to make anything work.

In a universe with android brain transfers, and cyborgs who have tricycles for bodies, realism is secondary to good gameplay.

[MariotheWhite]

I love the concept in Fallout of the power armor. Still am convinced that exoskeletons would be more suitable for this game.
Power Armors could be substituted by small mecs like in Avatar movie and should be related to Intelligence skills in a way to compensate and give bonus to strength and endurance and speed up travel. Also, players shouldn't be able to use them inside small places. Would wait at the door like a horse.
Could exist several models, with different characteristics. With legs, with tracks, maybe jet-packs ( don't this much the idea, don't want to transform this into a mechwarrior game).

[cmagruder]

There is a cost to wearing >100lb on you (not to mention it gets hot in there, but I'm in FL, so mileage will vary).

There probably is. The cost is significantly less, however, considering that plate armour weighs only about 50 pounds, which is less than the standard gear carried by modern soldiers.

Cost... and the whole longbow/bodkin/polearm ending plate dominance.

Plate armour remained relevant on the battlefield until the introduction of high-powered muskets. Even early gunpowder weaponry - for a period of centuries - were trumped by plate armour.

Those doubting the manoeuvrability of full plate armour, please go to that video I've linked twice now and skip ahead to 35:20. Tell me that guy can't manoeuvre, nor see (poleaxe fight at 36:25).

16th century plate != High Middle Ages plate or "full plate" on the battlefield for the most part. We're talking Cortez vs. "knights." You're also handily ignoring the longbow and the triumph of the English longbow over France.

Those archers (who I'd probably classify as "rogues") didn't wear plate either, much less "full plate."