Good Crafting system

[Mordul]

The amount of times I wanted a grappling hook to climb up that damn hill. You know the one. The level design in F03 *shakes fist* I Swear! was just infuriating.

SO, make my own grappling hook, stick it on the end of a gun and shoot it into the distance.. whats there not to like?

AWESOME...for Fallout 3/NV. Isometric Turn-based Combat? Maybe to get to a rooftop, but usually they plan a map to force movement. If break those constraints...

For those who say you would not need a recipe so you could create 50 SMGs/Assault Rifles/Shotguns. While in the original Wasteland, no you did not, what if weapons in Wasteland 2 take a cue from Fallout and add Weapon Durability? Do we need to return to a gunsmith to repair our weapons? Carry around extra weapons? Hope to get a decent weapon from your last kill?
Its true that a GREAT crafting system would need either streamlining or an impressively intuitive interface. But if the community asks for it, it can certainly be made. For my two cents, I personally want an open-world to explore. If that sacrifices a few well-written/scripted side missions, well that's where expansions and mods fill a void. I want to travel the desert with as much autonomy as possible.

[rekzkarz]

I hate crafting.

I like the idea of finding bots or nanotech that can craft or upgrade stuff.
But I don't wanna.

Strangely, I don't mind 'slots' in devices that can take power-up components.

I also liked Borderlands 'randomized guns' where each had a look & feel.

[Inca]

The answer is very simple-if you hate crafting-don't craft.

[Mordul]

Just remember, just because you pass a crafting table doesn't mean you have to craft something, just because you pass a three-legged hookah...

[Fuzi0n]

The answer is very simple-if you hate crafting-don't craft.

If you play the game in nightmare mode (hardest difficulty setting), then you should practically be forced to craft. Not doing so will make the game almost impossible to complete.

[paultakeda]

The answer is very simple-if you hate crafting-don't craft.

If you play the game in nightmare mode (hardest difficulty setting), then you should practically be forced to craft. Not doing so will make the game almost impossible to complete.

I still find it funny it's all but accepted to you guys that there will be a difficulty setting. I'm not saying there won't be, but it's interesting that it's assumed. I look more to the quests as providing difficulty. From easier to harder. I like the idea of expansion modules that have a difficulty rating on them. RPGs and difficulty settings always end up, for me, to be a bad fit. They're almost always concerned with combat difficulty or introducing (forcing) on you a resource management requirement. They never do anything to the quest lines so a quest that depends on a certain type of difficulty suddenly becomes stupid simple or crazy hard.

If crafting is in this game it needs to be integrated well with the rest of it, such that it isn't belabored and flows naturally with the rest of the game. It also is as optional to do just like it is optional to choose to go at it bare knuckles and melee only (which many did in WL1) or make decisions on a quest that have far-reaching consequences. Maybe there's a quest that requires some use of the crafting system, but if so I can choose to ignore that quest if I choose to ignore crafting.

Striking that balance with all the other elements of a CRPG is hard, and I confess I'm really not interested enough to figure it out.

[SagaDC]

A good crafting system could be beneficial to a computer RPG for various reasons. It gives the player a use for items that they might otherwise not use, it grants them some further degree of customizability over their character loadout, and it opens up a new area of focus for missions. As many have stated, it doesn't have to be integral to the game, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have something included. At the very least, the manufacture or conversion of items such as ammunition, explosives, or other expendable items (medkits?) would be ideal. Of course, the real question is just where to draw the line on what can and can't be manufactured.

I've seen various crafting systems mentioned, mostly from conventional modern RPGs such as Dragon Age and the recent Fallout/Elder Scrolls titles. Personally, though, I feel that Fallout: Van Buren (the original Fallout 3 before it was canceled) has some interesting ideas on the matter. FOVB would have been the first Fallout game to have an actual, comprehensive crafting system, ostensibly for the use of "Science Boy" characters. Although the finer details are unknown, the broad strokes can still be seen in the old design documents (and to a lesser extent in Avellone's pen-and-paper Fallout RPG).

From what I understand, the general concept was that a player could take almost any item and break it into scrap. The exact type of scrap was determined by the item's nature - glass from bottles, metal from cans, electronic components from computers. The exact amount of resource granted would have (theoretically) been determined by the appropriate linked skills. These components could, in turn, be used to craft various items. I'm not sure exactly how it would be determined what a player character could build, but I know that there were certain perks or story threads mentioned in the design documents that referenced such things. Ultimately, though, players would have had access to several basic design schematics naturaly (perhaps determined by their skill ratings, or purchased/learned individually, maybe even requiring the player to reverse-engineer existing items).

I do recall specific mention in some of the old FOVB design documents of special projects. These bits and pieces of pre-War tech had never been finished, and a suitably skilled player could theoretically complete their research and design. Although most of these projects are only briefly mentioned, it did include things such as advanced energy pistols, advanced power fists, and advanced rail guns.

Just food for thought.

[Mathsorcerer]

Crafting doesn't interest me all that much. If it is included I would recommend making it limited--you can upgrade existing weapons or armor and *maybe* create a handful of unique items, but I wouldn't waste time developing a fully-implemented crafting system.

Remember: every neat gizmo built into a game detracts from the real meat-and-potatoes of what we really want, which is a good plot, more areas, and more things to do.

[SagaDC]

Crafting doesn't interest me all that much. If it is included I would recommend making it limited--you can upgrade existing weapons or armor and *maybe* create a handful of unique items, but I wouldn't waste time developing a fully-implemented crafting system.

Remember: every neat gizmo built into a game detracts from the real meat-and-potatoes of what we really want, which is a good plot, more areas, and more things to do.

I can understand where you're coming from, Mathsorcerer, but I would imagine that a properly implemented crafting system WOULD give more things to do. It might even provide the focus of new areas, such as a Mine or Junkyard that would otherwise serve as little more than backdrop. Quests could also theoretically revolve around procuring resources or crafting recipes (for higher end items, at any rate, I wouldn't reccomend quests involving blueprints for every item). Players would be given even more reason than normal to, for example, sift through the remnants of an old R&D facility as they searched for both components and schematics. If they decide that they don't want to bother with crafting, they can just as easily ignore these items or sell them for a quick profit.

In the first Wasteland game, they tenatively approached some of these concepts. There was a Metallurgy skill which, as far as I can tell, served only a single purpose. In the mines near Quartz, a team of Desert Rangers with sufficient Metallurgy skill could spot a silver vein, and use it as a theoretically infinite source of wealth given enough time and patience. This is a theme that could be revisited (the mining part, not the infinite wealth part) in Wasteland 2, allowing for sufficiently skilled players to locate potential sources of crafting materials (forests, junkyards, sixty-car traffic jams, abandoned nuclear reactors) with one or more potential uses for an enterprising team of Rangers (use or sell being chief among those uses).

[happy04]

With all the flaws in diablo 3, honestly, I think that their crafting system with artisans would be a very interesting and welcome addition to wasteland. It could potentially solve many typical RPG issues and crafting annoyances at once such as; Endgame devaluation of currency/items, lack of useful merchants endgame, atypical "quest hub" or "jobs board" location, hassle hauling crafting ingredients. Assuming from the vision document that water will be important, the Artisan could be able to cook semi gourmet foods and allow for the finer things in life to be brought to the wasteland.

Lets call the PC's artisan group "the caravan" not only for visual purposes but for a quick reference during this explanation. The caravan would be a mostly fixed location group of NPCs that each handle an individual part of the crafting process. Depending on how in-depth the process happens to be there could be an NPC for; item salvage/breakdown, storage/withdrawal of materials, investment/upgrading the caravan, the actual crafter, and the caravan master.

The Scav (salvager/breakdown) could have a twofold function. He could be assigned to search the surrounding area for a specific type of crafting material and add a certain number per day or per week to the caravan's stores. He can also breakdown items that can be turned into crafting materials. They would be directly deposited into the stash as scripts to prevent the extra bulk.

The Script Exchanger (deposit/withdraw function) could also have a twofold function. He would allow the PC to turn scripts into their respective items, and vice versa. He would also allow the PC to purchase or sell scripts and high end recipes for a lot more money than the items would actually be worth to buy directly. If he has a near unlimited supply and barters at a poor exchange rate for the PC this gives a good use of the endgame piles of cash.

The Caravan Driver (Leader/Upgrades) ** four functions. He allows for hiring guards, purchasing mules, and upgrading the individual NPC's wagons as well as adding new towns to the list that the caravan patrols. Adding guards protects the caravan on trips across the wastes. If the caravan is attacked it can lose supplies or a wagon or even an NPC. If a wagon or NPC is lost in a trip they would have to be replaced by the driver. Adding mules or later on engines to the wagons will increase the speed that the caravan moves from town to town when told by the PC, in the case of the Artisan you will be able to hire apprentices or purchase slaves. Once a town was discovered by the PC, the PC will be able to return to the driver to to add that town to their map with directions on how to get there. The driver will not always want to go to towns based on reports from the PC.

The Artisan (craftsman himself). Being very adept in not only science but repair and maintenance as well as ammunition fabrication with a passion in cooking on the side, the artisan deals directly with the PC or any other customer to provide their goods. He could have apprentices hired instead of mules to increase production capability or have people enslaved or purchased from local slave traders if the caravan is in a town with a slaver ring. Giving the Artisan money, or books, or items to experiment with can give him EXP to train in a certain field of expertise, eventually allowing the player to have their Artisan know all the recipes. The Artisan should ABSOLUTELY NOT be able to create the best items in the game, but he should be able to not only modify weapons and upgrade weapons, but create some weapons. Ammunition could be a more useful and reasonable use for the Artisan.

The Caravan Master shares some functions with the Caravan Driver; Moving the caravan and hiring NPCs. Although because the Caravan Master is a huge drunk, he is much more corrupt and easily bribed. He has less interest helping communities and traveling the wastes than he does simply making profit and settling down. The PC could bribe the Caravan Master to move to a town of the player's choice and because the caravan is a very profitable venture once they are there they won't move until bribed again. This allows the PC to set the caravan in a town that is currently being used as a quest hub. The caravan master really is an alcoholic, and because he drinks so much he doesn't bother carrying a large stock of alcohol across the wastes, instead he spends a lot of time in bars so he can inform the PC of easy to get quests in the local area.

A crafting system of this type would not only satisfy the "own your own business" type requests, but it would create an outlet for crafting, and a very functional "money sink" for endgame inflation. A caravan would not only fit in with a post apocalyptic world but it shows the world is on the way back to being civilized but not quite there yet. If the caravan travels with word of the PC it could let other towns know of his past exploits to make sense of a good/bad reputation flowing over from town to town.

Please give opinions on this type of system being in wasteland 2. It could also be extended to any other feature that makes sense to alleviate minor annoyances.

[happy04]

I can not emphasise enough that the crafting system, if present at all, should NOT allow for the production of the best items. If any items are produced from scratch they should not compete with high end high caliber rifles and machine guns or energy weapons.

[MinscAndBoo]

I would prefer crafting to be used for creating things like buildings or 'addon's for the ranger base. With a branching system, so you can't choose everything.

[[R]]

IMHO Arcanum had the best crafting system. From rummaging through trash for components or making batteries from lemons to stealing schematics from inventors workshop.
Crafting doesn't have to be combat oriented, you could craft small items that don't have immediate functionality or are simply informative for ex. a pocket watch.
Such system could be further expanded by deriving new items from known schematics(using skill checks) or reverse engineering items. Dismantling existing items for parts to avoid lugging junk around. Using different materials for crafting components as some are lighter or more durable.

Another crafting system I like is from Dark Cloud 2. You would gather ideas(with a camera) and later combine them together to make a schematic. Some of the schematics could then be further augmented with ideas found later in game.

Age of Decadence(demo) crafting is schematic+base material+optional refining technique.
FFXIV had very detailed crafting system(too complicated?) that was nevertheless bad especially when combined with inventory management that was meant for consoles. No batch crafting either.
Btw, Xenoblade didn't have crafting. Closest thing to it was refining crystals that you could fit into equipment slots.

Branching system doesn't make sense to me, if you have knowledge and resources why shouldn't you be able to build something?

If you can't craft best items whats the point in crafting at all? I always used crafting to have slightly more powerful equipment than looting could provide for that point in game(which is why raid gear in mmos pisses me off). High end crafting should of course be limited by resource availability and character skill. If you go and kill hidden optional ultimate boss I'd rather have something like perpetual energy cell to craft ultimate item with than direct drop of proton gatling gun of infinity +1. Though I suppose you could dismantle it for parts.

happy04's crafting system idea is pretty good but it would be more appealing to players that have minimal or no interest in crafting. I feel crafting should be done by pc as that opens a lot more dialogue and mission options. Basically what SagaDC said.

[GalGof]

some idea about craft skills. (maybe already was here, didn't read all posts)

as craft of item depends of use item skill, not only from craft skills

it's logic as if u know how to use pistol - u can make better pistol. so with others..

maybe even not armor craft, weapon craft, but some base craft skills (work with wood, metal, leather) and pistol craft depends from metal craft and light guns use. armor craft depends from leather/metal craft+light/heavy armor use.

or, maybe even as this is party game there could be more interesting system:
1st char have high craft skill, 2nd char expert in weapons (3rd singing to them during process )
when 1st craft pistol - he takes help from party members.
so not only 1 char skills used, but all party skills.
and there could be factor as how good one char can explain his skills to another, depends from intellect, talk skills and others..

or sniper with aimer near it will shot better. and depends from environment, maybe there is flag near target..
(similar can be used in other skills. group healing, group trading and so on..)

p.s. about repair.. if u can make item - u can fix it.

[chebur2013]

Go check out Arcanum of Steamwork and Magik Obscura released in 2001 and its fantastic crafting system. Man I loved that! Long before all those idiotic MMORPGS or whatever they are called tried to duplicate it in all their stupidity

[Tets]

in the games i played, i never liked crafting. running arround and collecting random stuff to make items you could also buy... thats no fun ... also, my inventory is always full combining some special items with a quest or story behind is good (car in fallout 2)

[Dominativus]

Since we will have a base that iirc we will be setting the defenses etc of, I feel that crafting makes sense as how else are we acquiring all the stuff for it as well as our gear. I would assume other people in the world scavenged a lot of stuff to survive before we got there, so looting/finding everything in working order just doesn't seem realistic. Rangers would also have crafting knowledge as i'm sure craftsman of all types survived and passed on their knowledge. We would be able to make weapons, armor, consumables, modifications, items for the base and other items.

For resources I think we should find stuff and be able to break stuff down for parts. We can also do the normal kill specific enemies for specific items and gather stuff from specific areas, but I also think resource gathering can be tied into questing as well.

What if we had to help a town next to an old junkyard to gain it's trust, which then opens up the ability for us to keep them protected and continue to help them in return for them providing us with resources which we need? They would randomly radio for assistance with raiders or that they need food/water/meds. You would have a specific amount if time to help them or the town could all die or be taken over, losing those resources.

What if while traveling you are told of/locate an old mine that was taken over by a group who enslaved the people mining it in order to make them mine the ore for their faction. The people want you to free them and protect them in return for them providing the Rangers ore. Just like the other town you would get radio calls for help as the other faction is trying to retake the mine, and if you don't help within the specific time limit the mine is retaken and you lose those resources.

That would make it more realistic as resources are hard to find so people will kill for them. Once you have access to the resources it could be a system of them automatically sending a specific amount per week or something. Or we could send an order over the radio for a specific resource they provide in a certain amount, which they send to us automatically but takes a specific amount of time for delivery. The amount of time for delivery varies due to distance from our base. That way we can do other stuff and not have to play mule between the resource point and our base.

[paultakeda]

Let me tell you how I really hated the part in AC3, a game about an ASSASSIN, where I was managing deliveries.

...

I can't even begin to describe the boredom I felt.

...

Nevermind.