Levels!

[Fuzi0n]

I HATE levels!!!

Wut?

With a skills and stats based games you gain by using them. If you use more strenght as an MG gunner, you get stronger. You use more intelligence and reflexes as a hacker you get smarter and faster. You learn more about hacking as a hacker so then you get more skilled at it, that's it. No need to parse around your precious stat and skill pts to be able to "play" the game. Your not playing the game when you do that, you're playing the game mechanics.

OMG no, please. NO. I hate this stupid system, same crap like in Skyrim. Swing your sword 50.000 times to become a deadly "super master swordsman of camelot". Jump 20.000 times to become "super agility master ninja"... That is just so lame.

You gain experience, move up a level and receive skill points. You then spend these skill points on the skill you would like to improve. This is a very simple system that works beautifully. It worked in Fallout, it worked in Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

Brian said he wants to make an old school RPG and that is what we will get. Thank goodness.

Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Levels are a fundamental mechanic of the RPG genre and they do an excellent job at representing player progression. There are deeper, more philosophical reasons why the level system became so popular in RPGs but I don't feel like getting into them here.

+1

[suz]

You gain experience, move up a level and receive skill points. You then spend these skill points on the skill you would like to improve. This is a very simple system that works beautifully. It worked in Fallout, it worked in Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

Yep, punching someone in the face suddenly makes you expert in plasma rifles, works beautifully

[deus]

You gain experience, move up a level and receive skill points. You then spend these skill points on the skill you would like to improve. This is a very simple system that works beautifully. It worked in Fallout, it worked in Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

Yep, punching someone in the face suddenly makes you expert in plasma rifles, works beautifully

It does actually.

[Kodine]

You gain experience, move up a level and receive skill points. You then spend these skill points on the skill you would like to improve. This is a very simple system that works beautifully. It worked in Fallout, it worked in Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

Yep, punching someone in the face suddenly makes you expert in plasma rifles, works beautifully

It is a necessary abstraction. At what point do you stop trying to go for realism and decide that good gameplay supersedes it? Level-based system offers a decent way to manage player's power growth without forcing them to go through poor gameplay. Perhaps when the lockpicking gameplay, healing gameplay, speech gameplay, etc is as fun as the combat gameplay, using levels will not reduce tedium, but as it stands this is not the case. Even if it were the case, you would still have to deal with a harder to balance and more easily exploited system (like use-based skill growth).

[Drool]

You gain experience, move up a level and receive skill points. You then spend these skill points on the skill you would like to improve. This is a very simple system that works beautifully. It worked in Fallout, it worked in Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

Meh. I still prefer the hybrid approach.

[Vaeliorin]

What's the difference between fireballing a tree and fireballing a goblin 100 feet away? People don't become marksmen by shooting people, they do it by shooting targets.

No, what was silly in Oblivion was becoming an expert battlemage by casting fireball on yourself.

The thing is, being an expert target shooter doesn't necessarily translate into being a competent marksmen in a combat situation. Trying to fireball the goblin presumably would cause him to become aware of your presence, so if you fail, or there are other goblins nearby, you've just gotten yourself into some trouble. If nothing else, if/when you fail you've just wasted some of your mana in a combat situation. Failing to successfully cast the spell at the tree costs you nothing.

[Color Blotch]

You gain experience, move up a level and receive skill points. You then spend these skill points on the skill you would like to improve. This is a very simple system that works beautifully. It worked in Fallout, it worked in Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

Yep, punching someone in the face suddenly makes you expert in plasma rifles, works beautifully

Certainly beats people jack jumping all the time everywhere they go, crouching repeatedly in a pond with waterbreathing to become a better alteration mage, and jamming themselves between a wall and a lesser rat to train heavy armor.

Definitely less broken as a game mechanic, and I wouldn't ever in my life consider the main protagonist and savior of the World jumping around like an idiot looking particularly realistic or helping immersion.

[suz]

Definitely less broken as a game mechanic, and I wouldn't ever in my life consider the main protagonist and savior of the World jumping around like an idiot looking particularly realistic or helping immersion.

player.setav acrobatics 100
player.setav heavyarmor 100
Makes about as much sense as jumping around. If the player wants to play on broken mechanics, let them, it's part of the game.

[Color Blotch]

Definitely less broken as a game mechanic, and I wouldn't ever in my life consider the main protagonist and savior of the World jumping around like an idiot looking particularly realistic or helping immersion.

player.setav acrobatics 100
player.setav heavyarmor 100
Makes about as much sense as jumping around. If the player wants to play on broken mechanics, let them, it's part of the game.

Absolutelly. But then you find out you need to make about 100000 of in game jumps to get to level 100 because developers had to protect the game balance from people jumping around and getting to level 100 too early, so now there's no other realistic way to train that skill other than jumping around all the time. Sure you can fix it with console, but that's where you know the system is broken.

Another thing is level scaling. The main reason why TES games have it is because there's no other way around. And that creates another lovely scenario when you can make moving around the map impossible for you since it's now filled with all the highest level creatures all because you mixed too many potions. Nothing is as destructive for an experience system as making level up hurt you and making player trying to NOT gain experience or be punished for it.

[Drool]

...so don't grind?

I mean, sure, you can break the system by jumping for hours in the town square or sneaking into a wall in the bar while you have lunch, but if you know that kind of excessive action breaks the game, don't do it. The scaling system discourages pointless grinding. I ran everywhere in Oblivion but managed to avoid having the game out-scale me by doing other stuff too, instead of just grinding endlessly.

[Mandemon]

If someone wants to grind until they break the system, let them. It's their choice. Doesn't mean you have to grind until game breaks.

If someone wants to prepare to fullest before leaving starting area, let them. Doesn't mean you have to.


Set up a game and rules. Then go and play. Every rule set can and will be broken, so it really doesn't matter. Skills or levels, someone will grind or find some other way to break it.

[deus]

The Metagame is what binds everything in an RPG, its the reason why we have a character system to begin with.

If the game lets you off the hook and allows you go and do whatever you want without any thoughts on planing or risks, then the system is going to be bland and uninteresting to begin with.

You can't acomodate different playstyles this way, someone is going to get the shaft.

[Color Blotch]

...so don't grind?

I mean, sure, you can break the system by jumping for hours in the town square or sneaking into a wall in the bar while you have lunch, but if you know that kind of excessive action breaks the game, don't do it. The scaling system discourages pointless grinding. I ran everywhere in Oblivion but managed to avoid having the game out-scale me by doing other stuff too, instead of just grinding endlessly.

It's rather "so don't level up". Literally, one of the best ways to play Oblivion is to just never press that "level up" button.

And again, as in case with acrobatics skill, the ONLY way for this skill to develop is grinding. There is no way you going to train that skill to any degree by just using jump sensibly. Another example - smithing in Skyrim. You get better as you make stuff. The problem is that you need to make thousands of items before you get yourself to the level when you can make something useful. Can somebody please suggest me a scenario where you don't grind and end up smithing thousands useless items? Or you can use alteration to improve your armor magically. The spell that is available to you in the beginning will drain most of your mana to increase your damage protection by whooping 7%. Is there a sensible reason why would you use it at this point in game other than to develop alteration skill?

The problem with such system isn't that it's exploitable. The problem is that it fails to perform its function even if it isn't. It creates broken motivations like "I shouldn't hit enemies with a sword anymore at this level, because I'll waste my stat points as I can't get anymore for strength"; or "I'm dodging the enemy blows too well, that's why my armor and restoration skills suck"; or "I should stop stockpiling healing potions, or there's going to be minotaurs all around me in no time".

There's no balance, no motivations, no rules of any kind. And if that's ok then why don't why just have a system where player gets to assign himself any number of skill points at any point in the game. I killed a dragon, I say I'm 3000 points better at archery now. In fact such a system would do a better job, since at least you can stop leveling yourself up when you know it's going to hurt you.

[Drool]

And again, as in case with acrobatics skill, the ONLY way for this skill to develop is grinding. There is no way you going to train that skill to any degree by just using jump sensibly.

My character with the 100 acrobatics achieved without grinding begs to differ.

[Color Blotch]

My character with the 100 acrobatics achieved without grinding begs to differ.

You have too much time on your hands.

[suz]

It's rather "so don't level up".

Each and every thing you listed against improve-by-doing is because Bethesda chose to go full retard on:
1) level scaling
2) level math.

You took one game that made abhorrent implementation and pick on it as the sole and only example and the only way to implement the system.

Implemented properly, a "Level" is an overall assessment of character's strength, giving minor bonuses.

This is how JA2 devs decided it should work. When you get a level, it's based on your cumulative experience giving you that "edge" over your opponent. All of them are minor bonuses, however you can't be an expert in explosives by reaching level 10, unless you actually do explosives.

[Mandemon]

I agree that leveling should make sense. I mean, how does me killing everyone in the town using mini-nuke and then going in using minigun somehow make me better at lock picking? Or hacking computers?

Point based leveling has it's problems, but so does "learn by doing". Since you most likely fail a lot early, you gain experience slowly, but once you manage pass certain threshold you can pretty much always succeed.

[Drool]

Once again, that's why I liked Wasteland's hybrid. Allowed for both while making sense. You gained levels via experience points. Your skills improved through use which had minimal effect on XP. You could buy up skills with skill points (if you put additional points into IQ at level) via a library, but the increasing costs made it a waste after 2 or 3 ranks.

Frankly, I'd be kind of surprised if they did a completely overhaul on that system.

[Mandemon]

Once again, that's why I liked Wasteland's hybrid. Allowed for both while making sense. You gained levels via experience points. Your skills improved through use which had minimal effect on XP. You could buy up skills with skill points (if you put additional points into IQ at level) via a library, but the increasing costs made it a waste after 2 or 3 ranks.

Frankly, I'd be kind of surprised if they did a completely overhaul on that system.

I hope not. Tweak, yes, but change? No. One of the most important things for RPG series to keep the core mechanics. Even Fallout 3 and New Vegas kept S.P.E.C.I.A.L, despite turning games into first person shooter-RPG hybrids. Skills still mattered, even if player had now more control over combat outcomes.

[Color Blotch]

You took one game that made abhorrent implementation and pick on it as the sole and only example and the only way to implement the system.

You have to admit that the example with punching and plasma rifle you used isn't quite fair either. If you pump your skill for something, 99 times out of hundred you do this because you actually use that skill and you want it to get better. So traditional system with xp spent of skills isn't anywhere near as irrational as your make it to appear.

Moreover, I find arguments like "it's more realistic and that's why it's better" to be rather bad. Whether game mechanic is good or bad should be first and foremost determined by mechanical reasons. I'd hate to play yet another game that's oh so realistic, but also such a bad game. So if you want to make a good case for "learn by doing" system, I encourage you to mention some of the mechanical advantages such a system provides. From my personal experience the only games that made decent use of it are those in which character development is not centric. It seems to be rather limiting in developing unique specializations and play styles.

Once again, that's why I liked Wasteland's hybrid. Allowed for both while making sense. You gained levels via experience points. Your skills improved through use which had minimal effect on XP. You could buy up skills with skill points (if you put additional points into IQ at level) via a library, but the increasing costs made it a waste after 2 or 3 ranks.

Frankly, I'd be kind of surprised if they did a completely overhaul on that system.

I suppose not enough other games implemented that hybrid for me to have a solid idea on what it's good for. I wonder what opinion Wasteland 2 team holds on it nowadays.