Procedural NPCs

[Drool]

Don't be a troll.

I wasn't trolling. I was asking honestly. All the information I gave was taken from context in the game. You assuming that I made it all up tells me you either A) didn't play the game, B) don't remember the game, or C) didn't pay any attention when playing the game.

I would have enjoyed Wasteland more if the non-plot NPCs had been procedurally generated instead of having to apply my own stories to them based on minimal clues in their environments.

They're not my stories. They're the game's stories. And frankly the game gives just as much information to those paying attention as it did when it attached a paragraph to them, like it did for Ace. It's not like Ace is plot critical or is given much more of a story anyway. He's a combat-trained employee of Faran Brygo looking for help.

Honestly, the characters with the least amount of information provided are Covenant (pretty much just Ace with better combat skills) and Dr. Mike Scott.

I've played the game all the way through probably 20 times now, and it would be refreshing to not know every pixel and line of code by heart on my 21st time through.

And I've played it hundreds of times over the past 24 years, and still find little things from time to time. My long conversation with Captain Patch in the Power Armor thread about the construction of Base Cochise vis a vis Sleeper One and Project Darwin involved delving into paragraphs I hadn't thought about in years. Wasteland is a very rich game if you take the time to look.

Why must the procedural NPCs be meat puppets? What if you found a totally randomized NPC in the Temple of Blood instead of Ralf? Instead of some bum with a knife, it's a girl with a pistol and a robe. Oh snap, I'll bet she's working undercover for the local police!

What does she add? How does getting a random character add anything except novelty. Why not make Ace a nebbish accountant? Oh snap, now the game's fun again!

The only difference is that it's new and interesting every time!

Novelty is not the same thing as interesting.

[nathanknaack]

Guys, you've got to stop shooting down every idea people post in these forums just because they weren't in Wasteland 1.

They're making Wasteland 2, not an updated Windows port of Wasteland 1. Like it or not, things are going to change.

The point of this forum is to generate new ideas that could make the sequel even better than the original.

Carry on.

[Drool]

Conversely, we don't need to accept every idea just because someone put it on the forum.

[nathanknaack]

Conversely, we don't need to accept every idea just because someone put it on the forum.

You don't need to comment, either.

Let's focus on being constructive. If you don't like the idea of procedural NPCs, just ignore it. If you're interested in the topic but think it has some kinks to work out, let's work them out.

[Drool]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was a discussion board, not an echo chamber. A thousand pardons.

[nathanknaack]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was a discussion board, not an echo chamber. A thousand pardons.

Now you're trolling.

[Drool]

Really? How? Trolling doesn't mean "disagrees with me". A discussion board needs to be more than people agreeing with each other. Trying to restrict a thread to only people who agree with the core concept defeats the point. I disagree with the core concept and have explained why. My contributions are no less legitimate than anyone else's.

[nathanknaack]

Aaaaaaanyway...

We mentioned the option of having starting skill templates in another thread, mainly for helping players create new characters quickly without having to worry about putting points in the wrong place when they start out.

I think something like this could help make procedural NPCs more believable and usable. Instead of just assigning numbers to attributes and skills, it would start with a template, stuff like "soldier", "diplomat", "thief", and "doctor." From there, it would allocate attribute and skill points with priorities weighted towards fulfilling those roles.

Thoughts?

[stonetoes]

Aaaaaaanyway...

We mentioned the option of having starting skill templates in another thread, mainly for helping players create new characters quickly without having to worry about putting points in the wrong place when they start out.

I think something like this could help make procedural NPCs more believable and usable. Instead of just assigning numbers to attributes and skills, it would start with a template, stuff like "soldier", "diplomat", "thief", and "doctor." From there, it would allocate attribute and skill points with priorities weighted towards fulfilling those roles.

Thoughts?

Having templates or weighted priorities could make companions more usable, as they will be more likely to fill a niche in your party. This will be especially important, as I mentioned, once the pre-written NPCs start dying off and you have to find replacements.

The downside is that having random assignments can make imagining backstories really fun. When my friends and I used to play pnp rpgs with random elements in character creation it would be really fun coming up with explanations for the results. It stopped you ending up with generic, one-dimensional characters just because that was mechanically superior. RPGs which mandated or encouraged additional languages, for instance, made you think about where the character might have travelled or worked, whether they were mixed race or from an ethnic minority.

Even if characters do follow templates I'd like to see a few "wildcards" thrown in to make things interesting and give them a bit of personality.

[nathanknaack]

And, with a theoretically unlimited amount of procedural NPCs in the game, you're freed up to do all sorts of cool stuff with the non-procedural, storyline NPCs.

For example, you can have the authored NPCs only join your party temporarily. An NPC might only stick around for one big mission, then leave the group. This would put a whole new spin on the classic MMO "escort" quest. Naturally, a temporary NPC wouldn't count against your party limit.

This would have never worked in the original Wasteland. Get in a few tragic battles and suddenly Covenant or Metal Maniac are dead and you're stuck trying to assault Base Cochise with Jackie and Felicia, or worse yet, a party with fewer than 7 characters!

[Jaysyn]

From the developer side, it's a nightmare

Randomly generated content is the worst thing that could happen in an RPG.. Including random dungeons (remember Oblivion?).

Oblivion? You mean that game that won multiple GotY awards & that I personally spent nearly 200 hours playing?

[krellen]

Oblivion? You mean that game that won multiple GotY awards & that I personally spent nearly 200 hours playing?

GOTY is a meaningless marketing ploy and the game you spent 200 hours playing I couldn't even play through for 200 seconds.

[hiptanaka]

I think this is a really bad idea. This kind of generated content can never be on par with designed/written content, and it would clash with the elaborate NPCs that have backstories, good dialog and feel connected with the world. You can already create 4 PCs of your own, so let's keep NPCs designed and firmly part of the world. That's my opinion.

[gautraudj]

You can already create 4 PCs of your own, so let's keep NPCs designed and firmly part of the world. That's my opinion.

If replayability is the concern, then I think PC character creation should offer plenty of new/different experiences... if it doesn't, then they are doing something wrong.

I never played Wasteland, but in FO 1&2 I felt my different character builds made multiple playthoughs quite rewarding. My super-smart charismatic young female played very different from my strong old soldier-type male.

I hope that party make-up will give the game plenty of replayability.

But, on topic: Drool and Krellen, you both seem experienced in Wasteland so I have a question. Do you think that giving authored NPCs slightly randomized stats/skills, or slightly a different skew, could be interesting? They still have completely handcrafted names/stories, except maybe a little better or worse on their traits/skills. Could that help change things up in multiple playthroughs? Or do you think PC creation is enough?

[krellen]

Drool and Krellen, you both seem experienced in Wasteland so I have a question. Do you think that giving authored NPCs slightly randomized stats/skills, or slightly a different skew, could be interesting?

Wasteland had pretty lightweight stories; the level of "story detail" in a character in Baldur's Gate isn't even in the same galaxy as what Wasteland had, so in the context of "the original Wasteland" this question doesn't really mean much; I'm not sure it would make much difference if Ralf could have one of an array of (Knife Fight | Brawling | Pugilism) instead of just Knife Fight (other than the fact that you'd probably really hope for the Brawling version.)

[nathanknaack]

I'm not sure it would make much difference if Ralf could have one of an array of (Knife Fight | Brawling | Pugilism) instead of just Knife Fight (other than the fact that you'd probably really hope for the Brawling version.)

When you say "not sure it would make much difference" are you talking about the power level of your party or your general experience in playing (and replaying) Wasteland?

[krellen]

I'm not sure it would make much difference if Ralf could have one of an array of (Knife Fight | Brawling | Pugilism) instead of just Knife Fight (other than the fact that you'd probably really hope for the Brawling version.)

When you say "not sure it would make much difference" are you talking about the power level of your party or your general experience in playing (and replaying) Wasteland?

Yes.

[nathanknaack]

This kind of generated content can never be on par with designed/written content

I totally agree. However, the point of procedural NPCs is not to replace authored NPCs.

it would clash with the elaborate NPCs that have backstories, good dialog and feel connected with the world.

Not only do I disagree that it would clash with authored NPCs, I think it would actually emphasize them even more. So you're a couple hours into the game and have run into two or three of these procedural NPCs. You hired one of them (Random Ralf) because he had some good combat skills, but other than that, they were all just random people.

Then you meet Storyline Steve, an authored NPC with a custom portrait and all kinds of unique dialog. Whoa, Storyline Steve has a new mission for me, one I can only undertake while he's in the group. Sweet!

let's keep NPCs designed and firmly part of the world.

Yes, the world needs authored NPCs to help drive the story and describe the setting. You don't think it would be neat if, in addition to those, you could also meet random people, no two of which would ever be the same (or the same on subsequent times playing the game)?

[nathanknaack]

I'm not sure it would make much difference if Ralf could have one of an array of (Knife Fight | Brawling | Pugilism) instead of just Knife Fight (other than the fact that you'd probably really hope for the Brawling version.)

When you say "not sure it would make much difference" are you talking about the power level of your party or your general experience in playing (and replaying) Wasteland?

Yes.

Well then, you've sure responded a lot to a thread exploring a feature you don't think would matter one way or another very much.

[LostSoul]

I don't necessarily think it's applicable to potential party members (save/load til you get one that doesn't suck or is the right combo for your team...so what does it really accomplish then?), and really NPCs that you can recruit but have pretty much no life or personality are kind of...a really bad path to walk down. You can't "procedurally" generate believable characters. They'll be pretty much 1 dimensional cardboard cut out "bland NPC template #123515" variety and that adds nothing to the game.

But for random encounters and such I could see it adding a nice bit of variety to combat, where the stuff you're going to be shooting at aren't really expected to have a lot of depth to them.