Don't submit this game to ESRB/PEGI/etc.!

[Woolfe]

To me, Picasso is nothing else but someone who painted bunch of meaningless pictures. It's not art.

You can have your own opinions, but his art had meaning whether you care to recognize it or not. Maybe you've already taken a course on modern art or read about it or whatever and still don't see any value in his art. That's possible. But if not, I highly encourage you to do so.

Personally, that's why I love modern art. Previous art forms just reflected the images they meant to express. Modern art adds meaning by presenting their images in interesting, critical ways.

Art is subjective. Some people like it, others don't. Some people see art in a lone piece of trash lying in a clean environment
others see it in a sunset.

I also am not a fan of picasso. But I appreciate the effect he had on the art world.

[Shaggy]

just think if jim morrison was censered

[raelwind]

For the ESRB/PEGI ratings, they are not mandatory (although, as said, some retailers will refuse to carry games that are not rated or have ratings considered "inapropriate" by said retailers), and they do not prevent anything from appearing in the game. The simply slap a rating on depending on what does appear in the game. The problem is with publishers/developpers aiming for a specific rating and then being restricted to what falls within this rating. (The usual example is games going for a Mature/16+ type rating and not wanting to fall into the Adults Only/18+ category that would have some (major) retailers refuse to carry the game). This is usually less of a problem for a niche market game (which, I believe InXile knows Wasteland 2 to be) and so I think refusing to have the game rated is a silly move. It's like refusing to look at your watch because you don't want to be told it's late at night. The question is whether or not you're willing to stay up late. And I firmly believe that the people at InXile have a pretty good idea for what they want to put in their game in terms of mature/adult content and I hope that being turned down by publishers so often will at least give them that much more incentive to just go with it freely and not self-censor to fit in a tidy little box on the evaluation board for the sake of it.

Furthermore, (I may be wrong about this, I am neither Australian nor a lawyer or a censor) I believe that submitting to the Classification Board is mandatory in Australia. Thank goodness they finally added an "R18+" in late 2011 that allows video games deemed too offensive for a "15+" rating to still be rated and released there.

[Fishos]

Another reason to leave it unrated: ESRB charges $4,000 for a rating (and another $4,000 per each time you submit again). You know how many sandwiches you can buy with $4,000??

I hate those guys. Their methods of ratings are absurd.
For example: Bare breasts = 13+ ... The word "fuck" used more than one time per 90 minutes = M ... Full frontal nudity = AO

Oh and my favorite: implied female orgasm means more restrictive rating than implied male orgasm. Anything that's considered against "family values" by the mob of America will get nailed. There was this really smart and tasteful comedy/drama movie (don't remember the title) about a lesbian teenage girl and how society fucks her over, it was actually a pretty cute movie, but of course ESRB gave it an M rating. Why? Because the main character is gay.

I mean, seriously? This is ridicules. Don't endorse this crap. Please, set example for other developers and movie makers and ban these stupid rating systems... don't pay them anything.

[Mandemon]

Uuh, no. According to wikipedia:

To obtain a rating for a game, a publisher sends the ESRB videotaped footage of the most graphic and extreme content found in the game. The publisher also fills out a questionnaire describing the game's content and pays a fee based on the game's development cost:

$800 fee for development costs under $250,000

$4,000 fee for development costs over $250,000

Here is another source:

http://www.1up.com/news/esrb-price-smaller-games-psp

ESRB official:
"ESRB has a reduced fee of $800 for games that have development costs under $250,000, which would likely apply to virtually all PSP Minis."

They originally reported that the price would be $2 500

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/09/psp-m ... b-ratings/

However, I am doubtful of accuracy of their info, since it comes from here:

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/428244-cos ... _1#2849493

And that thread is not exactly the most... reliable. No sources given.

However, this fee exist because someone needs review the game, check the code, make sure there isn't room for incidents like Hot Coffee Mod, etc. etc.

BTW, if we go Wikipedia numbers, the fee for Wasteland 2 will be $4 000. That is 0,0013% percent of the budget. Not very much, is it?

[Azriel]

Uuh, no. According to wikipedia:

To obtain a rating for a game, a publisher sends the ESRB videotaped footage of the most graphic and extreme content found in the game. The publisher also fills out a questionnaire describing the game's content and pays a fee based on the game's development cost:

$800 fee for development costs under $250,000

$4,000 fee for development costs over $250,000

Here is another source:

http://www.1up.com/news/esrb-price-smaller-games-psp

ESRB official:
"ESRB has a reduced fee of $800 for games that have development costs under $250,000, which would likely apply to virtually all PSP Minis."

They originally reported that the price would be $2 500

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/09/psp-m ... b-ratings/

However, I am doubtful of accuracy of their info, since it comes from here:

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/428244-cos ... _1#2849493

And that thread is not exactly the most... reliable. No sources given.

However, this fee exist because someone needs review the game, check the code, make sure there isn't room for incidents like Hot Coffee Mod, etc. etc.

BTW, if we go Wikipedia numbers, the fee for Wasteland 2 will be $4 000. That is 0,0013% percent of the budget. Not very much, is it?

I am pretty sure they don't check the code, they just look at the video of the violent games. Still, $1 is too much for that horrid group of protect the kid nannies. I say leave it unrated and don't waste time with the ESRB.

[lomifeh]

Another reason to leave it unrated: ESRB charges $4,000 for a rating (and another $4,000 per each time you submit again). You know how many sandwiches you can buy with $4,000??

I hate those guys. Their methods of ratings are absurd.
For example: Bare breasts = 13+ ... The word "fuck" used more than one time per 90 minutes = M ... Full frontal nudity = AO

Oh and my favorite: implied female orgasm means more restrictive rating than implied male orgasm. Anything that's considered against "family values" by the mob of America will get nailed. There was this really smart and tasteful comedy/drama movie (don't remember the title) about a lesbian teenage girl and how society fucks her over, it was actually a pretty cute movie, but of course ESRB gave it an M rating. Why? Because the main character is gay.

I mean, seriously? This is ridicules. Don't endorse this crap. Please, set example for other developers and movie makers and ban these stupid rating systems... don't pay them anything.

ESRB does not rate movies, nor have they ever. So what are you talking about?

[Woolfe]

Furthermore, (I may be wrong about this, I am neither Australian nor a lawyer or a censor) I believe that submitting to the Classification Board is mandatory in Australia. Thank goodness they finally added an "R18+" in late 2011 that allows video games deemed too offensive for a "15+" rating to still be rated and released there.

Yep, Mandatory classification in Australia, which is good and bad. Good in that most things are usually in the right classification. Bad in that with the lack of an R18+ some products that would have been put in R18+ were instead pushed through MA15+

There is a whole swag of issues around this, that take way too long to get into. But suffice to say political careers have changed as a result of this issue.

Oh and we don't quite have the R18+ for games yet. It still has to work its way through another couple of hoops, after which it will be brought into law in 2012, but then the States have to actually define it. Most will go for it though, as we have made most of the pollies realise that the voting public are gamers. (and we are force to go and vote in Aus, so sometimes a frivoulous matter will have a greater effect than you might think).

[Mandemon]

I am pretty sure they don't check the code, they just look at the video of the violent games. Still, $1 is too much for that horrid group of protect the kid nannies. I say leave it unrated and don't waste time with the ESRB.

What? How many times I have to say this: ESRB/PEGI are not mandatory and they do not censor games. They slap ratings on them, which are for benefit of the customer. Having labels which tell what game contains and who it is suitable exist for customer. It is not some secret collective group of 90 year old grannies who take money and slap random numbers on the game.

Also, here is the full Rating process:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_process.jsp

[raelwind]

Oh and we don't quite have the R18+ for games yet. It still has to work its way through another couple of hoops, after which it will be brought into law in 2012, but then the States have to actually define it. Most will go for it though, as we have made most of the pollies realise that the voting public are gamers. (and we are force to go and vote in Aus, so sometimes a frivoulous matter will have a greater effect than you might think).

Thanks I'd only taken a look at wikipedia which said an R18+ had been introduced at the end of 2011, I hadn't realized this only meant it had been introduced in the political process.

[Drool]

What? How many times I have to say this: ESRB/PEGI are not mandatory

Look at the post right above yours...

[Mandemon]

What? How many times I have to say this: ESRB/PEGI are not mandatory

Look at the post right above yours...

The one who assigns the ratings in Australia is not ESRB, but Australian Classification Board. There is a difference there. , One is set up by industry, one is government organization. Guess which one is which, win an imaginary cookie!

[cdoublejj]

this has been discussed in these forums couple of times before. i will pass the ball to Brother None but afaik he had written something like this: steam accepts unrated indie games. which is the main focus (digital distribution).

I am pretty sure they don't check the code, they just look at the video of the violent games. Still, $1 is too much for that horrid group of protect the kid nannies. I say leave it unrated and don't waste time with the ESRB.

What? How many times I have to say this: ESRB/PEGI are not mandatory and they do not censor games. They slap ratings on them, which are for benefit of the customer. Having labels which tell what game contains and who it is suitable exist for customer. It is not some secret collective group of 90 year old grannies who take money and slap random numbers on the game.

Also, here is the full Rating process:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_process.jsp

Good news

Some retailers don't accept unrated games. Besides, ESRB/PEGI might slap on their rating, but it doesn't mean shit in itself. Someone might still buy it or sell it.

Censorship is done by the makers, not by ESRB/PEGI. ESRB/PEGI simply use their guidelines(which can be seen online) and assign a rating they feel is closest. Doesn't mean that the developer must change the game.

Also, art is horrible justification. If you make something to make money, it's not art. Wasteland 2 maybe be artistic, but art is will be not. You want to see "art" game? Go play The Void or The Path. BioWare tried to hide behind whole "art" idea after ME3 and it made them no good in eyes of the customers.

I would say i don't give a crap and to use what ever excuse needed however considering all classic RPGs are being canned in to call of duty first person shooters, in way W2 is art, the art of table top gaming and novels/writing.

I also vote for an unrated/uncensored game.

[g_rivas]

If you make something to make money, it's not art.

Now that is just ridiculous. Art is meant for people. Nearly every "masterpiece of classic art" is a commission of some sorts.

What about rating? I don't really care that much, as far as developers don't put it in the leading role.

[Mandemon]

*facepalm*

What I consider art is irrelevant to discussion. Can we please drop it? I am not even going to try and explain it.

Rating matters only if developer has specific group in mind. Otherwise, Inxile if free to make game anyway they like. ESRB might slap on it M or AO, but in the end, that where the power of ESRB ends. Only requirement after getting the rating is that the rating is visible on developer website/on packing.

If WL2 somehow becomes AO game(and if you look around the forums, it seems people demand such rating just for sake of it), it doesn't stop Inxile to sell it. Retailers might refuse such product, due to PR reasons, which translates into less marketing.

[Azriel]

*facepalm*

What I consider art is irrelevant to discussion. Can we please drop it? I am not even going to try and explain it.

Rating matters only if developer has specific group in mind. Otherwise, Inxile if free to make game anyway they like. ESRB might slap on it M or AO, but in the end, that where the power of ESRB ends. Only requirement after getting the rating is that the rating is visible on developer website/on packing.

If WL2 somehow becomes AO game(and if you look around the forums, it seems people demand such rating just for sake of it), it doesn't stop Inxile to sell it. Retailers might refuse such product, due to PR reasons, which translates into less marketing.

Besides the physical copy from kickstarter, aren't they going totally digital distribution? So, the only retailers are steam, gog, and a few others. From the hype of the game, I really doubt they would turn down the chance to sell this game. Besides, as mentioned earlier, indie games don't need ratings(I think), so there is no reason to get one.

[DRTJR]

I say it should get an earbud raiting and I bet it will get an m rating. Since most stores will not sell a game with out one. ergo if this game sells well beyond us then it will show that there is a demand in the market for more games lIke wasteland.

[lomifeh]

Besides the physical copy from kickstarter, aren't they going totally digital distribution? So, the only retailers are steam, gog, and a few others. From the hype of the game, I really doubt they would turn down the chance to sell this game. Besides, as mentioned earlier, indie games don't need ratings(I think), so there is no reason to get one.

There are all sorts of issues with selling AO games for distributors among them if they can do it in all countries. I am unsure why some people want an AO rating so badly?

[Mandemon]

Besides the physical copy from kickstarter, aren't they going totally digital distribution? So, the only retailers are steam, gog, and a few others. From the hype of the game, I really doubt they would turn down the chance to sell this game. Besides, as mentioned earlier, indie games don't need ratings(I think), so there is no reason to get one.

There are all sorts of issues with selling AO games for distributors among them if they can do it in all countries. I am unsure why some people want an AO rating so badly?

Because they want to stick to The Man, or that's the feeling I got.

[uber]

Might as well title this:

Don't make nearly as much money/cash etc.!

I'd be a little shocked to see inExile shun the regular store shelves. It's no doubt true that digital is the future. If this discussion was happening 6 years from now, I'd agree it wouldn't be a big deal to skip regular retail. Raise your hand if you would like to see Fargo and company rolling in cash? Who cares if they make it "dumbed down" for retail as long as we can get the full on version for backers right?

Lets say this was a movie, those of us who want an uncensored version would want "our" copy to be just that. I wouldn't begrudge inExile for making an R rated version for the giant ATM known as the general public.

My vote is give the retail guys an M rated version, sell the unrated online.