Unigine CEO offers game engine to Wasteland 2 for free

[Brother None]

Can a simple user interface like that be ported/implemented into a more complicated engine like Unigine?

If I wanted to rebuild Wasteland now from the ground up, I'd sooner do it on something like Macromedia Flash, but sure, I don't see why Unigine wouldn't be able to do it. It's not ideal, though. That's not to say modders will be able to do it, though, because where inXile will have source access to fully customize the engine, modders will be dependent on tools.

[Ekaros]

Graphical engine is only sub-part of game engine.

Basicly engine just tells graphical engine what to draw and where to draw it, graphical engine just turns this to information to GPU in most efficient way it can. Different engines are optimised for different things, but this is more of viewpoint and not game mechanics. FPS and RTS have different areas showing afterall.

I believe they need to write their own engine for gameplay stuff anyway, there isn't too many ready made ones out there now are there?

[alexlovesinxile]

Would be interesting to find out how much Oil Rush cost to produce.

[easy82]

This is great news! Has it been already decided which engine they will use?

Anyway, I'd really love to see WL2 powered by the Unigine engine! It's a great game engine, and it's absolutely suitable for creating WL2, so you need not to worry.

Maybe I can help you to understand this "3D engine" topic a little bit as I'm a programmer, and I have experience with some 3D engines!

When you're exploring a new engine, don't get fooled by the nice screenshots. Assets in the game can look poor or great depending on the artists, and while I can fully understand someone prefer an engine to an other by the looks of it -- that's just plain silly. Also the camera angle does not matter at all, when you're in 3D (FPS, TPS, isometric, etc.), so the game can be designed to allow the players to change between top-down or isometric view. That's the beauty of it. Turn-based, paused, slow-motion, real-time, from the engine perspective, does not matter, so again, don't worry about it.

From our viewpoint this engine would be great, because it is

#1 Cross-platform (Windows, Linux, Mac)
#2 Scalable (big and complex game world)
#3 Highly scriptable (BF mentioned this as a neccessarity)
#4 Bundled with tools (faster to make the game, and also good for modding)
...And it also has great potential at graphics, it has built-in physics, pathfinding, network, GUI, etc.

[ButchinMelancholy]

@easy82: Have you already worked with this engine?

[easy82]

@easy82: Have you already worked with this engine?

Not yet, but I'd like to. I've been looking at this engine from time to time for years by now. (But it's waaay too expensive for small dev teams! ) There was a point in time when I think it was on par with the Unreal Engine, but now UE does look more mature, especially its toolchain. On the other hand, UE does not work on Linux, so right now it does not fit the WL2 goals.

But what is the other engine?

[Disharmonic]

@easy82: Have you already worked with this engine?

But what is the other engine?

My guess would be Unity as version 3.5 will have Google Native Client support afaik and it's very versatile with a large community behind it. i guess IDtech 4 might also be an option, although i'm not sure if Bethesda wants to license ID engines to 3rd parties anymore and it would probably need some adapting to fit WL2s needs so i think that's unlikely.

[deus]

Could someone explain exactly how this engine would be useful for a turn-based game? And I don't mean "real time with pause." pauses aren't "turns." Chess is a turn-based game. I fail to see how a turn based game will benefit from "real time with pause." Or, is there some way to use this graphics engine to give you a real turn based game?

Realtime RENDERING! Not gameplay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xxjcU9x-nAw#t=106s

[Brigand231]

I think folks are getting improperly fixated on relative jargon. When you break it down to the basic concept, even real life is turn based in which turns last a microsecond and everyone acts out their turns simultaneously. A game of tennis is just as turn based as a game of chess, you react to what your opponent does. Your opponent moves a piece to end their turn or hits a ball to end their turn. "Turn" is an incredibly flexible and relative term. We could argue that this forum is turn based despite being in real time.

In my opinion, the essence of a turn based game as we've experience from Bryan is one in which NPC's are not acting unless it is a direct reaction to the player - this is easily accomplished in a "real time" environment by restricting NPC AI to freeze (I didn't say pause) until it comes within draw distance of the player. At that point the player and NPC's can act according to their action points or set action or whatever until all are out of actions and then go at it again.

Fallout is a perfect example of a game engine that renders and acts in real time until VATS is activated at which point the real time pauses and the game switches to a turn based system powered by action points.

[deus]

I think folks are getting improperly fixated on relative jargon. When you break it down to the basic concept, even real life is turn based in which turns last a microsecond and everyone acts out their turns simultaneously. A game of tennis is just as turn based as a game of chess, you react to what your opponent does. Your opponent moves a piece to end their turn or hits a ball to end their turn. "Turn" is an incredibly flexible and relative term. We could argue that this forum is turn based despite being in real time.

In my opinion, the essence of a turn based game as we've experience from Bryan is one in which NPC's are not acting unless it is a direct reaction to the player - this is easily accomplished in a "real time" environment by restricting NPC AI to freeze (I didn't say pause) until it comes within draw distance of the player. At that point the player and NPC's can act according to their action points or set action or whatever until all are out of actions and then go at it again.

Fallout is a perfect example of a game engine that renders and acts in real time until VATS is activated at which point the real time pauses and the game switches to a turn based system powered by action points.

And Initiative goes WHERE?!

Action Points in F3 is bloody useless because it offers no real constraints, when you used up your action points you just run around until its recharged...or you just skip the entire thing and blast them to smithereens.

Turnbased Gameplay is NOT a relative concept, once you invoke its name its about the mechanics and rules which governs what the actors can do.

Your attempt to blur the lines fails. because the moment the PC or NPC can circumvent such mechanics(such as moving freely whenever he feels like it) it ceases to be turn based.

[ButchinMelancholy]

I think folks are getting improperly fixated on relative jargon. When you break it down to the basic concept, even real life is turn based in which turns last a microsecond and everyone acts out their turns simultaneously. A game of tennis is just as turn based as a game of chess, you react to what your opponent does. Your opponent moves a piece to end their turn or hits a ball to end their turn.

Hum, I think a simultaneous and continuous movement is what we call real-time, while turn-based is the concept that only one character is able or allowed to act when everyone else is "frozen". As obviously, in reality, we can't stop the time, everything is actually real-time and our necessary substantial reaction time doesn't mean that we are "frozen" in this microsecond during which we are not able to act (just a "scale" issue), so turn-based is just a concept.
There's a nuance between having to wait for your turn to act, and acting in reaction of something, because this time you take the decisions and do things in real-time while the others can do their own things too. It's dynamic.

We could argue that this forum is turn based despite being in real time.

No, this forum is based on delayed answers, so it is indeed turn-based for sure.


But otherwise, of course turn-based systems are not related to the game engine's nature because everything is pretty much real-time anyway. As you said, it's just a matter of configuring the AI and world actions and reactions and the way they work. Then, for the combat system, it's just a feature to set, like bullet time or other gameplay features for any kind of game.

[dmazz]

The other engine being considered is the C4 engine who's next version will support linux. A linux version wasn't on the release roadmap and so I believe it was announced for Wasteland 2 to consider the engine. http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php/Official_Roadmap

Unity engine with native client remains an option but will require working under OpenGL ES, which is the pda/phone/tablet subset of OpenGL, which has a few graphical limitations. And Unity is already limited graphically as it is. In addition the Unity engine costs around 30K for the source version. Which costs at least 30 times more than Unigine and C4.

[torque]

The other engine being considered is the C4 engine who's next version will support linux. A linux version wasn't on the release roadmap and so I believe it was announced for Wasteland 2 to consider the engine. http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php/Official_Roadmap

Linux support isn't on that roadmap. Was it removed or was the feature announced elsewhere?


EDIT: ah, found it! http://www.terathon.com/forums/viewtopi ... ilit=linux

Very good news, looks like I'll have to evaluate it now.

[xusnorris]

Have you seen the FAQ?
http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/faq.php

Does the C4 Engine run on Intel GPUs?
No. (Are you serious?)

Unigine at least supports Intel HD 3000 , without Intel video card support a lot of laptops are out...

[torque]

Have you seen the FAQ?
http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/faq.php

Does the C4 Engine run on Intel GPUs?
No. (Are you serious?)

Unigine at least supports Intel HD 3000 , without Intel video card support a lot of laptops are out...

Do they actually filter those out, or is it merely "unspported" (on your own risk)?

[xusnorris]

Have you seen the FAQ?
http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/faq.php

Does the C4 Engine run on Intel GPUs?
No. (Are you serious?)

Unigine at least supports Intel HD 3000 , without Intel video card support a lot of laptops are out...

Do they actually filter those out, or is it merely "unspported" (on your own risk)?

I don't known, it's the first time I read about C4, maybe one of the people in the forum can try the demo and tell us

[xusnorris]

Well, more info
http://www.terathon.com/wiki/index.php/ ... patibility

Intel Graphics Hardware

Note: Intel graphics chips are a joke and are not suitable for playing 3D games. The drivers provided by Intel are also very unstable. You should not expect any manner of reasonable performance or rendering correctness when running C4 on one of these. No Intel GPU is supported by the C4 Engine.

Hardware Category


Graphics Chips


Compatibility with C4


Notes

Intel GMA X4000
Series


Intel GMA X4500


Not supported


Intel GMA X3000
Series


Intel GMA X3000
Intel GMA X3100
Intel GMA X3500


Not supported


Intel GMA 900
Series and Earlier


Intel GMA 900/950


Not supported

[Brigand231]

Your attempt to blur the lines fails. because the moment the PC or NPC can circumvent such mechanics(such as moving freely whenever he feels like it) it ceases to be turn based.

I'm here for a good faith discussion, not an argument. Using words like "fail" in such a manner implies that we are opposed when my intent is only to offer another perspective and explanation that supports the working model. I agree my illustration was flimsy at best, but I believe I turned the conversation in a constructive direction that will hopefully have us working together to find a better answer. I don't see that as failure.

It was requested that we try to stay away from the concept of pausing the game and instead talk about turn based - I don't understand how "waiting for input from the player before the computer takes its turn" is not pausing and this is what I'm hoping we can clarify.

Although a joke, the forum can be seen as turn-based. I don't see a mechanic for initiative here, but it was offered in a way that makes it seem like initiative is a prerequisite for something to be turn based. I seem to recall in Wasteland that even though the game was "inactive" in a sense while the player was entering their choices, enemies could be killed as they were taking their finals and still damaging players - Doesn't that kind of ignore initiative?

[Lucius]

Do they actually filter those out, or is it merely "unspported" (on your own risk)?

From posts after yours it looks like intel is just not supported. That quote doesn't even mention intel HD or the newer intel HD 2000/3000 chipsets. Considering this engine will run on an NVIDIA 6600 I'm certain it would run on a newer laptop with integrated graphics easily.

It was requested that we try to stay away from the concept of pausing the game and instead talk about turn based - I don't understand how "waiting for input from the player before the computer takes its turn" is not pausing and this is what I'm hoping we can clarify.

I think, brigand, the thing your not getting that defines turn based is it needs to be a two way street. Using your FO3 example with VATS, you pause the game, take your turn, then the computer gets his turn. However, during the computer's turn you still have control and you can take another turn!

[excession]

To be honest, I much rather see 2D.

Why?

Because it dramatically shortens the time between art creation and implementation, requires the art to pass through fewer sets of hands, makes iteration easier, and as a result helps to reduce the re-use of assets. Constant re-use of assets due to the time-to-implement associated with 3D can really detract from the atmosphere of a game.

On a purely developmental level, it makes a lot of sense. Take a look at how 2D artwork, combined with the early implementation of functional 'stand-ins', allowed the Crimson Steam Pirates art team to spend time iterating designs and easily gauging their quality. They could import their art personally and see it immediately in-game, rather than waiting for modelers or scripters to act as intermediaries. This meant that level designers, scripters, coders and other team members could continue work, while the art team could devote their time to rapidly reworking assets until they were just 'right'.

For more on why 2D is a particularly good choice when working on a tight budget, or requiring a lot of content, see this fascinating reference for the above: http://goo.gl/Vluta
Brief disclaimer: I'm in no way suggesting that Wasteland be top-down like CSP. That should be obvious. I'm talking about their development approach.

As for the problem of asset re-use, take a look at Fallout 3.
I know it's an FPS, and that 3D encompasses more than first person - that's nothing to do with my point.
Every TV in the wasteland was the same brand, had the same shape, and was the same size. Look further and you find that every plate was the same, every filing cabinet the same color, etc. The same doors were cobbled together with the same sheets of scrap, and used over and over again - amazingly constructed by different people using exactly identical pieces of roof cladding.

Now compare that to something like Torment, in which there was much less asset re-use. While you did still see some items used more than once, there was far, far greater variety in the world furnishings, set pieces, and bric-a-brac.

Ultimately when you have a small budget like Wasteland, 3D requires a trade-off. Either you:
1) Decrease the variety of art assets in the game world or,
2)Decrease the number of art assets in the game world
Essentially you have less content with more detail, or more content with less detail. Using 2D the ratio is potentially kinder to both - especially where money is tight.

I'm sure that Fargo, InXile, and Chris will make the right choice based upon their small pool of resources... But I really hope that we don't end up with a copy/paste world just because people expect 3D.