Ranger origin story

[Mandemon]

I am going to agree with Patch here, I don't buy whole "See mushroom cloud, abandon all former military discipline and commandeer prison". Especially when they clearly tough they were only surviving humans. So most logical thing is to... send prisoners to irritated desert to die slow and painful death?

Drool, soldiers are humans, yes. But boot camp, heck entire time they are in the army, they are trained in one thing:

When in doubt, consult military protocol.

Essentially, whenever the shit hits the fan, they are to act like soldiers and obey the military protocol unless it's suicidal and places civilians to risk. In this case, prisoners are civilians.

Ranger origins really need more fleshing out. How long was between commandeering the prison and making first contacts? Since they are already called "citizen of the Ranger Center", they have already adopted name "Ranger". When did this happen? Am I to accept that military people dropped their identity as US Army Engineers and adopted a name of law keepers? Why would they do that? They didn't know there were others, so why pick such name? It would make more sense if unit was called Desert Rangers or prison was named after Texas/Arizona Rangers and name came from that. Not to mention I would expect there to be several generation having passed already, so that this new identity would have become integral part of their society. Just seeing "Hey look, other survived! We are going to act like Rangers! Screw being Army Engineers, we now law keepers!"

[RoboRevolution]

Suggesting that every single one of the men in the chain-of-command panicked and UNANIMOUSLY decided to do something monumentally stupid.... You could just as easily convince me that you personally know a dolphin that speaks flawless French.

Except it wasn't stupid. Against the rules, maybe. But even by your own estimates, it'd take eleven days of continuous executions of prisoners. Eleven days those personnel could be trying to find survivors or prepare the place for a lasting garrison. Eleven days for prisoners to plan and try something given the chance, which considering their looming, inevitable deaths, they probably will. Eleven days you have to feed hundreds of people bound to die your limited (because starving them would be 'cruel and unusual' punishment. Eleven days that you have to share the prison with the prisoners.

Or you could just drop them in the desert.

The fog of war describes how often, military decisions must be made in a vacuum of information. Is the chain of command still functioning? Unable to contact any of them, and knowing there's been a nuclear attack, chances are there isn't. If you release the prisoners into the desert will some of them live, and somehow manage to navigate toward civilization? Maybe. Is there civilization left? Maybe. Would they be able to threaten them if they do exist, and they do find them? Maybe. If the command structure has survived, and would they find out what you did? Maybe. Would they want to put you up for court-marital? Maybe. Would they so if they found out about your extra-judicial killings? Maybe.

But you do know some certainties, there has been a nuclear exchange. You have several hundred of your own men, including their families, that need a place to ride out the disaster, now. You have limited resources to feed them with, and you don't want to share them with the prisoners in any capacity, because you have no idea when or if you'll be able to find them. So you leave them to die in the desert, and hope for the best.

[Stiffkittin]

The History background is specifically what I am questioning.

Having read through the thread I appreciate that you've mostly moved on to different subjects but I thought I'd throw in my two cents nonetheless.

As you've pointed out the history is very vague with time spans. For me it just seemed logical to lean towards the most likely scenario; that the evolution from the Army personnel and civilians into the Desert Rangers was a very long process.

"Shortly after the nuclear attack began, the Engineers, seeking shelter, took over the federal prison ..." Within the first few days.

"Shortly" is unspecific, particularly in the context of a history covering 100 years. "Within the first few days" is not at all explicit in the text. However I agree, this seems most likely.

"As the weeks passed, they invited the nearby survivalist communities to join them..." Within a matter of weeks.

"As the weeks passed" does not equal "within a matter of weeks". All it means is that something happened progressively with intervals measured in weeks instead of months. The first contact with a surviving community may have happened fairly early, with various others trickling in as news spread or scouts were sent out and located others. The final outposts could still have been turning up months later and this statement would still be completely true. This also seems the most likely way it would have played out.

"But as time nurtured trust, this settlement -- which came to be known as Ranger Center" That's the transition point, when they start to formally call their community "Ranger Center". Communities in general do NOT like to change their names, or "rebrand" themselves. At least not communities that have been thinking of themselves as "We are ______" for any length of time. "Ranger Center" does not, would not, be applied until such time as the Rangers already exist. And the group would not become "Rangers" until they stop thinking of themselves as being US Army Corps of Engineers. *Snip*

You're assuming a precise "transition point" which is never alluded to. In fact "came to be known as Ranger Center" only states this happened over a period of time and the way it is phrased doesn't tell us when this change in identity occurred. For all we know from the text it happened only in the last 20 years or so, which is certainly the way I imagined it.

Later mentions of the prison as Ranger Center are just a literary conceit. We, as the reader, now know that this is the final name of the place. Also, phrases like "The citizens of Ranger Center, after first believing that they were the only ones who survived the nuclear maelstrom ..." are generic statements of mood and morale covering hundreds of people over an unspecified period (Note: even "at first" in a hundred-year history could mean several years to a decade or more. There's no way to know). Clearly it can't reflect the viewpoint of every single person. In fact I'd posit, almost through lack of precision, leadership is excluded; that would be an assumption on my part though. At the most, all it states is the general feeling in the community and doesn't define the actions and thought-process of the command structure.

I completely agree that pure Army changing it's identity and mandate to randomly take on the role of heroic law enforcers is pretty hard to believe. However, in the context of a Nuclear Holocaust, of isolation and the collapse of civilization, combined with the ever-increasing number of non-military personnel this eventuality seems perfectly plausible to me. That over the course of many years, the military establishment would be watered down or modified to adapt to these extraordinary circumstances and to manage their budding community. Note, I have no direct experience with any military so I appreciate that for ex-military or aficionados this may be difficult to swallow.

The whole issue of prisoner's being ejected/released never sat right with me though. Originally I just attributed it to some bad shit that must have happened in-between that was never elaborated on. To be fair, the entire situation which may have lasted weeks for all we know was summed up in just a few sentences so, who knows?

I have a possible explanation for it now but it is purely speculative: The Wasteland timeline takes place in a fictional future from the time the game was made. In this future, the already tense Cold War between the USA and the Soviet Union has escalated to unprecedented heights. Now, practically the whole world has split into fearful, aggressive factions. With freaking orbital weapons platforms in space. Who knows how this would affect society at large, civil liberties and military conduct? We think things are becoming extreme now after 3 wars in the Middle East and 9/11. This future could be a heck of a lot more dystopian than we realize. I mean it was a maximum security prison devoted to death row prisoners. Does this actually happen in the States right now? So my thinking was that perhaps, with everyone so paranoid, all sorts of exceptional measures or "in the eventuality of" procedures might have been put in place. Including sacrificing 'undesirables' in the pursuit of re-establishing societal order after just such an event. I guess I'm saying that with such a catastrophe, occurring on that scale, having been proven highly unlikely in the first place, it seems ill-advised to judge everything else on our real-world point of view.

[CaptainPatch]

Suggesting that every single one of the men in the chain-of-command panicked and UNANIMOUSLY decided to do something monumentally stupid.... You could just as easily convince me that you personally know a dolphin that speaks flawless French.

Except it wasn't stupid.

Au contrere. You mean to say that _you_ could not think of how to keep control the situation? It's a prison populated by ONLY Death Row inmates = Maximum Security. To keep control, all you have to do is initiate Lock Down. Interact with the prisoners ONE at a time. Half-squads allow constant 6-to-1 odds. But that's if you plan to execute ALL of them. Foolish idea, all things considered.

Just because nukes go off and communication is cut off doesn't mean "The War is over!" And further, "We are the ONLY ones left!" Who knows what is happening beyond the limit of our awareness? What would _you_ do? What the Army would do is "deploy scouts" -- and then _wait_ for their reports before committing to irreversible decisions as much as possible.

The fog of war describes how often, military decisions must be made in a vacuum of information.

The operative word there is "must". Given their situation, just what MUST be done right now?

Is the chain of command still functioning?

We don't know. Think it might be a good idea to try to make contact with any other bases or units in the area?

Unable to contact any of them, and knowing there's been a nuclear attack, chances are there isn't.

You really don't understand the military mindset, do you? The Pentagon actually believes a nuclear confrontation is "winnable", and that military discipline is what will hold together the survivors. Units are to contain the situation and hold tight until communication is reestablished.

If you release the prisoners into the desert will some of them live, and somehow manage to navigate toward civilization? Maybe.

And then that "maybe" is enough reason to NOT do it. Would you risk throwing a live grenade into a playground in the middle of the night, just because there is "probably" no one there? If there is _any_ risk that can be avoided, you do NOT take that risk.

Is there civilization left? Maybe.

In their shoes, what would _you_ think? Not "what might you possibly conclude?" Would _you_ think, "OMG, every other person on the face of the planet is dead!" You have concrete evidence that not _everyone_ was killed. You and yours are still very much alive. Why not others elsewhere that you simply can't communicate right now? And considering the pervasiveness of the military, some of those other survivors _will_ be military. And what might they most likely be doing? Why, trying to reach out to others the same as you, of course.

Would they be able to threaten them if they do exist, and they do find them? Maybe.
Say those others that get threatened, beaten, killed were people you loved and cared about. Would you want someone else in your position to decide to take an _unnecessary_ risk that would endanger your loved ones? Then why would you potentially and needlessly put others in risk?

If the command structure has survived, and would they find out what you did? Maybe.

Probable outcome if that "maybe" turns into a "yes": court martial. Worst case possibility: execution. Still want to risk that "maybe" when there is no _need_ to do so?

Would they want to put you up for court-marital? Maybe.

See above.

Would they do so if they found out about your extra-judicial killings? Maybe.

Oh, there's no "maybe" about that one. If your higher-ups learn that YOU had the prisoners executed on your own authority, there _would_ most definitely be a court martial.

But you do know some certainties, there has been a nuclear exchange. You have several hundred of your own men, including their families,

Only 120 (normal strength) - 160 (over-strength), and pointedly NO families. (You do NOT have families tagging along during operations or while on maneuvers.) [Sad to say, but the closest family members _might_ have been staying at motels back in Tucson. Otherwise, married personnel generally have their families living on or near their normal military base of operations -- and all of those would have been primary targets.]

...that need a place to ride out the disaster, now. You have limited resources to feed them with, and you don't want to share them with the prisoners in any capacity, because you have no idea when or if you'll be able to find them. So you leave them to die in the desert, and hope for the best.

Don't forget that you are Engineers. "A place to stay" could be a simple job of using the skills and materials you already have to build a bivouac. But since there's this perfectly good modern prison handy, staying there _does_ simplify things. But refusing to maintain the prisoners with supplies that have _already_ been allocated to them by the Federal government -- _your_ ultimate "boss" -- would be hasty. And may very well be construed as Grand Theft.

As I've said repeatedly, in the early stages of the scenario, they would NOT have concluded "EVERYONE else is dead!" They're operating in a Communication void -- for now. And an understandable Communication void at that. ("All I'm still getting is static, sir. The ionosphere just has too many charged particles for a signal to punch through. It's going to be awhile before that settles down. And all the telephone lines are dead. I don't know if that's breaks in the line, or if there's just no one operating the equipment.")

It would be several days before scouts reported back to indicate the condition of other military assets in the region. _In hindsight_, we can see they were on their own. But for them, there, at that time, they wouldn't know that until they made the effort to go and see what's what.

[Mandemon]

I actually find it interesting how quickly the Rangers would conclude that they were the only ones left and abandon UMCJ. Military loses contacts between units all the time, usually there are fixed quickly. However, from what it reads in the manual and in game, it seems that as soon as mushroom clouds rose Engineers said "Fuck Uncle Sam, everyone for himself" and set prisoners loose.

I mean, I would expect them to wait a month or two, to wait for EMP effect to subside and communications to be even attempted to be re-established before concluding "Well fuck, we are the only ones out there".

Really, whole Ranger origins story seems like the unit gave up as soon as the shit hit the fan, abandoning the military protocol as soon as possible.

[CaptainPatch]

I have a possible explanation for it now but it is purely speculative: The Wasteland timeline takes place in a fictional future from the time the game was made. In this future, the already tense Cold War between the USA and the Soviet Union has escalated to unprecedented heights. Now, practically the whole world has split into fearful, aggressive factions. With freaking orbital weapons platforms in space. Who knows how this would affect society at large, civil liberties and military conduct? We think things are becoming extreme now after 3 wars in the Middle East and 9/11. This future could be a heck of a lot more dystopian than we realize. I mean it was a maximum security prison devoted to death row prisoners. Does this actually happen in the States right now? So my thinking was that perhaps, with everyone so paranoid, all sorts of exceptional measures or "in the eventuality of" procedures might have been put in place. Including sacrificing 'undesirables' in the pursuit of re-establishing societal order after just such an event. I guess I'm saying that with such a catastrophe, occurring on that scale, having been proven highly unlikely in the first place, it seems ill-advised to judge everything else on our real-world point of view.

This is a fascinating line of speculation! What if Martial Law had already been declared, prior to the nukes starting to fall? Say an escalating Police State developing over the last decade before KABOOM! Authorities seeing Commies behind every bush. Texas' excessive execution rate being mimicked by all of the other States. The prison was serving as a central hub for prisoners that are all nearing the end of the accelerated appeals process with the next step to be final execution of sentence. Maximum Security is necessary because as prisoners see execution being inevitable and _soon_ develop a "What do I have to lose?" attitude.

With this, it would be inevitable that quite a few condemned prisoners very possibly be innocent, but had been sentenced by judges with a "Better safe than sorry" attitude. Maybe troublesome political dissidents, outraged by the loss of personal freedoms and rights because of "National Security" considerations have been hustled through the system ASAP. In short, not ALL of the condemned prisoners were hardened criminals worthy of execution.

Now, look at the Engineer company: low level, and not exactly "hardcore" warriors. "We _build_ things and leave the killing to the professionals." In short, there is a distinct possibility that instead of the usual, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" attitude of most combat units, this unit could have officers that are noticeably more humane.

Definitely not until they had been out of communication for several months, but eventually, having clearly established the Wasteland perimeter, the CO could have done his homework. "_These_ prisoners probably will pose no problem in the Aftermath." Those _few_ may be kicked loose as the CO evaluated that they pose little threat and may serve as productive citizens during the Reconstruction. _Some_ of those may even have been given the opportunity to sign on as Civilian Auxiliaries. HERE is the opportunity for the CO to make a bad decision by misreading some of the prisoners. With the help of just one or two of the released convicts serving with the unit to stage a Great Escape, with nearly all of the convicts making a break for freedom.

This would turn the dynamics of the situation on its head. Instead of our supposed Good Guy ancestors callously trying to execute prisoners with death-by-environment, the decision to go into the desert was made by the prisoners. _Their_ choice. If some/many of them die as a result, it was a fate that they brought down on themselves.

[Bungle]

It is all quite simple. A Wizard did it.

[Woolfe]

Maybe it was the Warden that kicked the prisoners out.

The Engineers turned up afterward.

Couple of other things. First I don't care how high and mighty the UMCJ is. The last time someone slaughtered hundreds of individuals and dumped them into mass graves, they were war criminals.
I am pretty sure the US society hasn't gone so far downhill that the systematic slaughter of several hundred (even death row) prisoners would be considered "ok".
Sure dumping them into the desert isn't much better, but at least they have a chance no matter how small it is.
Second, I am pretty sure if you as a commander ordered your troops to systematically slaughter a group of (even death row) prisoners, some of your troops would object.

As Drool said, these are some pretty unique circumstances. Maybe your Sargents were actually the ones who suggested freeing them.

You got the leader of a group of army engineers. Knows a shedload about Army Engineers and how to command them. Fuckall about dealing with a prisoner population however. He speaks privately to his sarge who has been doing this sort of shit for years(and incidentally was involved in the uncovering of mass graves in some godforsaken area of the world). Sarge says, "technically we gotta kill em all", "But shit be fucked up, no comms from HQ, we are unable to send recon due to the explosions, we are for all intents and purposes on our own for the next forseeable future". "I say let em go, and let god sort them out".

[CaptainPatch]

You got the leader of a group of army engineers. Knows a shedload about Army Engineers and how to command them. Fuckall about dealing with a prisoner population however. He speaks privately to his sarge who has been doing this sort of shit for years(and incidentally was involved in the uncovering of mass graves in some godforsaken area of the world). Sarge says, "technically we gotta kill em all", "But shit be fucked up, no comms from HQ, we are unable to send recon due to the explosions, we are for all intents and purposes on our own for the next forseeable future". "I say let em go, and let god sort them out".

Hmm. Got me thinking....
Nukes start going off on the horizon. Warden and guards decide to run home to be with their families, abandoning the prison. Thinking, "Hell, they're only _condemned_ prisoners after all," they leave the prisoners in Lock Down.

_A couple days later_, the Engineers arrive and discover several hundred starving people. Immediate reaction is "Get those people out of there and get some food into them!" Lock Down gets lifted and there's a stampede to the kitchens. Chaos. The Engineers don't have a clue about what to do with hundreds of famished people squabbling over food and settling old scores. So the Engineers pull back, hoping things will settle down. With no guards and plenty of food and water accessible, the prisoners start to grab what they can and bolt for the exit. With no clear orders or idea of what the Correct Thing to do should be, the CO has the company stand well back. Stampede of prisoners to Anywhere But Here.

_Later_, the CO discovers those were ALL condemned prisoners. Oops.

Figure some of the prisoners were smart enough to brave the desert and peacefully returned to their cells. Just to sort things out later and keep an eye on them, the CO may very well have attached them to the unit as Civilian Auxiliaries. After a lengthy "sentence" of hard labor, they eventually become the first "enlistees" into whatever it is this refugee Army command is destined to become. May even become a point of pride for them. Sort of like the Australian "transportees".

[Stiffkittin]

This would turn the dynamics of the situation on its head. Instead of our supposed Good Guy ancestors callously trying to execute prisoners with death-by-environment, the decision to go into the desert was made by the prisoners. _Their_ choice. If some/many of them die as a result, it was a fate that they brought down on themselves.

Or, in this freaky-scary political climate, they could simply have been given the hardline imperative: that in the case of all-out thermonuclear conflict and/or the collapse of the nation's infrastructure to prioritize fortifying and defending military command using any means necessary. This could have included sending out a call to all surviving 'isolationists' to fold-in and contribute to the established base or take their chances and ejecting the useless 'undesirable' prison population who would have only served as a security risk and a critical drain on resources.

The prisoners could always be rounded up later, if order was established. If not, then a few hundred dangerous criminals is hardly the priority when measured against the greater destruction of society and everything one holds dear.

Maybe it was the Warden that kicked the prisoners out.

The Engineers turned up afterward.

Couple of other things. First I don't care how high and mighty the UMCJ is. The last time someone slaughtered hundreds of individuals and dumped them into mass graves, they were war criminals.
I am pretty sure the US society hasn't gone so far downhill that the systematic slaughter of several hundred (even death row) prisoners would be considered "ok".
Sure dumping them into the desert isn't much better, but at least they have a chance no matter how small it is.
Second, I am pretty sure if you as a commander ordered your troops to systematically slaughter a group of (even death row) prisoners, some of your troops would object.

I have to agree with Woolfe here. Regardless of their obligations, systematically executing hundreds of people under the sort of conditions we're talking about is some bad-ass demoralizing, dehumanizing shit. If I were a commander I would be extremely careful about asking my relatively small number of men (who I will certainly need in the days/weeks to come) to perform this kind of act of brutality.

Honestly, it wouldn't matter how well I was trained. If I were asked to butcher dozens of my own countrymen while society collapsed around me, my friends and family perhaps ashes, I would seriously consider whether I really wanted to follow that order.

[Woolfe]

<Workable solution for why, SNIP>
May even become a point of pride for them. Sort of like the Australian "transportees".

See plenty of reasons why this all could of happened. We don't need a locked down explanation for everything.

In my world the Army Engineers let the go, because they chose to give them a chance, however faint it may be, rather than killing them. They then came to regret that later.

Maybe it was my convict ancestory that makes me believe that


PS techncially I have no convict ancestory. We looked, and there may be one arm of the family that was decended from the convicts, but unfortunately record keeping got a bit funny in spots so no way to tell for 100%.

[CaptainPatch]

PS techncially I have no convict ancestory. We looked, and there may be one arm of the family that was decended from the convicts, but unfortunately record keeping got a bit funny in spots so no way to tell for 100%.

Do Aussies have something similar to the Mayflower Society? (Membership restricted to people that trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower, the ship that brought the Pilgrims to North America.)

[Drool]

Military loses contacts between units all the time, usually there are fixed quickly.

Yeahbut...

When a unit loses its contact with HQ, it's not because HQ is possibly an irradiated crater. Bombs didn't fall in the specific area Wasteland takes place, but it has to be assumed that the engineers knew that a nuclear exchange was happening; they could probably see at least one mushroom cloud. When they're unable to contact anyone (the history mentions they thought they were the only survivors) it's only reasonable to assume they figured everyone else in the chain of command was dead. Contact couldn't be fixed because the people they'd be contacting were dead.

What's the proper military protocol for when everyone else in the chain of command is dead?

[Woolfe]

PS techncially I have no convict ancestory. We looked, and there may be one arm of the family that was decended from the convicts, but unfortunately record keeping got a bit funny in spots so no way to tell for 100%.

Do Aussies have something similar to the Mayflower Society? (Membership restricted to people that trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower, the ship that brought the Pilgrims to North America.)

I'm not aware of anything.... Certainly nothing large enough that the general populace are aware of it. A quick google didn't find anything either.

it was more curiousity on my families part, Mum was doing the family tree and all. (We have a very distinctive(and amusing) last name, pretty much anyone with it is related to us somehow)

[CaptainPatch]

When they're unable to contact anyone (the history mentions they thought they were the only survivors) it's only reasonable to assume they figured everyone else in the chain of command was dead. Contact couldn't be fixed because the people they'd be contacting were dead.

What's the proper military protocol for when everyone else in the chain of command is dead?

Could there be the teeniest, tiniest smidgen of a possibility that maybe, just maybe the developers got it wrong? Maybe because (I'm pointedly guessing here) none of them had any first-hand experience with the military or the military mindset? Do you think that if they perceive that there was a flaw in their logic back then, that they just maybe take this opportunity to rewrite that History to make it more plausible? I certainly hope they do.

[Woolfe]

When they're unable to contact anyone (the history mentions they thought they were the only survivors) it's only reasonable to assume they figured everyone else in the chain of command was dead. Contact couldn't be fixed because the people they'd be contacting were dead.

What's the proper military protocol for when everyone else in the chain of command is dead?

Could there be the teeniest, tiniest smidgen of a possibility that maybe, just maybe the developers got it wrong? Maybe because (I'm pointedly guessing here) none of them had any first-hand experience with the military or the military mindset? Do you think that if they perceive that there was a flaw in their logic back then, that they just maybe take this opportunity to rewrite that History to make it more plausible? I certainly hope they do.

Well yes....

But why would they bother. If they leave it intentionally vague, we will all fill it in the way we want

[CaptainPatch]

But why would they bother. If they leave it intentionally vague, we will all fill it in the way we want

Oh, I wouldn't mind if some things are left vague. Just so long as what remains is plausible without pre-supposing some radical "IF".

[Woolfe]

But why would they bother. If they leave it intentionally vague, we will all fill it in the way we want

Oh, I wouldn't mind if some things are left vague. Just so long as what remains is plausible without pre-supposing some radical "IF".

Its a pretty extreme situation, I think the boundaries of plausible are certainly broad.

I don't disagree with you, but I am giving them a fair bit of leeway, being that they were a small company, with a miniscule budget, in an industry that made not a lot of money, at a time when the internet wasn't even commonplace. Much harder and more expensive to check a lot of this stuff.

[Quarex]

It has already been mentioned by two other people, but robots. There are robots, sentient killer robots running around the Wasteland, where there are also skinless people who wander around and attack passersby, and fantastical laser weapons, and a cult based around worshiping VISA cards, and your big concern is that the United States Corps of Engineers would not decide to call themselves Rangers if the world had demonstrably ended.

CaptainPatch, I have seen you be very reasonable in other threads, and I think you are a smart person, but your entire purpose in this thread seems to be demanding ultra-realism from a game that has only a thin veneer of realism in the first place.

[Mandemon]

It has already been mentioned by two other people, but robots. There are robots, sentient killer robots running around the Wasteland, where there are also skinless people who wander around and attack passersby, and fantastical laser weapons, and a cult based around worshiping VISA cards, and your big concern is that the United States Corps of Engineers would not decide to call themselves Rangers if the world had demonstrably ended.

CaptainPatch, I have seen you be very reasonable in other threads, and I think you are a smart person, but your entire purpose in this thread seems to be demanding ultra-realism from a game that has only a thin veneer of realism in the first place.

Less realism, more explanation. Ranger origin story, as it is, is very vague and leaves a lot to imagination. I agree with him that either timetable needs fixing to we need to learn more details, otherwise whole story runs in contradiction with military protocols, you things that are hammered into each and every soldier?