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CaptainPatch wrote:Suggesting that every single one of the men in the chain-of-command panicked and UNANIMOUSLY decided to do something monumentally stupid.... You could just as easily convince me that you personally know a dolphin that speaks flawless French.
CaptainPatch wrote:The History background is specifically what I am questioning.
CaptainPatch wrote:"Shortly after the nuclear attack began, the Engineers, seeking shelter, took over the federal prison ..." Within the first few days.
CaptainPatch wrote:"As the weeks passed, they invited the nearby survivalist communities to join them..." Within a matter of weeks.
CaptainPatch wrote:"But as time nurtured trust, this settlement -- which came to be known as Ranger Center" That's the transition point, when they start to formally call their community "Ranger Center". Communities in general do NOT like to change their names, or "rebrand" themselves. At least not communities that have been thinking of themselves as "We are ______" for any length of time. "Ranger Center" does not, would not, be applied until such time as the Rangers already exist. And the group would not become "Rangers" until they stop thinking of themselves as being US Army Corps of Engineers. *Snip*
RoboRevolution wrote:CaptainPatch wrote:Suggesting that every single one of the men in the chain-of-command panicked and UNANIMOUSLY decided to do something monumentally stupid.... You could just as easily convince me that you personally know a dolphin that speaks flawless French.
Except it wasn't stupid.
RoboRevolution wrote:The fog of war describes how often, military decisions must be made in a vacuum of information.
RoboRevolution wrote:Is the chain of command still functioning?
RoboRevolution wrote:Unable to contact any of them, and knowing there's been a nuclear attack, chances are there isn't.
RoboRevolution wrote:If you release the prisoners into the desert will some of them live, and somehow manage to navigate toward civilization? Maybe.
RoboRevolution wrote:Is there civilization left? Maybe.
RoboRevolution wrote:Would they be able to threaten them if they do exist, and they do find them? Maybe.
Say those others that get threatened, beaten, killed were people you loved and cared about. Would you want someone else in your position to decide to take an _unnecessary_ risk that would endanger your loved ones? Then why would you potentially and needlessly put others in risk?RoboRevolution wrote:If the command structure has survived, and would they find out what you did? Maybe.
Probable outcome if that "maybe" turns into a "yes": court martial. Worst case possibility: execution. Still want to risk that "maybe" when there is no _need_ to do so?RoboRevolution wrote:Would they want to put you up for court-marital? Maybe.
See above.RoboRevolution wrote: Would they do so if they found out about your extra-judicial killings? Maybe.
Oh, there's no "maybe" about that one. If your higher-ups learn that YOU had the prisoners executed on your own authority, there _would_ most definitely be a court martial.RoboRevolution wrote:But you do know some certainties, there has been a nuclear exchange. You have several hundred of your own men, including their families,
Only 120 (normal strength) - 160 (over-strength), and pointedly NO families. (You do NOT have families tagging along during operations or while on maneuvers.) [Sad to say, but the closest family members _might_ have been staying at motels back in Tucson. Otherwise, married personnel generally have their families living on or near their normal military base of operations -- and all of those would have been primary targets.]RoboRevolution wrote:...that need a place to ride out the disaster, now. You have limited resources to feed them with, and you don't want to share them with the prisoners in any capacity, because you have no idea when or if you'll be able to find them. So you leave them to die in the desert, and hope for the best.
Stiffkittin wrote:I have a possible explanation for it now but it is purely speculative: The Wasteland timeline takes place in a fictional future from the time the game was made. In this future, the already tense Cold War between the USA and the Soviet Union has escalated to unprecedented heights. Now, practically the whole world has split into fearful, aggressive factions. With freaking orbital weapons platforms in space. Who knows how this would affect society at large, civil liberties and military conduct? We think things are becoming extreme now after 3 wars in the Middle East and 9/11. This future could be a heck of a lot more dystopian than we realize. I mean it was a maximum security prison devoted to death row prisoners. Does this actually happen in the States right now? So my thinking was that perhaps, with everyone so paranoid, all sorts of exceptional measures or "in the eventuality of" procedures might have been put in place. Including sacrificing 'undesirables' in the pursuit of re-establishing societal order after just such an event. I guess I'm saying that with such a catastrophe, occurring on that scale, having been proven highly unlikely in the first place, it seems ill-advised to judge everything else on our real-world point of view.
Woolfe wrote:You got the leader of a group of army engineers. Knows a shedload about Army Engineers and how to command them. Fuckall about dealing with a prisoner population however. He speaks privately to his sarge who has been doing this sort of shit for years(and incidentally was involved in the uncovering of mass graves in some godforsaken area of the world). Sarge says, "technically we gotta kill em all", "But shit be fucked up, no comms from HQ, we are unable to send recon due to the explosions, we are for all intents and purposes on our own for the next forseeable future". "I say let em go, and let god sort them out".
CaptainPatch wrote:This would turn the dynamics of the situation on its head. Instead of our supposed Good Guy ancestors callously trying to execute prisoners with death-by-environment, the decision to go into the desert was made by the prisoners. _Their_ choice. If some/many of them die as a result, it was a fate that they brought down on themselves.
Woolfe wrote:Maybe it was the Warden that kicked the prisoners out.
The Engineers turned up afterward.
Couple of other things. First I don't care how high and mighty the UMCJ is. The last time someone slaughtered hundreds of individuals and dumped them into mass graves, they were war criminals.
I am pretty sure the US society hasn't gone so far downhill that the systematic slaughter of several hundred (even death row) prisoners would be considered "ok".
Sure dumping them into the desert isn't much better, but at least they have a chance no matter how small it is.
Second, I am pretty sure if you as a commander ordered your troops to systematically slaughter a group of (even death row) prisoners, some of your troops would object.
CaptainPatch wrote:<Workable solution for why, SNIP>
May even become a point of pride for them. Sort of like the Australian "transportees".
Woolfe wrote:PS techncially I have no convict ancestory. We looked, and there may be one arm of the family that was decended from the convicts, but unfortunately record keeping got a bit funny in spots so no way to tell for 100%.
Mandemon wrote:Military loses contacts between units all the time, usually there are fixed quickly.
CaptainPatch wrote:Woolfe wrote:PS techncially I have no convict ancestory. We looked, and there may be one arm of the family that was decended from the convicts, but unfortunately record keeping got a bit funny in spots so no way to tell for 100%.
Do Aussies have something similar to the Mayflower Society? (Membership restricted to people that trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower, the ship that brought the Pilgrims to North America.)
Drool wrote: When they're unable to contact anyone (the history mentions they thought they were the only survivors) it's only reasonable to assume they figured everyone else in the chain of command was dead. Contact couldn't be fixed because the people they'd be contacting were dead.
What's the proper military protocol for when everyone else in the chain of command is dead?
CaptainPatch wrote:Drool wrote: When they're unable to contact anyone (the history mentions they thought they were the only survivors) it's only reasonable to assume they figured everyone else in the chain of command was dead. Contact couldn't be fixed because the people they'd be contacting were dead.
What's the proper military protocol for when everyone else in the chain of command is dead?
Could there be the teeniest, tiniest smidgen of a possibility that maybe, just maybe the developers got it wrong? Maybe because (I'm pointedly guessing here) none of them had any first-hand experience with the military or the military mindset? Do you think that if they perceive that there was a flaw in their logic back then, that they just maybe take this opportunity to rewrite that History to make it more plausible? I certainly hope they do.
Woolfe wrote:But why would they bother. If they leave it intentionally vague, we will all fill it in the way we want
CaptainPatch wrote:Woolfe wrote:But why would they bother. If they leave it intentionally vague, we will all fill it in the way we want
Oh, I wouldn't mind if some things are left vague. Just so long as what remains is plausible without pre-supposing some radical "IF".
Quarex wrote:It has already been mentioned by two other people, but robots. There are robots, sentient killer robots running around the Wasteland, where there are also skinless people who wander around and attack passersby, and fantastical laser weapons, and a cult based around worshiping VISA cards, and your big concern is that the United States Corps of Engineers would not decide to call themselves Rangers if the world had demonstrably ended.
CaptainPatch, I have seen you be very reasonable in other threads, and I think you are a smart person, but your entire purpose in this thread seems to be demanding ultra-realism from a game that has only a thin veneer of realism in the first place.
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