WL2 geography

[CaptainPatch]

Thus far, we know that the game will be set "West of the Wasteland." That means West of a line drawn from Las Vegas, NV to Needles, CA to the CA/AZ/MEX border intersection near Blythe, CA (which is due West of Quartzite (Quartz), AZ. Assuming that the coastal cities got hammered severely during the Apocalypse, what might have survived runs from Mexacali, Mexico to El Centro, CA to the Salton Sea to Joshua Tree National Park -- possibly as far West as Palm Springs, but 29 Palms, Barstow, and Victorville North of there would have all been hammered -- NE to Mojave National Preserve, then NW to Death Valley National Park. West of Death Valley is a like of some HUGE parks that run from SSE to NNW: Inyo National Forest, Kings Canyon National Park, Sierra National Forest, Yosemite National Park, and several more stretching northward all the way to the OR border. [I swear, it looks like _half_ of eastern CA is all parks. I wonder if they all caught fire from all the cinders blown inland from the coastal firestorm.]

The question then is, "Just how far North will we be able to wander?" If we figure Ranger Center (near Yuma) is our "yardstick", then Yosemite will be our northern border of play. That would put us between the San Francisco Bay area and Reno, both of which would have been hammered.

Anyone else have a likely speculation on the area of play?

[Woolfe]

May well come down to the budget. Brian already suggested that extra funds would go into making the world bigger and more interesting.

2 Ways to do that. You put more into a smaller area, or you have the same amount in a larger area.

Either could be fun. You could also add difficult paths to different areas so that only the dedicated/powerful can pass.

I'd love to see some good sized cities around to play in. With or Without large radiated crater....

[Sxerks]

A Map and linked locations of the original area: Map info

[CaptainPatch]

A Map and linked locations of the original area: Map info

C = Ranger Center I believe, which is almost on top of Yuma -- which should have caught a MIRV, but we'll say that ABMs took it out, just to explain why RC wasn't buried in fallout.

Pretty much EVERYTHING on a line from El Cajon to Riverside _should_ be glow-in-the-dark because there are a string of military installations all along that line. Even near misses would suffice to create a "wall" of radioactive devastation. Victorville is a "maybe" because it has significant industrialization (because of which, air quality there sucks, Big Time). Lancaster itself wouldn't draw fire, but overshoots and fallout from the firestorm further West and South would most likely have rendered it uninhabitable.

Nearly everything North of Lancaster to Sequoia National Forest, and then angle NNW along the line of National Parks would most likely not have been primary targets. All of which is "West of the Wasteland".

[Sxerks]

No, C is Quartz. Go hereto read where all the location are and then go to the google link on that page to see them.

The Ranger Center is south of Tucson. Look at the red dots.

[CaptainPatch]

No, C is Quartz. Go hereto read where all the location are and then go to the google link on that page to see them.

The Ranger Center is south of Tucson. Look at the red dots.

I stand corrected. Tucson is an even bigger primary target than Yuma. Furthermore, if Tucson did NOT get nuked, its sheer size would have been undoubtedly the BIGGEST influence on the Recovery and the growth of Ranger Center. It would have also left several military installations intact, which _would_ have become the Engineers upper chain-of-command.

LOTS of jumping through hoops to rationalize an independent Ranger Center if Tucson survived intact.

[Woolfe]

No, C is Quartz. Go hereto read where all the location are and then go to the google link on that page to see them.

The Ranger Center is south of Tucson. Look at the red dots.

I stand corrected. Tucson is an even bigger primary target than Yuma. Furthermore, if Tucson did NOT get nuked, its sheer size would have been undoubtedly the BIGGEST influence on the Recovery and the growth of Ranger Center. It would have also left several military installations intact, which _would_ have become the Engineers upper chain-of-command.

LOTS of jumping through hoops to rationalize an independent Ranger Center if Tucson survived intact.

We don't know all the details. Maybe those military bases are no longer there.

Presumably Tucson was nuked. Don't forget comms are not down, they are gone. All electronics are pretty much fried. I would assume the Rangers holed up in the Prison. Maybe managed to get a radio working. Got nothing. Maybe got a transmitter working. Got nothing. Scouts headed Tucson never returned. Best decision, sit back and wait out the Nuclear Fallout. 18 months to 3 years later. Supplies an issue. Still no comms. Scouts sent out. Find other survivor communities. Start working with them. First priority survival. Second finding chain of command. Keep up with comms, nothing. Nearby military bases in radiated areas, explains why no contact. Others empty abandoned? What happened there. No comms. Monsters turning up. Prison survivors turning up. Lots of stuff to keep us busy. More years pass. No ones left, surely we would have heard something by now, surely someone would have replied. Generations pass, the Hero's of the story leave the Ranger Centre to search the landscape.

Or maybe just maybe, they did a bit of study at the time. Just enough to create the game, but not enough to avoid really big potentially factual issues when the Pedantic ones(and I include me in that comment) start picking it apart. Jeez give them a break.

[CaptainPatch]

All electronics are pretty much fried.

The EMP blast from a ground strike (which is what have hit Tucson in order to maximize damage to Davis-Monthan AFB) has a range of ten miles. If Ranger Center is within ten miles of the blast, they've got bigger problems than EMP effects.

I would assume the Rangers holed up in the Prison. Maybe managed to get a radio working. Got nothing. Maybe got a transmitter working. Got nothing. Scouts headed Tucson never returned.

Radio interference is likely to remain pretty heavy until most of the fallout has settled and/or winds "clear a path". If the scouts don't return, SOP is to dispatch another team with orders to "Be extra-careful!" [chuckle. In WW2 there was an expression that went, "A good scout is a dead scout." The military can be so cynical at times.]

Best decision, sit back and wait out the Nuclear Fallout. 18 months to 3 years later.

Now is a safe time to start thinking, "We may be the only Organized unit left." Actually, I would start wondering along about 3-6 months later instead of 18. I would for sure try to define where the "hard" borders are. (Those being where terrain and radiation make further passage in that direction impossible.)

Supplies an issue.

That would be my #1 concern. The MREs ran out quite awhile ago. Making agricultural fields -- in a desert no less -- productive again requires some serious labor even with functional heavy equipment. Then there's the entire growth cycle of the crops before fresh food becomes available again. Scavenging for canned goods would be a major priority for at least a year.

Still no comms. Scouts sent out. Find other survivor communities. Start working with them. First priority survival. Second finding chain of command.

By that time, the attitude would be "Let _them_ find us." Keep Communications running regular shifts, just in case. Aside from that, the objective is to survive as an independent command and _maintain order_.

Others empty abandoned? What happened there?

A mystery that demands some kind explanation. Whatever happened to them might happen to us. Need to find out what happened to them so we can make the necessary preparations to make it _doesn't_ happen to us.

No comms. Monsters turning up.

Bam! Bam! Bam! "I thought --" Brrrp! "-- this kind of shit --" Kaboom! "--only happened in movies!" Arrgh-urk.

Prison survivors turning up. Lots of stuff to keep us busy. More years pass. No one's left, surely we would have heard something by now, surely someone would have replied. Generations pass,

And THAT is where I figure the conversion point occurs; when the CO dies and the rest of the original officers have died or retired (as best as one can in the Wasteland). Remaining military personnel rotate over into a community militia, which for whatever reason calls itself the "Desert Rangers".

...the Hero's of the story leave the Ranger Centre to search the landscape.

Actually, it's not simply "search the landscape": "Your party,...,have been assigned to investigate a series of disturbances in the desert." Considering their low Level at the beginning, this mission is most likely what passes for Advanced Training. "Go there, identify the problem, then fix it. Keep in touch!" If it starts to sound like they're losing control of the situation, call them back and send someone more competent. If they _don't_ need help, then they're "keepers".

Or maybe just maybe, they did a bit of study at the time. Just enough to create the game, but not enough to avoid really big potentially factual issues when the Pedantic ones(and I include me in that comment) start picking it apart. Jeez give them a break.

Oh, no doubt, much/most of what they designed is solid. But some mistakes were made. Now is their opportunity to fix some of those mistakes. It's what I would do in their shoes. [Look at me! I'm roleplaying! ]

[Drool]

Prison survivors turning up. Lots of stuff to keep us busy. More years pass. No one's left, surely we would have heard something by now, surely someone would have replied. Generations pass,

And THAT is where I figure the conversion point occurs

Well, the game's set somewhere around 70 years after the bombs fell. Also, they're known as Rangers as far away as Vegas and have some sort of reputation throughout the territory. So the name change is probably at least 20 years old. Personally, I would put it closer to 20 years after the war, so 2018ish. It, of course, depends on the age of the CO, the complacency of the civilians in the center, and how sure they are of the devastation. If a scout came back with, "Tuscon's glow can be seen from a mile away in the daytime, sir," it's probably fair to assume that the government's toast, C&C's gone, and that they're on their own.

Also, it's possible that the CO or other higher ups in the command structure die early on. With the vague history, it's possible that those prisoners come back after a year and do some serious damage via improvised/scavenged explosives and surprise.

[Woolfe]

All electronics are pretty much fried.

The EMP blast from a ground strike (which is what have hit Tucson in order to maximize damage to Davis-Monthan AFB) has a range of ten miles. If Ranger Center is within ten miles of the blast, they've got bigger problems than EMP effects.

A full scale nuclear attack would include nukes in air to do as much electronic damage as possible, and induce as much panic and problems as possible with the loss of communications.

Best decision, sit back and wait out the Nuclear Fallout. 18 months to 3 years later.

Now is a safe time to start thinking, "We may be the only Organized unit left." Actually, I would start wondering along about 3-6 months later instead of 18. I would for sure try to define where the "hard" borders are. (Those being where terrain and radiation make further passage in that direction impossible.)

18 months to 3 years is based on the approximate time it would take for the nuclear winter and the to conclude. Fallout would in theory be still present during that period in continuously reducing amounts. (The original theory was of Nuclear winter was something like 10-20 years I believe)
That said you could send people out much earier than that. Determine glow etc.

Supplies an issue.

That would be my #1 concern. The MREs ran out quite awhile ago. Making agricultural fields -- in a desert no less -- productive again requires some serious labor even with functional heavy equipment. Then there's the entire growth cycle of the crops before fresh food becomes available again. Scavenging for canned goods would be a major priority for at least a year.

I'm assuming the prison had some degree of food growing capability to give the "well behaved" something to do.

No comms. Monsters turning up.

Bam! Bam! Bam! "I thought --" Brrrp! "-- this kind of shit --" Kaboom! "--only happened in movies!" Arrgh-urk.

Could also be a solution to food problem depending on radiation content...

Prison survivors turning up. Lots of stuff to keep us busy. More years pass. No one's left, surely we would have heard something by now, surely someone would have replied. Generations pass,

And THAT is where I figure the conversion point occurs; when the CO dies and the rest of the original officers have died or retired (as best as one can in the Wasteland). Remaining military personnel rotate over into a community militia, which for whatever reason calls itself the "Desert Rangers".

I agree, altho I think the basis of them would have started earlier as they began to work with the other survivors closer. The death of Co, may simply be the last nail in the coffin.
I'm still barracking for Walker Texas Ranger as the inspiration.

Well, the game's set somewhere around 70 years after the bombs fell. Also, they're known as Rangers as far away as Vegas and have some sort of reputation throughout the territory. So the name change is probably at least 20 years old. Personally, I would put it closer to 20 years after the war, so 2018ish. It, of course, depends on the age of the CO, the complacency of the civilians in the center, and how sure they are of the devastation. If a scout came back with, "Tuscon's glow can be seen from a mile away in the daytime, sir," it's probably fair to assume that the government's toast, C&C's gone, and that they're on their own.

Is it only 70 years... I thought it was 100 for some reason.

Or maybe just maybe, they did a bit of study at the time. Just enough to create the game, but not enough to avoid really big potentially factual issues when the Pedantic ones(and I include me in that comment) start picking it apart. Jeez give them a break.

Oh, no doubt, much/most of what they designed is solid. But some mistakes were made. Now is their opportunity to fix some of those mistakes. It's what I would do in their shoes. [Look at me! I'm roleplaying! ]

[/quote]
No need to fix, just massage until pliable enough to fit into different hole

[Drool]

I believe it's something like 73 years. I think the 100 number comes from the year the History of the Desert Rangers book was written. But since it includes the destruction of Cochise, we're obviously starting before that point. I think the current year is given in the little text intro on the splash screen, but I can't check now.

[CaptainPatch]

A full scale nuclear attack would include nukes in air to do as much electronic damage as possible, and induce as much panic and problems as possible with the loss of communications.

Then 14 miles. Same concern. (If within 14 miles...)

I'm assuming the prison had some degree of food growing capability to give the "well behaved" something to do.

Not at a Max Security prison. That's one of the reasons it was placed in a _desert_. Having them doing some gardening gives the access to things that can be turned into weapons.

[I live just up the road from San Quentin, which is where CA's Death Row is. Death Row only accounts for <10% of the prison. (With plans to expand.) SQ _does_ have a Machine Shop, but Death Row inmates don't have access to it. Too dangerous! This is, what I think is a major flaw in the initial premise. If the prison was _always_ intended to be 100% Max Security, they wouldn't have added a Machine Shop. But for convenience sake, I always assumed that the before completion, the prison was "re-purposed" to house ONLY Death Row inmates, leaving the Machine Shop to lie idle. Eventually the Machine Shop equipment would have been shipped elsewhere, but the nukes fell before they got around to doing that.]

[Drool]

Well, while we're worshiping at Altar of Pedantic Realism, shouldn't we be whining about the concept of a prison holding only death row inmates?

[CaptainPatch]

Well, while we're worshiping at Altar of Pedantic Realism, shouldn't we be whining about the concept of a prison holding only death row inmates?

Police State development during the run-up to war. Tends to fill up prisons, so to keep the size of prison populations manageable, death sentences become more common.

I just realized something: Given the numbers and the purity of sentences of the prisoners, these were most likely mostly political prisoners. Makes speculations a whole lot more interesting!

[Woolfe]

A full scale nuclear attack would include nukes in air to do as much electronic damage as possible, and induce as much panic and problems as possible with the loss of communications.

Then 14 miles. Same concern. (If within 14 miles...)

The Higher the blast the greater the EMP area of effect
"High Altitude burst"
Is the correct term, 1 explosion has the potential to have an emp effect that covers 80-90% of the continental USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

I'm assuming the prison had some degree of food growing capability to give the "well behaved" something to do.

Not at a Max Security prison. That's one of the reasons it was placed in a _desert_. Having them doing some gardening gives the access to things that can be turned into weapons.

[I live just up the road from San Quentin, which is where CA's Death Row is. Death Row only accounts for <10% of the prison. (With plans to expand.) SQ _does_ have a Machine Shop, but Death Row inmates don't have access to it. Too dangerous! This is, what I think is a major flaw in the initial premise. If the prison was _always_ intended to be 100% Max Security, they wouldn't have added a Machine Shop. But for convenience sake, I always assumed that the before completion, the prison was "re-purposed" to house ONLY Death Row inmates, leaving the Machine Shop to lie idle. Eventually the Machine Shop equipment would have been shipped elsewhere, but the nukes fell before they got around to doing that.]

Yeah I was wondering about the machine shop, I just figured it was how it was done. Perhaps it was simply that there was a large percentage of death row inmates here. Maybe the rest of it was a regular prison with differing grades of criminality. Or maybe it started as a normal prison, and then they recently started moving death rowers in there because of the lovely view....

[CaptainPatch]

In Real Life, the Cold War more or less ended with the collapse of Soviet Communism. The run-up to nuclear Armageddon defused, people stopped fretting about nukes detonating willy-nilly all over the globe. In Wasteland, the premise is that the Cold War never ended until it went _hot_ around 1995/1998. Plans to wage and defend against nuclear war would have accordingly continued to be vigorously pursued.

In 2001 in Real Life,concern over "loose nukes" revived interest in plans for the defense against nuclear detonation effects. "MIL-STD-188-125-1" http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/FEDMIL/std188_125_1.pdf was developed. The upshot of that document is that military systems _would_ be upgraded to "harden" them against EMP effects. Additionally, critical civilian infrastructures such as commercial aviation would also be required to to be upgraded as well. (To prevent "planes falling from the sky everywhere you looked".)

I believe that in the Wasteland universe where fear of nuclear Armageddon never abated, the US military (as well as the other nations' militaries) would have developed something akin to MIL-STD-188-125-1 much sooner, and implemented the called for safeguards well before the bombs DID start to drop. But with not just _one_ HEMP going off, but literally scores (if not hundreds) of detonations -- and NOT simultaneously -- the civilian sector would have been hammered and the military systems hard pressed. The military systems however mandated backup components be kept close to hand to expedite prompt repairs. In the WL-universe, perhaps even the civilian sector was ordered to do likewise.

Anyway, it wouldn't necessarily become an inevitable and near-total cyber-death from EMP.

[Hmm. Just had an odd thought on the subject: What would be the HEMP effects be on waves of ICBMs in flight? Missile fratricide? Would concern about having the bulk of the ICBMs deactivated in flight prompt aggressors to NOT utilize HEMP bursts? Might a nation defend itself against incoming waves of ICBMs by deliberately creating a HEMP in its own airspace? What happens when the large majority of ICBMs lose targeting guidance and literally drop who-know-where, leaving primary targets totally intact? Hmm.]

[Woolfe]

Perhaps. But even that isn't going to help a lot if most of the communications hubs etc are actually physically nuked.

Plus there has been no real world testing done. I know how badly things fail. There will still be systems that aren't shielded but are relied upon by shielded systems, some of the shielded systems won't be shielded properly etc.

Call me pessimistic, but basically SNAFU is what I expect on a day to day basis with technical systems.

[CaptainPatch]

Call me pessimistic, but basically SNAFU is what I expect on a day to day basis with technical systems.

Pessimist. And I'll raise you a cynical.

[Zeronet]

Does it state its all death row? I always figured the Rangers were just massive dicks that kicked all the prisoners out to fend for themselves regardless of sentence.

[Drool]

Located directly south of their position on that day was a newly-constructed federal prison. In addition to housing the nation's criminals condemned to death, the prison contained light industrial manufacturing facilities.

Sounds like it wasn't just 100% death row, but every death row inmate for the whole nation.