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2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Suggestions for what Wasteland 2 should or could include.

Moderator: Rangers

If Wasteland 2 is actually a top-down game with 2D backgrounds, what would you prefer?

3D models
563
58%
Animated 2D sprites
386
40%
Static 2D sprites
20
2%
 
Total votes : 969


Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby ffordesoon » April 20th, 2012, 10:35 pm

dmazz wrote:It does seem that will be the case, as Brian has said he plans the game to have 'state of the art graphics'. Very strange comment for a game with this budget, but I assume he's serious that the game will have great graphics.


I imagine he means the graphics will meet modern standards, not that the game is going to look like Crysis. This is why I'm picturing something like JA: Back In Action with better art direction; its graphics are, y'know, up to code, but it's not a game you use to show off your new graphics card.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby dmazz » April 21st, 2012, 12:04 am

'State of the art graphics' might mean Brian means will use the latest graphical technologies to make the game. Nothing more. Although that conflicts against him saying he doesn't want to spend too much money on technology.

Maybe he means. "Similar graphics to games by similar sized teams". Which is a weird thing to say as they are making a text heavy RPG, one of the most complicated and time intensive type of games to make. So unlikely he means that.

The former by the way almost certainly means he'll be using 3D and not sprites. Perhaps he means by that comment that the latest graphical tools will enable him to make the best looking game. Which possibly might be true depending on his art direction.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby suz » April 21st, 2012, 12:18 am

Unfortunately camera controls need to be done in the engine, otherwise there's almost no chance to get rotation.
I hope the team changes their minds on fixed point camera only and provides an option for moving it, even if stating that's not the optimal game experience.

Provided characters are 3D models and a well known format I wouldn't worry about model quality.

One of the first things that comes out these days is mesh, skeleton and texture mods for characters and animation mods shortly after, if your PC can handle high poly you will likely have high poly models soon after release.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby dmazz » April 21st, 2012, 1:50 am

Yeah with the modkit, the graphics will be upgraded over time. But what's crucial is the style they choose. It needs to look good with minimum dev time.

I think the game will be in real time 3D for sure. Primarily for simplicity, since the entire teams primary experience is with real time 3D and the latest graphics technology revolves around real time 3D. I have yet to see a 3D game with little dev costs look good. But perhaps this will be the first?

This game was made with a 5 man team on Unity. With a more gritty style, the graphics would look good for Wasteland 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpiMu6XTuWk&hd=1

ps
Brian has said there won't be a combat view. The exploration view will be the combat view it won't change. There will also be a travel map view. I think it's likely this means no zoom
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 21st, 2012, 11:41 am

dmazz wrote:'State of the art graphics' might mean Brian means will use the latest graphical technologies to make the game. Nothing more. Although that conflicts against him saying he doesn't want to spend too much money on technology.
One can create Minecraft style characters in Z-Brush if they are strapped for money or time and can't have the artist to work all month on it... It's still done with state of the art tech. :lol:
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby ffordesoon » April 21st, 2012, 11:56 am

Heh. Minecraft is actually pretty much how the original in 3D would look. ;)
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby falloutgod13 » April 21st, 2012, 11:56 am

Gizmo wrote:
One can create Minecraft style characters in Z-Brush if they are strapped for money or time and can't have the artist to work all month on it... It's still done with state of the art tech. :lol:[/quote]

:lol:

We can't have limited zoom with that so lets rule it out as a not-going-to-happen. That's pretty funny though.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 21st, 2012, 12:01 pm

falloutgod13 wrote:We can't have limited zoom with that so lets rule it out as a not-going-to-happen. That's pretty funny though.
It wasn't a suggestion :mrgreen:; just illustrating the point.

** Though.. If well done, it could still be art... 8-)
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby zeonmx » April 21st, 2012, 12:29 pm

What's the difference between static 2D and animated 2D?
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby AgentTate » April 21st, 2012, 12:32 pm

zeonmx wrote:What's the difference between static 2D and animated 2D?


Static 2D is a picture representing your character or party, and pictures representing enemies and the environment. Wasteland was pretty much static 2D (though the images moved, they didn't interact/react). Animated 2D is with sprites. Fallout 1 and 2 were animated 2D.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 21st, 2012, 12:33 pm

zeonmx wrote:What's the difference between static 2D and animated 2D?

Really just this...
ImageImage

In a game, Static 2d graphics are just a single frame image used to represent a thing; where an animated 2d image has multiple frames, and the thing has some sort of movement.
Last edited by Gizmo on April 21st, 2012, 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby zeonmx » April 21st, 2012, 12:34 pm

Then I guess go with 3D model.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Brendan » April 22nd, 2012, 6:31 am

My issues with 2D animated sprites are that the movements tend to be choppy and they do not scale well.

I do like the idea of painted backgrounds though. I think that the Infinity Engine games' backgrounds look much better than any 3D games since.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Mandemon » April 22nd, 2012, 6:37 am

Fallout series also used the same "crouch down, crouch up" for everything that required to deal with anything on the floor. Then we had "tying the rope" animation used... tying the rope, using the computer, accessing containers, pick pocketing, setting the nuke etc. etc.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Tagaziel » April 22nd, 2012, 6:52 am

Brendan wrote:My issues with 2D animated sprites are that the movements tend to be choppy and they do not scale well.

I do like the idea of painted backgrounds though. I think that the Infinity Engine games' backgrounds look much better than any 3D games since.


You realize that most of that were pre-rendered environments with some minor post-processing in graphics editors?
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Brendan » April 22nd, 2012, 6:57 am

Tagaziel wrote:
Brendan wrote:My issues with 2D animated sprites are that the movements tend to be choppy and they do not scale well.

I do like the idea of painted backgrounds though. I think that the Infinity Engine games' backgrounds look much better than any 3D games since.


You realize that most of that were pre-rendered environments with some minor post-processing in graphics editors?


I did not. You learn something new every day.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby MDF_MadDogFargo » April 22nd, 2012, 3:07 pm

suz wrote:Unfortunately camera controls need to be done in the engine, otherwise there's almost no chance to get rotation.
I hope the team changes their minds on fixed point camera only and provides an option for moving it, even if stating that's not the optimal game experience.

Provided characters are 3D models and a well known format I wouldn't worry about model quality.

One of the first things that comes out these days is mesh, skeleton and texture mods for characters and animation mods shortly after, if your PC can handle high poly you will likely have high poly models soon after release.
<snip 3D computer imagery jargon>


See, this is what convinces me that static 2D is better: No worry about polygons or camera angles. The concept artist can design the art! The only visual advantage I see to so-called 3D is to allow the player to direct part of the visuals, but IMO the tradeoff is not worth it. I'd much prefer a well crafted scene illustrated from the POV of the artists than a 3D model that lets me change the angle.

Is it possible that it's cheaper to use real 3D models than to build convincing 3D computer models? Every single one of those 3D engines looks fake to me. It's not 3D unless it has parallax or motion capture; it's just fakey movie 3D.

I hope I'm pointing out the obvious, that hand drawn artwork is capable of looking more convincing than computer drawn 3D environments (despite every modern technological advance). But unlike Wasteland's time, static 2D computer images can be just about equal to hand drawn artwork quality today.

I am visualizing something that the unnecessary 3D engine computing power would be more useful for: random and procedurally generated static 2D visuals.

With a random 2D visuals generator the picture you get in any scene can be varied like a deck of cards, with so many different permutations that no one will ever see every version of the 2D image. You "roll the dice" and the next picture of action is generated; the visual variations simulate your character's ability or blind chance, i.e. the pictures are the dice.

With procedurally generated 2D visuals, stories can play out in a comics-style slideshow, like the battles from Wasteland, action by action. Your character's picture (portrait) changes depending on a roll of the dice (a permutation of the battle) and he/she carries those changes through the game. Your characters gain scars as well as abilities; their clothes and armor and weapons become more customized over time; each change is part of the story of your individual party.

I imagine that some portion of your characters' attitude, dialogue, and personality can likewise be procedurally generated. The player or players direct the action, and the characters respond to the environment and the environment responds to the characters in a natural way that's not scripted. It's emergent behavior generated by your playthrough.

Just as the 2D imagery can play out procedurally, the POV can be procedurally generated too; it doesn't need to be fixed or scripted. The content of the game that would be taken up by the massive realtime 3D computer models' engine can be traded for a multi-level library of permutations of 2D hand drawn artwork. The game can look as good as the concept art that you see on the box covers!

That's just the imagery; the interface can also be improved with more features. With more artistic freedom, our game doesn't need to be limited by the models we are stuck with; it's only limited by the imagination of the authors. I believe this is possible because I see it as a modern, updated version of Wasteland's format. Wasteland is my proof of concept.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 22nd, 2012, 4:12 pm

MDF_MadDogFargo wrote:With procedurally generated 2D visuals,

I have actually contemplated making a 2D procedural RPG... and I could only conceptualize doing it using 3d models; no other method that I considered would even begin to approach the results that I wanted. Having a static library of recycled artwork was never an option I would accept.

3D is often used to allow the player to directly affect the vanishing point, but it does not exist for only that reason. 3D assets offer a tremendous freedom from static lighting, and the rigid constraints of working in 2D; it allows you to parametrize the final results in ways that are just not possible using flat 2D... (and not just palette swapping either).

If the game has an immutably fixed perspective, then there is a place for both 2d and 3D object depiction, but the designers would have to take care how the mixed format items are used in proximity to each other; for example having the PC's carry lanterns in the dark that light their way, would not be as straightforward a task when that light contacts a 2d sprite like a tree or a wire-frame shelving unit as it would be if it were all done in 3D.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby gautraudj » April 27th, 2012, 7:04 am

Gizmo wrote:I would appreciate the ability rotate the view even in a 3D chess game; to ponder the board from a different angle
Image


Absolutely. I'd love this too. They might have to put a bit of extra time into their environments though (think adding detail to all sides of a piece of machinery, rather than just the 3 faces that the player would normally see).

And we shouldn't be allowed to lower the perspective of the camera, only rotate and zoom. That way, we can't ever see the horizon and inXile only has to worry about building the world from the top-down perspective.
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Re: 2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

Postby gotthammer » April 27th, 2012, 11:43 am

I voted for '3D models' for the poll.
I kinda wish there were an option for the poll saying something like: "whatever the developer can make the most polished" :)
I'm fine w/ whatever they choose to go with. :)
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