Windows+Mac OS X+Linux?

[chaosite]

Hey, can I have some sort of authorative statement on this issue? I'm opening a new thread so it gets more attention and doesn't get lost in the big one.

When you pledge 30$, you get two copies of the game. Apparently, a "copy" of a game is an executable for a specific operating system, so if you don't give away your second copy you could run the game on two platforms (out of three).

However, one of the way to get the game will be Steam. Steam has a feature called SteamPlay in which you can get your game for both Windows and Mac OS X without paying twice (which makes a lot of sense, to me anyway). That means that with two copies you could play on all three platforms, redeeming one copy as a Steam key, and the other one as a Linux copy.

If you could do that, then that basically means that if you want to use Linux and another platform, you can't give your second copy to a friend, but if you wanted to use Windows and Mac OS X you wouldn't lose it and would be able to gift it.
Which is silly, because it's discriminating against Linux user for no apparent reason.

So the question is, are you going to use SteamPlay?

<soapbox>And if so, what are you going to do about the Linux users who're getting the short end of the stick here?
And if not, why not? SteamPlay is a pretty good thing! Everyone who publishes on Steam and has a Mac version should use it.
I think the only out here is not to tie a copy of a game to a specific operating system. It's a completely arbitrary thing do with digital distribution, anyway.</soapbox>

[jan]

That's a bad decision by InXile and contradicts the idea of crossplatform.

I don't know what they intend to win by not offering all available versions to the customers out of the box.

I pretty much prefer a user and not a os centric licence model.

[smurfinaus]

I could be very wrong, but most games sold at retail stores are sold either as PC OR Mac etc - so you are paying for game on each different OS - its always been like that. Steamplay blah blah is just Steam - maybe Steam was just too lazy to offer Mac separately (hell there arent that many Mac games anyway?)?

[jan]

Nope, it's the other way around.

Cross platform these days also means that you'll get the game for all available platforms without paying for each platform.

Examples?
You already named Steamplay, AAA games like Dragon Age II, Spore, the majority of the all the Indie productions are doing it this way since years, Humble Indie Bundles and others. Almost all my dev tools are cross platform these days as well and i only payed once for them but use them on Win/OS X and sometimes Linux.

Why is it this way?
Because you should be charged for the game but not for your systems and today many people aren't limited to one OS anymore. If you charge those people more than once for the same game, you're milking those who were honest enough buying your game.

Does it add more work?
Yep but supporting for instance three platforms doesn't mean that it will be three times the work because due to many cross platform development tools, libs and middleware this process got much easier than it was quite some years ago. Secondly you also don't have to do all the assets three times as well.

I'm dissapointed by this oldskool thinking of inXile. They'll use some cross platform middleware which definitely supports the target platforms (at least the computer systems) but they want to charge you for the platforms. If you know how much easier this process got, then it's a joke.

Wasn't Schafer's DFA the shining example for this project? Well, guess what. There you get all platforms for free, just the way it should be.

[DarkTwinkie]

The Kickstarter moved so fast and furious, we learned a ton about what you guys wanted as we went along. We are looking into this right away and will give you an answer in the next few days.

[jan]

Thanks

[NotDomo]

The Kickstarter moved so fast and furious, we learned a ton about what you guys wanted as we went along. We are looking into this right away and will give you an answer in the next few days.

I'm not an expert on these matters, but is it not possible for the same CD or digital release to have binaries/install executables for multiple OSes? The majority of the game data is likely to be the same between systems, so is it actually difficult for you guys to have all OSes included for everyone?

[DarkTwinkie]

We discussed this with the tech team and will be supporting SteamPlay and the equivalents on other digital distribution platforms that we use. So if you have a single digital copy and Mac, Windows and Linux systems, you will be able to use your 1 copy on all 3. Of course, that's assuming you grabbed the copy off a system that supports this. Since Steam doesn't offer Linux games, you will get access to Windows and Mac systems if you get the game there and so on.

Space willing, we want to put all 3 copies onto the physical discs as well.

[chaosite]

Awesome, thank you very much, this is exactly the answer I wanted to hear.

[TommyGun]

I could be very wrong, but most games sold at retail stores are sold either as PC OR Mac etc - so you are paying for game on each different OS - its always been like that. Steamplay blah blah is just Steam - maybe Steam was just too lazy to offer Mac separately (hell there arent that many Mac games anyway?)?

EA Games is offering their games as Both PC & Mac on the same physical disc (Like Sims 3 series for example).
Its not difficult to make a same retail disc be compatible with different OS. The game content will be shared by all just make a custom installer (& autorun if supported) to install the current platform libraries and executables along with the common game data.
Imo that should be the best way to go.

[SXX]

DarkTwinkie
That's great news because platform limitation is quite awful for DRM-free game (Windows version can be used on Linux/Mac though Wine-based solution).

Do you manage to make Desura release as alternative for Steam one?
Desura support Linux/Mac/Windows and it's DRM-free system (some people doesn't like Steam).

[jan]

@DarkTwinkie
Thanks a lot. I'm impressed by how you really listen to user complaints and reconsider your position if it makes sense. I know a few people who hesitated funding the project but will now certainly buying the game.

Will you also offer the game directly on your site via the Humble Store?

This way a user can get all the available platforms (Win, OS X and Linux).

The developer gets all the money and doesn't have to share it with some distribution platform and you can always add some Steam keys for free on top for those who prefer the game in their Steam account.

More and more Indies are using this option these days and it works pretty well and it often is the best option for the customer too.

[Jaysyn]

Steam is coming to Linux. Does that change anything on the distribution front?

[Wasted Vibe Land]

I see that you've made the Steam-users happy. Any chance of making equally happy those who don't want to use any digital distribution platforms that require their clients to be installed?


I can understand that you want/ need to somehow be able to tell if a copy of the game is legitimate, but Wasteland 2 was advertised as "DRM-free" on Kickstarter and I never questioned what your interpretation of "DRM-free" is - yes, it seems that we've reached a point where the term has more than one interpretations. I do hope that "copy" of the game means/ equals a S/N or license key, which I'm fine with for a "DRM-free" game, as long as that's all local and no server authendication/ connection is required.

If I got one "copy" of the game, that "copy" should work independant of what platform I'm on at any time, as long as I only run one copy of the game on one platform. If I got two "copies" of the game, I should be able to run it on any two platforms at any given time whether I'm on Steam and the likes or not.
Think of the following cases:
(1) When I got Wasteland 2 on Kickstarter, I was using Windows. By the time the game comes out or, worse, a few months later I switch to Linux or Mac. Should I be required to buy it all over again?
(2) Today I have a Windows and a Mac system, each at a different physical location, and I'm on the $30 tier, so I got a "copy" for each of my systems. A few months after I started playing Wasteland 2, my Windows system breaks down. I get me some new hardware but I can't afford to get a new Windows license (I had an OEM one), so I install Linux. Should I be required to repay the second "copy" I got with my pledge?
(3) I want to gift my 2nd "copy" to a friend - as it stands now, I have to choose his platform beforehand. Should he/ she switch platforms tomorrow, my gift is useless to him/ her. Should he/ she have to buy it if he/ she wants to keep playing the game?
To me, this feels like "punishement" for not sticking to one OS for the rest of your life.
Even more so since Wasteland 2 will be developed for all threee platforms from the beginning.

As for your decision about Steam and multiple "copies" of the game, that just feels like placing the legitimacy check into the hands of a third party which was not explicitly part of the Wasteland 2 package from the beginning. This could be seen as:
(a) discrimination in favor of people who accept Steam and the likes, and
(b) lack of trust in the people who gave you their money 18 months ahead based on the promise of a game.
Not to mention that 18 months is a very long time and there's no guaranty that Steam or any other DD platform will still work the way it does today.

It was also mentioned here that games are sold platform dependant in the mainstream game industry. What kind of argument is this? I was under the impression that Kickstarter, at least for inXile, is the way to do things differently than the big publishers (that didn't even want to publish Wasteland 2) and maybe even change things for good along the way. I was never told that "differently" is meant to be something positive for only the developer. Or did I get this completely wrong?

My point is that our "copy" or "copies" of the game should work regardless of the platform we're on, for as long as we enjoy playing Wasteland 2 and regardless of the distribution channel we got them from, so long as we gave our money to inXile. And the only one that can ensure this is inXile itself.

So, inXile, could you be kind enough and please share your stand and plans on the points addressed here?

Thanks

[Brother None]

As for your decision about Steam and multiple "copies" of the game, that just feels like placing the legitimacy check into the hands of a third party which was not explicitly part of the Wasteland 2 package from the beginning.

It was explicitly said that you were getting one copy, for one single platform.

inXile is simply willing to grant multi-platform access where retailers allow. That's Steam, yes, but if they can get in on Desura, it's Desura too. And I don't think Desure requires a client.

[Wasted Vibe Land]

And I don't think Desure requires a client.

Yes it does, that's why I didn't speak of Steam only.
I'm not aware of any DD platform that doesn't require that you install their client to get access to "your" game.

Is this the official inXile respond?

Thanks

[Brother None]

I'm not aware of any DD platform that doesn't require that you install their client to get access to "your" game.

There's GOG. And GamersGate. But I don't think either of those is into cross-platform stuff.

Is this the official inXile respond?

No.

[Wasted Vibe Land]

There's GOG. And GamersGate. But I don't think either of those is into cross-platform stuff.

GOG is the only truly DRM-free one but it supports only Windows, even for the newer games that I know from Humble Bundle to support other platforms.
Actually, the Humble Bundle Store would be a viable alternative - someone already asked about it, but still no reply.

GamersGate supports Windows and Mac, where available. And though it has discontinued its client, you have to snick around the installation process to get the installer of the game if it's DRM-free.

Anyway, my original point was that it shouldn't depend on what features/ support third parties provide, it should be planned and provided by inXile itself - I think it's only fair, since we did back inXile.

And in regard to DRM-free, platforms put aside, truly DRM-free allows you to install and run a single copy on all your systems of the same platform at the same time.
If a S/N or license key is required for each "copy" to run (and that's the best case senario), it's not DRM-free. That's why I put the term DRM-free in quotation marks, because I think this is the route inXile is taking - I think it's sad since the term was used, but I'm willing to accept it so long as it's just that.

I still hope that inXile will deem it worthy to repond.
If inXile believes that one has to "tie" his/ her license(s) to a specific platform, unless he/ she is willing to give up the little DRM-freedom he/ she is given, the least they can do is to not require it this early - a lot of things can change in 18 months.

Thanks for taking the time to share your view, Brother None.

[Jaysyn]

A serial number is not & has never been DRM.

[Brother None]

Anyway, my original point was that it shouldn't depend on what features/ support third parties provide, it should be planned and provided by inXile itself - I think it's only fair, since we did back inXile.

If these things were so easy to manage, market and distribute, why do you think companies use digital retailers at all? This is not a commitment inXile is comfortable making.

And I don't know why you bring up "fair". inXile has been very explicit that a donation or pre-order entitles you to a copy on a single platform, and construing that as DRM is a stretch.