Mood: Fallout vs Wasteland

[TΛPETRVE]

While most of us might agree in not acknowledging JRPGs as full-fledged role playing games, that doesn't mean they have no inspirational value at all. I sneeze at the Final Fantasy series ('though I did like the character of Kefka in FF VI), but I'm a huge fan of the Earthbound/Mother games, as they are able to put up a light-hearted scenario and by the end turn it into a genuinely fucked up nightmare of Lovecraftian proportions, like few other games out there.

[LeoWasteland]

In full disclosure While aware of wasteland back in the day I started with Fallout 1 and 2 and they are what give me faith in Brian's direction and there are many things I want to see directly inspired by Fallout.That said I want this games world and mood to come more from the Wasteland world, albeit with not too much camp. Somthing like Mad Max is ideal. As far as artistic direction and color you should check out these excellent photos of the now decrepeit Detroit for inspiration;

http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html

Even if the world was nuked nature will return, just google pictures of Chernobyl. The diacotomy of old decaying life with new thriving, especially when its a return to nature, is more haunting than a brown washed out world ever will be. I loved Falllout but over there years I have grown tired of Brown, show me a world of new life built on the ashes of the old both in terms of athestics and in terms of the personalities represented.

[Alcatar]

I like the OP's thought on this, though I'd say (having never played Wasteland, mind you) that the world's extent and content needs to be emphasised when looking at style.

I find even Fallout 3 is a very limited world: It's quite large and the terrain varies, as do the side-stories and activities, but Fallout 3 has very basic interaction with the world. If Wasteland 2 heads in the direction of typical great titles by Brian Fargo (including Wasteland it would seem, according to the tin) then, increased interaction along with a sizeable world will sate me to no end.

[Stiffkittin]

I think Wasteland needs to find and define it's "hook". That core setting design element, whether visual or thematic, which then informs every other aspect of the world.

An example might be how the 80's Cold War setting and cultural climate pretty much defines a huge part of the Watchmen mythos.

[agvkrioni]

I've always been an avid gamer. My friends are an eclectic mix of gamers from across the board and I used to work at a popular Gaming retail store. And the biggest complaint that I heard concerning the Post-Apocalyptic genre was that Fallout 3 was too depressing. It didn't matter what you did, it was the same gray and bleak landscape all over. So much so that, when New Vegas came out a lot of people poo-poo'd my recommendation because they associated the franchise with the bleak atmopsphere from 3. The originals were kind of like that but you never saw the sky and everything was in the desert anyway so it could be explained away.

However, I don't think a serious mood for the game necessitates depression, or that post-apocalyptic environs necessitate bleakness compulsively. What we know from the instances of real fallout in the world, life goes on. There is abundant animal and plant life in Chernobyl. Yeah some mutations but it's not a desert. Yeah the buildings are in crumbling ruins, but nature is taking the place back. If at anything its becoming wilds again.

Finally, I'd like to say that the best stories boast color and humor, as well as sobering drama and realism. A mixture of both would be best. Places of bright vibrant color, places so dark or wasted with ash and sand its almost monochromatic. Scenes of hilarity, scenes of horrible emotional depth. Waves. Ups and downs. A mixture of it all.

Discovery did some footage of Chernobyl in the past 5 years or so and it was green, lush, and lively. The pictures in the link below look a little bleak but only because they're during Winter-time. Yet even so that place of ruins has a lot of color. It's no Fallout 3.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/02/chernobyl-25-years-after-_n_816902.html

[Emmy Lou]

Also, in my opinion, one of the key things that set the mood for fallout was the sounds. I don't think anyone here could listen to any of the console noises from Fallout 1 or 2 and not recognize them almost immediately. As long as those aren't in Wasteland 2, the feel will be entirely different to me. However, if any of the noises are similar, it'll drag me into the mindset of Fallout.

This is a very good point I hadn't thought about, good catch. As soon as you said that, my mind immediately conjured that distinct sound of FO combat starting (That mechanical sliding "chhnn" followed by a brief electronic "bpbp". Okay, so I'm not that great at onomatopoeia). The sound design of the actual game and not just the world does go a long way to giving it it's own unique feel. That's one thing I remember not liking about FO3/NV, actually. I kinda missed the non-intrusive level up sound of just a little "dingding" and Bethesda made it some kind of epic march anthem each time. It's probably just Pavlov's Nostalgia preferring the less significant one, but it still bugged me each time I leveled

Can't wait to hear WL2's little sounds a million times and have them permanently ingrained in my head!

[Enclave]

We're going to see Fallout influence seep into Wasteland quite a lot, inevitably. But it's easy to forget the games were pretty dissimilar in many ways.

Mood is one of the key ways the two diverge. Fallout was played relatively more straight, though there was still a lot of dark humor. Wasteland, by comparison, worked with brighter colors, a more varied desert, and a lighter tone.

This is one part of the game where I'm a little wary of Fallout influencing it too much. Do we really want a wasteland with the brown/grey look of the dead deserts of Fallout? We all remember the Cochise base (and those robots tearing us up). You could say Fallout 2 (and maybe 3) played it a lot closer to the way Wasteland did it, but I for one feel this is a unique side of Wasteland where you should not look to emulate Fallout. It's good for the two settings to be strongly different.

While I do agree with you I wouldn't mind seeing Wasteland 2 lean a little bit more towards Fallout 2 than Wasteland did. Definitely don't think it should get quite as bleak and brown as Fallout 1 though.

I'd say take the middle ground between Wasteland and Fallout 2.

[agvkrioni]

While I do agree with you I wouldn't mind seeing Wasteland 2 lean a little bit more towards Fallout 2 than Wasteland did. Definitely don't think it should get quite as bleak and brown as Fallout 1 though.

I'd say take the middle ground between Wasteland and Fallout 2.

I agree with you. Definitely would like to see some concept art on this side.

[Hadar]

I don't want the game to look neither like a fallout OR a wasteland clone.

Wasteland clone? You serious??? How can a sequel be a clone?

Yup. Let's face it, Brian&co. may have worked on the game, but that was a loooooong time ago. They worked on tons of different( And derivative) IPs since, so the original reasons for the entire specific feel and design of the game are mired in the past. Trying to push for 80s EGA graphics just for the sake of it will be just that, retro for retro's sake.

I HATE THAT WORD.

Looking at the released concept art I'm absolutely thrilled. Colors appear where they SHOULD, including concrete greys. Those desert rangers look sweet! (The guy smoking with the helmet on especially). So screw both the Fallout look and the WL look. I want something original and unique and I trust inXile (and Obsidian) to deliver. What's important is to have great dialog, plot and a world that'll suck us all dry of free time.

And may god bless inXile.

[jonny_p66]

We're going to see Fallout influence seep into Wasteland quite a lot, inevitably. But it's easy to forget the games were pretty dissimilar in many ways.

Mood is one of the key ways the two diverge. Fallout was played relatively more straight, though there was still a lot of dark humor. Wasteland, by comparison, worked with brighter colors, a more varied desert, and a lighter tone.

This is one part of the game where I'm a little wary of Fallout influencing it too much. Do we really want a wasteland with the brown/grey look of the dead deserts of Fallout? We all remember the Cochise base (and those robots tearing us up). You could say Fallout 2 (and maybe 3) played it a lot closer to the way Wasteland did it, but I for one feel this is a unique side of Wasteland where you should not look to emulate Fallout. It's good for the two settings to be strongly different.

I didn't know Wasteland was lighter in tone than Fallout. The name Wasteland seems to imply a dark and serious game so I assumed it was more like that. Although yeah it couldn't be much darker in tone than Fallout 1.

Yeah a more light-hearted tone could work well, but how would that fit with mark morgans music? will it be lighter tone than in Fallout as well?

I also think the concept art so far has set the scene extremely well, although I think it will be a massive massive undertaking, and not necessarily worth it, to try and maintain that level of authenticity and realism for all the in-game assets as well?

[Woolfe]

I didn't know Wasteland was lighter in tone than Fallout. The name Wasteland seems to imply a dark and serious game so I assumed it was more like that. Although yeah it couldn't be much darker in tone than Fallout 1.

Yeah a more light-hearted tone could work well, but how would that fit with mark morgans music? will it be lighter tone than in Fallout as well?

I also think the concept art so far has set the scene extremely well, although I think it will be a massive massive undertaking, and not necessarily worth it, to try and maintain that level of authenticity and realism for all the in-game assets as well?

Its interesting actually because Fallout had quite an oppressive feel to it in its use of colours etc. Where as WL had colour and life. (Broccoli forests and mutant bunnies in the Ag centre)

I don't think it will be as hard as you think. Most of the stuff in the original was done pretty well considering the technology of the time. I think it likely that the same degree of "skill" will be applied to the new game, and the art budget has no doubt only increased.

[lava3d]

Yeah, Wasteland 2 should have a unique tone. Maybe some areas can be darker like Fallout, but overall mood should definitely be much lighter.

[Mandemon]

From what I have gathered, yes, mood should be lighter than in Fallout. Although in Fallout 2 had mood comparable to Wasteland.

it would actually be interesting idea... Have Wasteland 2 have mood similar to Fallout 1. It's the reverse of moods!

...

Nah, maybe not, but people must admit that "grim hopelessness" didn't exist after Fallout 1. After Fallout 1, it become clear that humanity is surviving where as it was still a question in Fallout 1.

[Hasenklein]

We're going to see Fallout influence seep into Wasteland quite a lot, inevitably. But it's easy to forget the games were pretty dissimilar in many ways.

Mood is one of the key ways the two diverge. Fallout was played relatively more straight, though there was still a lot of dark humor. Wasteland, by comparison, worked with brighter colors, a more varied desert, and a lighter tone.

This is one part of the game where I'm a little wary of Fallout influencing it too much. Do we really want a wasteland with the brown/grey look of the dead deserts of Fallout? We all remember the Cochise base (and those robots tearing us up). You could say Fallout 2 (and maybe 3) played it a lot closer to the way Wasteland did it, but I for one feel this is a unique side of Wasteland where you should not look to emulate Fallout. It's good for the two settings to be strongly different.

I think that you should concentrate on creating a consistent world. If it can stand on its own merits and creates a different mood than Fallout, fine. If it doesn't, it's fine as well. You can think about what makes Wasteland different from Fallout and try to emphazise these aspects. But you shouldn't try to make it different at all costs, just to make it look different. "Difference" isn't a valid design principle for me. After all, the game is called "Wasteland", so bright colors and a visual carnival aren't exactly what I'd expect.

Furthermore, Wasteland is more than 20 years old. A lot of things that were weird and appropriate at this time may not be as appropriate today. My personal opinion is that, in all honesty, there are no visual aspects of Wasteland that can serve as a measure for the visual style of Wasteland 2.

[Drool]

After all, the game is called "Wasteland", so bright colors and a visual carnival aren't exactly what I'd expect.

As someone who played the original, that's exactly what I do expect.

[Hasenklein]

After all, the game is called "Wasteland", so bright colors and a visual carnival aren't exactly what I'd expect.

As someone who played the original, that's exactly what I do expect.

I played the original as well, and yet I have no expectations so far for Wasteland 2.

What I said is that if the devs can create a consistent gaming world that catches the mood of Wasteland, fine. But if they find they can't, they should drop this goal.

Since you raised an objection, you are saying that creating a consistent gaming world should not be the priority. Rather, it should resemble certain visual aspects of Wasteland even if dropping these aspect would allow for a better, more consistent gaming world. I don't share this view.

[Drool]

Since you raised an objection, you are saying that creating a consistent gaming world should not be the priority.

No, no I didn't. Furthermore, I don't believe that a "consistent gaming world" (whatever that means) makes a bright and colorful world impossible.

[Hasenklein]

Since you raised an objection, you are saying that creating a consistent gaming world should not be the priority.

No, no I didn't. Furthermore, I don't believe that a "consistent gaming world" (whatever that means) makes a bright and colorful world impossible.

It means that the elements that constitute the gaming world have to fit together in order to create a coherent, consistent experience. It means that certain elements don't stand out and appear to be artificial in the sense that they don't fit to other elements.

I didn't say its impossible, only, that if they find that it doesn't work, they shouldn't enforce it. I simply cannot imagine a Wasteland world that is bright a colorfull, so I have absolutely no idea how it could look like.

[ffordesoon]

...You played the first game, and you can't imagine it?

[TΛPETRVE]

Let me guess: "The original doesn't count, it was just a victim of technical restrictions and has no stylistic value."