Movie silencer or real silencer ?

[Klim]

So it looks like using realistic silencer makes sense only in case of battles on realistic distances, and making long rage firefights will make game much less interesting and exciting.

[geezer]

Agreed. Realistic silencers sound pretty cool actually. Those youtube links were pretty interesting. That silenced MP5 in the last video sounded amazing. We could only hope that Wasteland will have sound effects as realistic as that. So they're not silent enough to shoot someone in the back of the head from 3 feet away without others nearby hearing, but with subsonic weapons they can sometimes be quiet enough to be mistaken for a toy cap gun. It's surprising how effective some of those suppressors are actually. Real firearms are LOUD. Some are over 150 dB. Enough to cause instantaneous hearing damage. A friend wanted me to go to a shooting range with him, but I declined because I did the math on the weapons' SPL and even the best earplugs and the best earmuffs together wouldn't have reduced the SPL to a safe level.

Another pet peeve of mine in some games is exaggerated muzzle flash. To the point of utter ridiculousness. It's a gun. Not a flamethrower. The artists should take a gander at real muzzle flashes both during the day and at night. There are youtube videos for that as well. A little muzzle flash is fine. Especially at night. Just don't exaggerate it.

I also agree that laser or other energy weapons should be a sniper's best friend. An IR laser wouldn't even be visible at night. You'd have to aim it with sights just like a regular sniper rifle. And there's no recoil at all to interfere with accuracy of single shots or even full auto. You might want to account for beam spread though, depending on your collimation/focusing optics. In addition to IR lasers you could also have UV and maybe even x-ray lasers. All would be invisible without special detectors.

[Inca]

One of the best uses of the silencers is inside the dark (read without electricity) building in CQB. When a gun is going of in a small space it is definitely deafining and blinding, especially for the firerer. In gaming terms that could be impelmented as penalty to preception for brief period of time.

[DandyA]

Both! You have energy weapons and monsters already, right? Okay, Xia Li, you get the old-fashioned silencer that makes it sound like popping a paper bag. Sand Devil, you're going in close, so have the super sci-fi thing that makes it like a mosquito fart.

[UniversalWolf]

Another pet peeve of mine in some games is exaggerated muzzle flash. To the point of utter ridiculousness. It's a gun. Not a flamethrower. The artists should take a gander at real muzzle flashes both during the day and at night. There are youtube videos for that as well. A little muzzle flash is fine. Especially at night. Just don't exaggerate it.

Agreed. In real combat weapons muzzle flash is considered a bad thing.

[Prometheus]

AFAIK, the amount of sound suppressed from the suppressor matters a lot based on the type of ammunition used, and I would presume that it is possible to have 'better' suppressors (e.g., longer, fatter, whatever) as well.

Here's something that's more akin to 'hollywood' suppressors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3r6WitUtWg

[Inca]

The recorded sound of the gun is always way "off". I am not sure what the reason is, it may be the limitation of the camcoder's mic. But event if you were playing this clip with sound turned all the way up it would be still just a fraction of a real thing.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

Mic's not on loud. Notice how brass falling on wood barely makes any noise.

[Kage]

I think we mircoscoping a bit here, Worrying about the sound of silencers is a little esoteric don't you think

if only a bit. introducing absolutely silent means of ranged combat with non-single-loading weapons effectively can turn a game into a stealth-puzzle. we don't want that. i don't, personally.

Just because you don't like "stealth puzzles" doesn't mean some others don't. Personally I don't understand how anyone can be satisfied with running and gunning their way through shooters or combat instances where stealth is a viable option. Especially when a few dozen head shots or knife stabs are all you need to clear a path to and from your objective. Because lets be honest, what sounds more bad ass? A group of gunmen busting into a joint and shooting from point A to point B, or a group of "ninjas" infiltrating the same place and stealthfuly making their way in and out with none the wiser? Again personally, the group of ninjas sounds more impressive to me then a bunch of gunmen.

Regardless, I preferred how Deus Ex Human Revolution handled it, it gave you multiple options on how to solve the same basic question. What do you do?

But I digress. Now while I don't want hellaciously large maps, I would prefer to steer clear of the Hollywood tropes, such as shooting fuel tanks/barrels with non-incendiary ammo will cause them to blow. and completely silent silencers.

And again I'd like to point out Deus Ex as a more or less good example for stealth mechanics, given that if you fired a "silent" weapon near someone, and didn't kill or knock them out in the process, they and anyone else in the room would hear it, and know something was up, if not the general area you were in, while long shots would only set someone off if they saw the target fall or you missed and hit a wall near them.

So I vote for more or less realistic silencers.

PS: I refuse to say "suppressors" as they were originally marketed as silencers and only later did the term "suppressor" come into use.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

I refuse to call Pepsi a cola because Coca Cola marketed cola as cola first.

You use desert punk as your avatar picture. If then, you should know that stealth is not about stabbing heads or silenced weapons taking people down one by one in a narrow corridor. It's about how cunning you can get. A noise itself is not going to cause an alarm. A person screaming bloody murder will, someone hearing the sound of bullets getting buried in walls will, etc. Noises can and would be able to be used to your advantage. I absolutely hated the way Dues Ex handled stealth. It's exactly like a stealth minigame.

[Van Der Muchbetter]

I absolutely hated the way Dues Ex handled stealth. It's exactly like a stealth minigame.

If you could gun your way through, what's your problem with stealth? Both ways are viable, so you can get invisible at some parts, while mowing everyone down on others. And thi is great. Player choice.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

Diversion, isolation of target, all these and many more are all part of stealth. Being invisible is not even a tiny fraction of it. Think Green Beret's tactics when operating behind enemy lines. That's stealth.

[cyrilverba]

If you could gun your way through, what's your problem with stealth? Both ways are viable, so you can get invisible at some parts, while mowing everyone down on others. And thi is great. Player choice.

dx, an awesome game and all, is a great example of developers not even slightly pushing, but ordering the player at gunpoint to use a stealthy/non-lethal approach and turning the game into a puzzle. want to develop the character? use stealth. want to get some extra rewards? use stealth. want to get additional info about the game world? use stealth. i was just my luck that i saw the protagonists of dx series as silent ninjas, otherwise i would be so mad..
ja2 was much more balanced in that aspect even with crippled silent weapons: you could use stealth to gain a tactical advantage and then engage the enemy on your own terms.

Diversion, isolation of target, all these and many more are all part of stealth. Being invisible is not even a tiny fraction of it. Think Green Beret's tactics when operating behind enemy lines. That's stealth.

exactly. if silencers are made to work realistically, who said there'll be no stealth? who said there'll be no knives, no crossbows, no laser weaponry, no camo, no silent entry, no rigging the whole place with explosives and wiping out all opposition with a single press of a button?

[Noceur]

O hai guise!
I just thought I'd post a pretty good video of a guy demonstrating and explaining a bit about suppressors. A lot of it's already been mentioned, but this one has good audio and stuff. Plus it's another video with rounds that are subsonic (.45 is inherently subsonic because of the load and pressure).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrYj7wQs ... re=related

The sound of the gun is far from silenced but it is very suppressed.
Anyway, I'm not sure about how realistic Wastelands is supposed to be. Maybe it should be a bit Hollywood-ish? I'm game either way, but I would prefer if - should suppressors be implemented - they just gave some bonuses (raised initative, longer time for the enemy to locate the player or to react?) rather than making the guns totally silent. If you kill someone next to an enemy, of course he should notice.. that has nothing to do with the gun, it's because he's standing next to him and can see and hear him go down.
If the gun is fired a few rooms away from an enemy or in another building, a suppressor could alert enemies but not to your exact position which would be a large advantage.

Since Wastelands is supposed to be 80's inspired/influenced and sci-fi, I don't see why there couldn't be a unique Silenced Gun, though. Or maybe a sub-sonic gauss/coil-gun.

[cmagruder]

The sound effects are great but I wouldn't like them at the expense of combat depth.

I care more about awesome sniping than I do how it sounds.

I'd think the theme of Wasteland suits the realism more though (barring the super high tech rare find type of weapon).

I'd also like to see improvised silencers.

[BentSea]

Unrealistic silencers actually make sense in every case of entertainment. Because a real silencer just sounds like a gun going off quietly, unless the game makes gun fire as loud a real gun fire, so that you have to wear ear protection while you play, the distinction between silenced gunfire and unsilenced gunfire in gameplay would be very difficult to distinguish audibly.

It's not realistic for a reason, and everyone knows the sound of a movie silencer as a movie silencer. It makes a lot of sense to do it that way from a design perspective.

[Crazy Wolf]

Why not both? Have realistic suppressors that are somewhat easily found, and are good at suppressing flash, muffling sound, and otherwise making guns a bit handier. Then have a handful of movie magic silencers, so that people can choose how realistic they want their "silencing" to be.

[suz]

Why not both?

I agree with BentSea's reasoning about game sounds... But overall I think it's best to let inxile decide which is best for the setting, and rely on modders to help you out on customization of sounds.

Unless we really want "[Magic] Suppressor of Really Loud 9mm Pistol" as in game items... Dismissing the fact the doubled sound sets increase amount of work needed and the samples themselves usually cost somewhat.

[Zombra]

Magically undetectable gunfire is a little silly. Enemies should not be oblivious, even if I am shooting a silenced gun. A silencer should make it harder to pinpoint me; that's about it.

Until this thread I never even considered a "stealth combat" approach for the Rangers.

[GodComplex]

That's cause stealth is dull. More gore is less bore and all. Though I wouldn't turn my nose up at a special DeLisle Carbine or a set of Welrod pistols, which were said to be so quiet that all you could hear was the pin striking the primer.