Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

[Lord Blade]

I'm jumping in with the Darklands or Megatraveller approach to character generation.
Sorry if it's been mentioned before, it's a big thread. :p

But those are some of the absolute best methods I've ever seen for making a character.

[rasattack]

I don't really care about Ranger PCs having interaction with each other, or having a game-defined personality.

One thing I really want to see is a number of character backgrounds from which you can optionally choose one, similar to Arcanum. Here's a list of backgrounds from that game (I recommend ignoring the fan-created ones): http://www.terra-arcanum.com/index.php?section=library&content=characterbank&id=bios. One of my favorite things about Arcanum is that among the large number of backgrounds are some that provide a small change to skills/attributes, and others provide large bonuses and penalties. In W2 these could be strange circumstances a character was raised under, or perhaps some mutation a character was born with.

This allows players to give their PCs some built-in story if they enjoy role-playing their party, or do some min-maxing if that is something they enjoy. I'd also love to see some NPCs have different reactions to the party if certain backgrounds or mutations are present. This would allow the developers the opportunity to include additional humorous or dangerous situations that gives a bit of variation to players on multiple playthroughs, as well as making it feel like character creation is a more than just assigning numbers.

If choosing nationality is still an option in W2, it would be nice to see varying NPC reactions due to that as well.

[Infinitron]

New crowdfunded game:
http://www.indiegogo.com/ashes-two-worlds-collide

Characterised Party:

In Ashes You get to create your own party of four characters but they won't just be a bunch of names and stats. For each member you'll also have to choose a personality (valiant leader, cynical wrangler, shy intellectual and eccentric weirdo) which will play a very important role in the game.

Party Dialogue:

Ashes is all about role playing a party rather than an individual with followers. As such the dialogue system lets you speak using the voice of any party member and use their individual skills as you see fit.

[scout]

Drool-" This strikes me as the kind of thing that's very easy to do in a pen-n-paper game, but very difficult to do well on a computer game. When doing PnP gaming, you can come up with whatever background you want, a computer game is necessarily limited, and that kind of background stuff will quickly grow stale, or simply be reduced to "what gives me the biggest advantage?"

While there was never any background stuff for the characters in the original, it never stopped me from making them up myself." -Drool

I 100% agree with you Drool! OP took way to many words to explain his concept. Yes I read it but damn OP think about what you are trying to get across and say it as concisely and as simply as possible. Believe it or not I love to read.

[OGK]

How is choosing your background explicitly at character creation any different than choosing skill and stat points which presumably come from your character's background? This idea doesn't make much sense to me.

[alexlovesinxile]

So picking "Boxer" won't increase your strength or endurance, it would just allocate the points and give you a background as well. So you could get the exact same effect gamewise by simply choosing to pump the points in manually. Excpet where it comes ot some dialogue specifics.

To be clear, this is the system I'm proposing... I think.

[paultakeda]

How is choosing your background explicitly at character creation any different than choosing skill and stat points which presumably come from your character's background? This idea doesn't make much sense to me.

Contextual background need not be about attribute or skill assignment but rather a different set of metrics. Gender was used in WL1 in-game, ad I'd like to see more use of such metrics to alter NPC interaction and change a quest's parameters.

Some stuff is just for player customization, like WL1's nationality selection; it does nothing in-game but it fleshes out character creation.

[Woolfe]

How is choosing your background explicitly at character creation any different than choosing skill and stat points which presumably come from your character's background? This idea doesn't make much sense to me.

Contextual background need not be about attribute or skill assignment but rather a different set of metrics. Gender was used in WL1 in-game, ad I'd like to see more use of such metrics to alter NPC interaction and change a quest's parameters.

Some stuff is just for player customization, like WL1's nationality selection; it does nothing in-game but it fleshes out character creation.

Indeed. having a background of "Medic training"(which puts X points in medic) and simply pumping X points into medic are exactly the same, until such time as you use them for "background" purposes.

Used to flesh out conversation topics, perhaps some with Medic training calls a broken arm a "Bone Fracture" whilst the guy who has just pumped points in calls it a broken arm.
Perhaps you have an NPC who is a bit "arrogant" and doesn't take "non-medically trained" personell seriously. So even tho you might have a better Medic/Doctor skill, he would disregard your comments anyway.

Lots of potential.

[Drool]

Indeed. having a background of "Medic training"(which puts X points in medic) and simply pumping X points into medic are exactly the same, until such time as you use them for "background" purposes.

Then it just becomes another avenue for min/maxing: "I can save 2 skill points by just picking this background! Score!"

That's why, if there's going to be something like this, I far prefer to crib from Fallout's Traits as opposed to their Perks. In other words, every choice gives a bonus and carries a penalty (potentially a bigger penalty than the bonus gives). So picking a Medic background might get you the Medic skill for free, but all of your combat skills progress at half pace.

[alexlovesinxile]

Then it just becomes another avenue for min/maxing: "I can save 2 skill points by just picking this background! Score!"

I realize you're talking to Woolfe now, but you had the same objection to my OP. So, I'd like to make a point of the following...

The implementation as described in my OP does not allow for the min/maxing scenario you just described.

To put it concisely: The system does not augment stats, but rather allocates them.

[Woolfe]

Indeed. having a background of "Medic training"(which puts X points in medic) and simply pumping X points into medic are exactly the same, until such time as you use them for "background" purposes.

Then it just becomes another avenue for min/maxing: "I can save 2 skill points by just picking this background! Score!"

That's why, if there's going to be something like this, I far prefer to crib from Fallout's Traits as opposed to their Perks. In other words, every choice gives a bonus and carries a penalty (potentially a bigger penalty than the bonus gives). So picking a Medic background might get you the Medic skill for free, but all of your combat skills progress at half pace.

See I disagree with that sort of background/trait in WL1. Thats constraining me where there was no constraint previously. If I created a medic in WL1, it was by pumping points in and nothing else. Min Maxing existed in WL1 and will always exist in a "choose" type skill allocation method.

In this case, the goal I was after was to give some depth to the character without it massively affecting the original methodology too much. Trying to keep with the original, but add to it.
(I am not against it in any game, just in WL)

[Drool]

To put it concisely: The system does not augment stats, but rather allocates them.

Meh. I'd prefer to allocate myself.

See I disagree with that sort of background/trait in WL1. Thats constraining me where there was no constraint previously. If I created a medic in WL1, it was by pumping points in and nothing else. Min Maxing existed in WL1 and will always exist in a "choose" type skill allocation method.

I would keep it optional as it was in Fallout. I'd also make it one of the last things you do during creation so your attributes and skills were already set. It would allow for customization as opposed to controlling the process. Of course, you'd want to limit it to one to prevent nonsense like taking both Skilled and Trained in Fallout 1 and totally gaming the whole system at the cost of 2 perks.

[Woolfe]

See I disagree with that sort of background/trait in WL1. Thats constraining me where there was no constraint previously. If I created a medic in WL1, it was by pumping points in and nothing else. Min Maxing existed in WL1 and will always exist in a "choose" type skill allocation method.

I would keep it optional as it was in Fallout. I'd also make it one of the last things you do during creation so your attributes and skills were already set. It would allow for customization as opposed to controlling the process. Of course, you'd want to limit it to one to prevent nonsense like taking both Skilled and Trained in Fallout 1 and totally gaming the whole system at the cost of 2 perks.

Not sure I quite understand you.

My concept was that the Background simply allocates points in an area. You then have the ability to modify that up or down (maybe limited).
As I said, mostly the idea was to allow for stories(and by extension quests) to be based off Stats, Skills, backgrounds, perks, traits and anything else similar.

So you create Character A and B
Character A chooses the "medic" background and gets 20 points in Medic, he then assigns a couple of extra points because he can.
Character B simply pumps 20+ points in to medic.

So there is no actual difference in the characters, except for the "background" element that A has.

As I said, the idea behind this was to simply create more "character" without creating an environment where you had to select these backgrounds. I am by no means against the backgrounds, but it was an attempt to resolve some differences with Mort2 whilst still appealing to people who want a bit more of the original experience like Krellan.

[Drool]

You have the order reversed. Let's use Wasteland as our template with Traits added on.

You make your character. First, you roll up his attributes. Then pick sex, then nationality, then you allocate skill points. You put 1 in medic (using 2 points) and 1 in clip pistol (1 point) and assign the rest where ever. Then you get to the Traits section where you can pick the Medic trait which gives you a bonus point to Medic (effectively 4 free points) and slows progression of your clip pistol skill.

Your second character starts the same way (naturally), but you want him to be just as good a medic without the hit to your combat skills. To get the same end medic skill, you'd need to spend 6 of your starting points instead of just 2, but your combat skills will progress faster than the medic's.

It still gives you the customization and specialization, but subtracts the whole, "You can only take this skill if you also take this background."

[Woolfe]

You have the order reversed. Let's use Wasteland as our template with Traits added on.

You make your character. First, you roll up his attributes. Then pick sex, then nationality, then you allocate skill points. You put 1 in medic (using 2 points) and 1 in clip pistol (1 point) and assign the rest where ever. Then you get to the Traits section where you can pick the Medic trait which gives you a bonus point to Medic (effectively 4 free points) and slows progression of your clip pistol skill.

Your second character starts the same way (naturally), but you want him to be just as good a medic without the hit to your combat skills. To get the same end medic skill, you'd need to spend 6 of your starting points instead of just 2, but your combat skills will progress faster than the medic's.

It still gives you the customization and specialization, but subtracts the whole, "You can only take this skill if you also take this background."

I'm saying its a "background" not a trait.
So you do attributes,
Then Sex
Nationality,
Backgrounds - Medical background
Assign Skill points (some of which have been autoassigned by backgrounds, but they can still be changed)
Then Yes, if there are traits/perks or whatever, then you add them. Trait - "Natural diagnostic ability" +4 to Medic

I am saying background is a completely seperate thing, that has a primary purpose of defining your characters "History" the assigning of skill points is just an indication of that background.

[alexlovesinxile]

Meh. I'd prefer to allocate myself.

Right. Me too. That's why the system also allows for and counts on you allocating stats yourself.

Two issues here...

On the issue of augmentation vs allocation, the system allocates.

On the issue of stats first or narrative first, the system allows for both.

[paultakeda]

I'm with Wolfe on this one. Background metrics should stay separate from the attribute/skill allocation system. Because of this, I don't think a medic background is a viable thing to pick. Adding a skill point to medic implies this without a need for a background picklist as you'd now be stating the same thing twice when background should be a separate "stat".

The picks for background should be agnostic to attributes and skills, much like gender and nationality were in WL1.

I would keep gender; Ethnicity/nationality, this could be broken down to mother's ethnicity/nationality and father's ethnicity/nationality (and both can be tagged as unknown); Birth place (Ranger Center, Needles, Vegas, etc. including Unknown). Height, weight, possibly even skin color (if being ethnically one thing but mistaken for another affects particular lines of interaction or quests).

I also include in background the Fallout concepts of traits and quirks, though I don't know just how much of this should be included as some modify attributes and skills.

So background is any metric that is not captured by attributes and skills but can have in-game effects OR is simply there to give the player some stuff to pick to flesh out the character. And if the player chooses not to use any of it, I'd say they have to, the minimum, pick gender and nationality as an homage to WL1 .

The last metric has no in-game effect: it is a large textbox called Personal History. This one is for those who want to write a novel about the character.

[alexlovesinxile]

Adding a skill point to medic implies this without a need for a background picklist as you'd now be stating the same thing twice

No, not really. Narrative can go well beyond skill checks. Such is the appeal of the following...

The last metric has no in-game effect: it is a large textbox called Personal History. This one is for those who want to write a novel about the character.

But the whole point of putting a mechanic behind "humanizing stories" is to simulate the table top experience of having other players and dungeon masters who can take a personal history, and form a narrative through which further play develops that history into a current story.

How do you establish a characters aspiration to unite the wastes via stats alone? How would a player opt in or out of that character element? How would the player know to expect that of their character without some narrative element supplied by the game on the character creation screen?

Yes, you can just avoid doing it. I'm proposing a different solution ( which tackles the above questions in the OP ).

[paultakeda]

But the whole point of putting a mechanic behind "humanizing stories" is to simulate the table top experience of having other players and dungeon masters who can take a personal history, and form a narrative through which further play develops that history into a current story.

Yes, that's why background metrics should be their own entity in the MSPE system rather than affect attributes and skills. By making a background selection allocate attributes and skills you have done nothing but create a macro to allocate points. I'd rather those metrics be used for something else to color the gaming experience.

How do you establish a characters aspiration to unite the wastes via stats alone? How would a player opt in or out of that character element? How would the player know to expect that of their character without some narrative element supplied by the game on the character creation screen?

Stats like gender, nationality, birthplace, etc. establish and describe far more than you seem to think. The personal narrative of a character can never be captured and implemented in a game but a character sheet can leave space for it for the player's satisfaction. Demographics as I describe them can have a direct influence on game interaction.

[alexlovesinxile]

By making a background selection allocate attributes and skills you have done nothing but create a macro to allocate points.

Well that's utter hyperbole.

The point of the 'archetype' is to supply a narrative that builds upon the stats you pick. It's not merely putting points into medicine and having your narrative amount to, "You're good at medicine."

Stats like gender, nationality, birthplace, etc. establish and describe far more than you seem to think.

If any of those were to provide a narrative to the degree to which I'm proposing, then the only difference between your proposal and mine is that mine tells you more about your character up front. Maybe that's not a good thing. However, your point seems to be that these things have narrative repercussions, as oppose to (virtually) none. I agree.

The personal narrative of a character can never be captured and implemented in a game but a character sheet can leave space for it for the player's satisfaction.

Considering it's just as impossible to completely replace a personal narrative as it is to completely capture one: 1) I don't think it a fools errand to emulate personal narrative, and 2) If the archetype model were implemented, space for personal narrative would still be there. It's a game. Games emulate. Question is: to what extent?