Don't submit this game to ESRB/PEGI/etc.!

[Fishos]

ESRB and PEGI are money making scheme and an indirect way to censor art. Leave the game UNRATED. Don't pay those groups a dime. Like you said, you got an army of fans to do the marketing for you. People who would buy this game won't buy it based on its rating anyway!

[Noble]

The last I checked it was a requirement to get games rated before retailers and Digital Distributer's could sell them.

[infestor]

this has been discussed in these forums couple of times before. i will pass the ball to Brother None but afaik he had written something like this: steam accepts unrated indie games. which is the main focus (digital distribution).

[Mandemon]

Some retailers don't accept unrated games. Besides, ESRB/PEGI might slap on their rating, but it doesn't mean shit in itself. Someone might still buy it or sell it.

Censorship is done by the makers, not by ESRB/PEGI. ESRB/PEGI simply use their guidelines(which can be seen online) and assign a rating they feel is closest. Doesn't mean that the developer must change the game.

EDIT START

FOR GODS SAKE MY PREFERENCE OF ART IS NOT POINT OF THIS THREAD. DON'T QUOTE ME AND TRY TO CONVINCE ME WHAT ART IS. THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO YOU BY ANNOYED GEEK IN THE BASEMENT.

EDIT END

Also, art is horrible justification. If you make something to make money, it's not art. Wasteland 2 maybe be artistic, but art is will be not. You want to see "art" game? Go play The Void or The Path. BioWare tried to hide behind whole "art" idea after ME3 and it made them no good in eyes of the customers.

[Azriel]

I also vote for an unrated/uncensored game.

[homeslice82]

Some retailers don't accept unrated games. Besides, ESRB/PEGI might slap on their rating, but it doesn't mean shit in itself. Someone might still buy it or sell it.

Censorship is done by the makers, not by ESRB/PEGI. ESRB/PEGI simply use their guidelines(which can be seen online) and assign a rating they feel is closest. Doesn't mean that the developer must change the game.

Also, art is horrible justification. If you make something to make money, it's not art. Wasteland 2 maybe be artistic, but art is will be not. You want to see "art" game? Go play The Void or The Path.

Damien Hirst would like a word with you.

[Mandemon]

Some retailers don't accept unrated games. Besides, ESRB/PEGI might slap on their rating, but it doesn't mean shit in itself. Someone might still buy it or sell it.

Censorship is done by the makers, not by ESRB/PEGI. ESRB/PEGI simply use their guidelines(which can be seen online) and assign a rating they feel is closest. Doesn't mean that the developer must change the game.

Also, art is horrible justification. If you make something to make money, it's not art. Wasteland 2 maybe be artistic, but art is will be not. You want to see "art" game? Go play The Void or The Path.

Damien Hirst would like a word with you.

He can talk how much he likes. That is my opinion. ME3 destroyed my trust in whole "art" argument. Art is in the eye of the audience. If I say it's art, it's art in my eyes. If I say it's not art, it's not art in my eyes. Some else (who also is completely wrong because I can't be wrong, thus if s/he disagrees s/he is automatically wrong because logically to him/her to be right I must be wrong which is simply ridiculousness) might say it's art. So it's art in his eyes.

To me, Picasso is nothing else but someone who painted bunch of meaningless pictures. It's not art. However, some other guy found it "art" and paid way too much money. That's good for Picasso. Doesn't change the fact that it's not art to me.

Also who is Damien Hirst and why should I care about his opinion?

[Fishos]

Also, art is horrible justification. If you make something to make money, it's not art. Wasteland 2 maybe be artistic, but art is will be not. You want to see "art" game? Go play The Void or The Path. BioWare tried to hide behind whole "art" idea after ME3 and it made them no good in eyes of the customers.

That is a very extreme opinion. The idea that artists should be "humble" and not make money is outraging. We live in a society in which money plays an essential part, unfortunately. I don't think Brian Fargo wants to make Wasteland 2 because he thinks it will make him rich.

Also, about ESRB not censoring art - notice I said "indirectly". I know they aren't a straight-out censorship body.

[Brother None]

this has been discussed in these forums couple of times before. i will pass the ball to Brother None but afaik he had written something like this: steam accepts unrated indie games. which is the main focus (digital distribution).

I don't know what Steam's rules are exactly, I just know there are games on there with no rating, indie games like Avadon.

But yeah, this is one of those decisions that may well be steered by the reality of getting the game in with (digital) retailers, just like they'll likely have to add Steam achievements.

[Azriel]

this has been discussed in these forums couple of times before. i will pass the ball to Brother None but afaik he had written something like this: steam accepts unrated indie games. which is the main focus (digital distribution).

I don't know what Steam's rules are exactly, I just know there are games on there with no rating, indie games like Avadon.

But yeah, this is one of those decisions that may well be steered by the reality of getting the game in with (digital) retailers, just like they'll likely have to add Steam achievements.

If it can get on as an indie game with no rating, that would be best. Steam is the biggest, but what about other DD services like gog?

[homeslice82]

He can talk how much he likes. That is my opinion. ME3 destroyed my trust in whole "art" argument. Art is in the eye of the audience. If I say it's art, it's art in my eyes. If I say it's not art, it's not art in my eyes. Some else (who also is completely wrong because I can't be wrong, thus if s/he disagrees s/he is automatically wrong because logically to him/her to be right I must be wrong which is simply ridiculousness) might say it's art. So it's art in his eyes.

lol

That's one of the worst arguments I've ever read. You beg the question as to the definition of art, and then toss in some sloppy subjectivism that practically refutes itself. But I'm not going to debate with you about it. Believe what you want. Just know that it's gibberish.

Also who is Damien Hirst and why should I care about his opinion?

He's the richest and most famous living artist.

[Mandemon]

He can talk how much he likes. That is my opinion. ME3 destroyed my trust in whole "art" argument. Art is in the eye of the audience. If I say it's art, it's art in my eyes. If I say it's not art, it's not art in my eyes. Some else (who also is completely wrong because I can't be wrong, thus if s/he disagrees s/he is automatically wrong because logically to him/her to be right I must be wrong which is simply ridiculousness) might say it's art. So it's art in his eyes.

lol

That's one of the worst arguments I've ever read. You beg the question as to the definition of art, and then toss in some sloppy subjectivism that practically refutes itself. But I'm not going to debate with you about it. Believe what you want. Just know that it's gibberish.

I don't need you to argue with me. It's a subjective view. I said my opinion. You have right(even if you are self-evidently irrelevantly completely and utterly wrong) to disagree with me.

Also who is Damien Hirst and why should I care about his opinion?

He's the richest and most famous living artist.

Never heard of him before, what sort of artist? Movies? Paintings? Games? Music? Cause "artist" can mean a lot of things. Personally I play bass guitar, does that make me an artist? Or musician?

Also, I bet if I say "Damien Hirst" to anyone I know they are going to be "Damien who?"

[Brother None]

Also, I bet if I say "Damien Hirst" to anyone I know they are going to be "Damien who?"

Maybe? He's pretty damn famous. Mention that stupid diamond-studded skull of his, or the formaldehyde shark. He basically makes overly expensive "art" that is only art because people call it art.

Anyway, that's not really on topic. Move along.

[Rune]

Censorship is done by the makers, not by ESRB/PEGI. ESRB/PEGI simply use their guidelines(which can be seen online) and assign a rating they feel is closest. Doesn't mean that the developer must change the game.

I do think this as a valid observation. Except it might be more of a duality thing. Drop the rating boards!

[Mandemon]

Censorship is done by the makers, not by ESRB/PEGI. ESRB/PEGI simply use their guidelines(which can be seen online) and assign a rating they feel is closest. Doesn't mean that the developer must change the game.

I do think this as a valid observation. Except it might be more of a duality thing. Drop the rating boards!

Heh, nobody is forced to make the rating.They were wise and made them non-required. In this case, it's the vendors who make them required, not the ESRB/PEGI themselves.

Compare and contrast to Comics Code that used to defined what was allowed in comics and what was not, it got killed when it became too strict. In effect, Stan Lee wanted to make serious comic about drugs, wanted to show their results in realistic matters. According to The Code, no narcotics were to be ever to be shown, no matter what. So Marvel manned up told code to go screw itself and pushed comic out unrated. Later others started to man up. However, main killing blow was the change in market. Stores that didn't need to uphold the code were able to secure the market from newsstands that were required to uphold the code.

Here, such enforcing no longer works, so it is not even attempted. So rating is voluntary, it only helps vendors to choose what games to sell and buyers to choose what to buy(since they can see what the game contains)

Then there was The Hays Code for films. Hays code was actually mandatory for films for long time. So was comics code, although in comics case it was Archie who pushed the code on others. We got vendors pushing the ratings now, not he developers.

[MQDuck]

To me, Picasso is nothing else but someone who painted bunch of meaningless pictures. It's not art.

You can have your own opinions, but his art had meaning whether you care to recognize it or not. Maybe you've already taken a course on modern art or read about it or whatever and still don't see any value in his art. That's possible. But if not, I highly encourage you to do so.

Personally, that's why I love modern art. Previous art forms just reflected the images they meant to express. Modern art adds meaning by presenting their images in interesting, critical ways.

[Mandemon]

To me, Picasso is nothing else but someone who painted bunch of meaningless pictures. It's not art.

You can have your own opinions, but his art had meaning whether you care to recognize it or not. Maybe you've already taken a course on modern art or read about it or whatever and still don't see any value in his art. That's possible. But if not, I highly encourage you to do so.

Personally, that's why I love modern art. Previous art forms just reflected the images they meant to express. Modern art adds meaning by presenting their images in interesting, critical ways.

Then please, please tell me how dog shit in a pan represents "Suffering of emotional lack in life" or whatever that damn tour guide explained. Modern arts add no more or less meaning what old arts have. Like I said before, "art" is in the eye of the audience. Not in the text books which explain it. In immortal words of Roger Ebert: "If you have to ask what it symbolizes, it didn't."

Anyway this has nothing to do with ESRB or PEGI rating, which, once again, are purely optional. Unlike Comics Code and Hayes Code, ESRB and PEGI do not tell what games need to contain and what is allowed to be shown. You make game, present it to them, they check it out and give it the rating based on their guidelines. Sometimes publisher/developer do changes so that the rating changes, so they submit modified version and SERB/PEGi re-evaluate the game. At no point does ESRB or PEGi tell "you can't show that in games!" like Comics Code did to comics or Hayes Code did to movies.

[BentSea]

Wait.. I'd like to hear from a developer.. is this really an option? Is it possible to just not submit it? no.. wait.. if you have to in order to sell in stores.. they are creating boxed versions of this game, and collector's editions. I think inXile is planning on selling it in retail outlets. But if not, man, it'd be cool for it to just not have a rating. I really don't care for bodies like the ESRB that really unfairly rate games, and clearly give larger companies the chance to lobby for the ratings they want and abuse the rating power with smaller companies.. just.. like.. this one...

[Drool]

I think inXile is planning on selling it in retail outlets.

Yes. They'd like to get paid for the games they create.

As has been discussed ad nausium in the M/AO thread(s), it's pretty hard to hit the level of AO unless you're aiming for it. It's going to be fine.

[Mandemon]

Wait.. I'd like to hear from a developer.. is this really an option? Is it possible to just not submit it? no.. wait.. if you have to in order to sell in stores.. they are creating boxed versions of this game, and collector's editions. I think inXile is planning on selling it in retail outlets. But if not, man, it'd be cool for it to just not have a rating. I really don't care for bodies like the ESRB that really unfairly rate games, and clearly give larger companies the chance to lobby for the ratings they want and abuse the rating power with smaller companies.. just.. like.. this one...

You don't need to submit it for rating. It's just that retailers demand it. ESRB/PEGU wouldn't give a shit whenever or not WAsteland 2 would be rated.

EDIT

Of course you can bypass entire retailers part and sell the game directly, no one is forcing them. It's just that most retailers refuse AO games and those few who accept them sell them from "under the table", AKA you need to specifically ask for them

But like Drool said, Wasteland 2 is unlikely to get AO, I mean, team has to go into either right out porn territory or... violence porn. Extreme graphical details. So yeah, Mature is what this game most likely gets and as far as I know no-one important has problem with that.