Good Crafting system

[krellen]

The Rangers were originally Army Engineers. It's retarded to think they do not know how to build things.

That doesn't mean the game needs a crafting system, of course. If something needs to be built, hand wave the gathering of junk to build it, make a MacGuffin quest to get parts maybe, but you don't need to include a crafting system for this.

[Thrin]

For those who are totally for crafting or are 'okay' with crafting I have a question:

How important is crafting to the game? Would you not buy a game if it had no crafting in it? Conversely, would you buy a game solely for crafting? Does the lack of crafting take-away from the game experience?

If you were building the game on a limited timeframe and with limited resources, would you devote a significant portion of those resources and time to developing a crafting system?

After seeing some of the responses in this thread and knowing that there is a significant portion of gamers who wouldn't even bother with a crafting system even if it was implemented, what would be more important to you:

A fully developed town with hours of questlines and interactions or a crafting system?

What is your reasoning? (For example, a single town may add 5-10 hours to a game whereas a crafting system may encourage players to replay the entire game again.)

[ffordesoon]

Crafting is something I enjoy, but it's secondary to meaningful content in other areas. So I'd say that if it came down to crafting versus more meaningful content not based around crafting, I'd choose more content every time.

But that's me.

(Also, I gotta say, I'd totally play a post-apocalyptic merchant game. And a Wall Street sim. And a bunch of other non-combat RPGs. Always wanted an RPG where you play as a diplomat, for example.)

[suz]

What is your reasoning? (For example, a single town may add 5-10 hours to a game whereas a crafting system may encourage players to replay the entire game again.)

My reasoning is simple; It makes no sense to have no crafting at all, you're going into combat with equal in strength adversaries, where life is the stake but you can't make a 2 meter detour to pick up some broken binoculars and make a scope? Or disassemble a dozen unused ammo rounds and make a tiny "flashbang" to distract enemies? Life should be cheap in wasteland, except for the person whose life it is.

I'm not looking for crafting that requires grinding some ore, smelting the ore, <insert hundred more steps> and getting a 10mm pistol like the average mmo does. That's kind of pointless(although mods can pick it up from there); however, even a lousy "crafting"(which was basically combine an item + up to 4 parts to make stuff) like in JA2, where you could make some custom mods such as long barrel, xray vision, AP-reducing trinkets, etc. for your guns would bring a lot of immersion.

A town is nice, but it's a one-time throughout the whole campaign. Crafting can be used a lot more often and can add a whole more than 5-10 hours of quests to game play.

Especially now that we're getting the mod kit I think it's essential for crafting to be there, even as a stripped base it would be modded fairly heavily. It opens a lot more possibilities - specialized ammo, custom made weapons, improve ranger HQ etc. While another town is nice but I seriously think crafting has a lot more to add than just another town, even in docile state ready for modders to arrive.

[Shady314]

Well, I guess we should dismiss the entire SWAT team, Special Ops and every mercenary group in the entire world since these soldiers obviously couldn't craft their own guns.

What in the world are you talking about? I just said why a team of Desert Rangers may want to make their own stuff that not it was a requirement for a special forces team to craft their own gear. That's not even a good strawman. Please try harder.

Yes, they could repair toasters, crack safes and blow up walls but I sure don't see "Build House", "Manufacture Marine Propulsion System" or "Howitzer Production" in that list of skills...

Slightly better strawman. Nobody is suggesting they spend their time crafting things that would be mostly useless to them.
You said building stuff should be left to experts. The Rangers are the remnants of Army Engineers. Building stuff is an important skill/asset in a wasteland.

Yes, I meet lots of craftsman. But none of them are Desert Rangers. Have you met any Desert Rangers whom are craftsmen? Thought not.

HEHEHE WHAT? I don't know any desert rangers. I do have friends in the armed forces and a few them have hobbies. One knows carpentry and another works on his motorcycle. He could probably with time and supplies restore a motorcycle from crap to working. Could be useful to repair vehicles in a post apocalyptic setting yes?

That assumption is totally opposite, actually. If there is crafting, NOTHING will be junk. And that will lead to hoarding. Which is when the headache starts: goddamn micromanagement...

You are not understanding the term junk. Plenty of stuff is still junk in games with crafting systems. You move past building pipe guns and the stuff you use to build pipe guns becomes junk. As items you can craft become useless all that items used for crafting become useless and clutter your inventory and the game.

[Headcrusher]

Crafting is important for immersion. The world feels more real when you can change it somehow. Crafting is just one way to make a change to the game world (using up resources, creating new items) .

That said, crafting is not always appropriate in all settings. In a fantasy game, it makes sense to have a deep crafting system as just about every item was made by hand and someone trained well enough could reasonably expect to make useful items at a high quality. Think- Skyrim

In a modern or futuristic setting this level of crafting becomes impractical. Most modern items are mass-produced using machinery in large factories. Only a handful of items could be hand-made and be of decent quality. Even in a post-apocalypse, a scavenged revolver is a better weapon (in most cases) than a hand-made zip gun. Also the effort to obtain may be much lower. Scavenging and re-purposing are "crafting" after a nuclear holocaust.

So as much as I like crafting in games, I don't think it's appropriate for W2. Maybe in some light tongue-in-cheek way (like in fallout 3) but nothing deep or complex. I can see it as a device to drive a story (build an object to solve a puzzle) or as a way to customize your character or home in some way.

[suz]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members/abu-zolfiqar.html

You don't need a lot to make AK47, for example, futuristic doesn't mean everyone's suddenly gone retarded. I think it's unreasonable to expect plasma rifles built on knee with a couple of rocks, but an ak has been, and will be continued to be built handmade. I also find it unbelievable you can't ever find a weapon that's missing a wooden stock/a bit bent near magazine receiver etc that you could repair with minor effort.

[psychobilly]

Please no crafting.

The original Wasteland did not have crafting, and the immersion was not lacking. Building things is fine, but I sure as hell do not want to gather things and craft them like the typical modern RPG.

I'm sorry to see so many fans of pointless grind... crafting is just a scam to divert you from the fact there is usually crappy content.

[Charlie Quinn]

I love crafting. A good crafting system adds another 20+ hours of enjoyment for me. I like finding things and making things, and going off just to find things and then coming home to joyfully make things.

I mean, I really love crafting.

But I know not everyone does, so if this is cleverly implemented (please, please let it be cleverly implemented!), it shouldn't cripple a player who just isn't into it.

[Drool]

The original Wasteland did not have crafting

Sure it did! Combine "locked door" with "RPG-7" to build "open door"!

More seriously, it did have one bit of crafting: antitoxin.

[BlackGauntlet]

What in the world are you talking about? I just said why a team of Desert Rangers may want to make their own stuff that not it was a requirement for a special forces team to craft their own gear. That's not even a good strawman. Please try harder.

I can't try harder if you can't provide a good example of why a pre-Apocalypse equivalent counterpart to the Desert Rangers could not replicate.

Slightly better strawman. Nobody is suggesting they spend their time crafting things that would be mostly useless to them. You said building stuff should be left to experts. The Rangers are the remnants of Army Engineers. Building stuff is an important skill/asset in a wasteland.

HEHEHE WHAT? I don't know any desert rangers. I do have friends in the armed forces and a few them have hobbies. One knows carpentry and another works on his motorcycle. He could probably with time and supplies restore a motorcycle from crap to working. Could be useful to repair vehicles in a post apocalyptic setting yes?

Wow... you sound as though it's ludicrous for me to assume you don't know any Desert Rangers like I'm supposed to know that you're typin in your underwear or something.... I'm in the Armed Forces myself. No Desert Rangers here. Which one are you talking about? Iraqi Special Ops? I too have a hobby: making my own bows & arrows. Hobbies are not a prerequisite to join the Armed Forces, though. And my bows still can't rival most of the industrial ones. So, yeah. leave that to the experts.

You are not understanding the term junk. Plenty of stuff is still junk in games with crafting systems. You move past building pipe guns and the stuff you use to build pipe guns becomes junk. As items you can craft become useless all that items used for crafting become useless and clutter your inventory and the game.

How would you know the stuff to build pipe guns can't be used to craft other stuff? And if you don't know, you will keep it, just in case, wouldn't you?

The Rangers were originally Army Engineers. It's retarded to think they do not know how to build things.

Actually, it would be retarded to think that Army Engineers could "craft" anything. Digging shellscrapes? Sure. Assembling bridges? Of course. But they are DEFINITELY not artisans. Yes, my Engineer friends in the Army could vouch for that.

[Kage]

I'm no fan of crafting myself, especially the full bore ground up manufacturing that you see in a lot in modern rpgs, but I do love me some accessories, like scopes, silencers, and bigger magazines (clips). Some might consider this "crafting" but personally I don't, so if we can agree that "crafting" is the "ground up manufacturing or assemblage of equipment from parts found, with or without schematics" rather than the modification or addition of accessories to already functioning equipment, I'd be happy to support a no "crafting" push.

Otherwise, me and my modded out AK47 are going to start a counter thread elsewhere.

[Punky]

Mod your guns and survival gear? Yes.

Full blown crafting? No.

I even found the FONV crafting aggravating and unnecessary. Bethesda seems to feel the need to populate a world with tons of junk. I don't think it's necessary.

[nathanknaack]

I'd prefer an upgrade or customization system to a pure crafting system. Instead of cobbling together bits a pieces until I create the second best weapon in the game, I'd rather be able to add a scope, expanded magazine, shoulder stock, laser sight, etc, to the gun.

Then, when I stumble upon a better weapon, I can either add that stuff again or remove those pieces from my old gun and apply them.

Why not let me paint my leather armor red, add spikes to my gloves, or buy a collar for my dog?

[BlackGauntlet]

I'm all for modification/customization. Crafting? Nada. I always cringe at how it is done. It's both unrealistically simple and unnecessarily tedious.

[BentSea]

I really disagree with this... crafting has added a lot of immersion to some very good games in the past. It adds a level of immersion and participation in the world to be able to create goods with value from scraps and foraging, and also to be able to create and manufacture real objects. If you don't like it, don't do it. But crafting can be very very cool. For example, Gothic 1, Arx Fatalis, etc. I mean, i don't want them forcing it into the game if it doesn't fit inXile's vision, but I don't want them to avoid it on principle...

[BlackGauntlet]

I really disagree with this... crafting has added a lot of immersion to some very good games in the past. It adds a level of immersion and participation in the world to be able to create goods with value from scraps and foraging, and also to be able to create and manufacture real objects. If you don't like it, don't do it. But crafting can be very very cool. For example, Gothic 1, Arx Fatalis, etc. I mean, i don't want them forcing it into the game if it doesn't fit inXile's vision, but I don't want them to avoid it on principle...

Yeah. I hope they avoid it on all accounts except principle.

[BentSea]

So you want them to avoid it for every reason except for them wanting to?

[Lantander]

If there's crafting, I'd prefer it to be done by specialist npcs who actually know what they're doing - and who do take days or weeks to finish the stuff. Building stuff isn't something to do on the march sitting at your campfire. You'd need tools, ingredients, time, peace & quiet, ...

And if there is a plant with healing properties - let characters be able to chew it raw for some healing, or bring it to a doctor who can make (more effective) medicine out of it by drying, grinding, mixing - again something that takes time. So he should accept the ingredients, give you some money for it and finish a 'medicine bag' two days later. With the money you can buy what he's got in stock right now, but if all of that is already in your backpack, you're out of luck.

There really shouldn't be any nonsensical crafting recipes like for example in this comic:
http://www.awkwardzombie.com/index.php? ... mic=010410

[suz]

I"d prefer "crafting" small, basic items being done on the fly - duct tape doesn't take days,
say taping 2 ammo clips for faster reload wouldn't need a rocket scientist on full time job.

If you can send over engineers/scientists you find/rescue throughout wasteland towards HQ,
then it would make sense that "large" or complex items should be queued at HQ, provided
you have resources and tools.

Resource(and perhaps tools) gathering should be as unobtrusive as possible as i described earlier.

Even if there isn't full fledged crafting in vanilla game, just the interface and engine
capabilities would suffice for when we get mod kit to playout our crafting fantasies.