What makes a currency viable?

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch:
Unless there are factories stamping out electronics, I don't see how gold is valuable as a material. Using it as a currency doesn't make sense if you already have paper money. etc..etc..

What makes any inherent value currency viable is people's perception that it IS valuable. Prior to Coinage [Advanced Civilization anyone?], pretty much the only practical usage for gold and silver is ornamentation. Yet, in its raw or cast ingot form "everybody knows" that they have value in and of themselves. Even when cast as coins, the coins were trusted because they were made of gold or silver. Nothing has changed concerning the metal's utility; you could still melt them down and turn them into ornaments. But you can look at a gold coin (or a gold anything) and recognize that it IS valuable -- because everybody else is thinking the same way. In comparison, you could look at a wooden "plug" nickel and you'll be thinking, "Can I actually buy something with this?"

After the Apocalypse, gold and silver in _any_ form WILL still be viewed as something valuable, and therefore act as a medium of exchange. You can't negate a kind of thinking that has been in place for literally thousands of years.

[Mandemon]

It can also be a silent agreement.

"You can use those coins for currency, even if there is no government backing them. We used them before and I see no reason why to drop it just to make out life difficult."

[krellen]

Funny how Prometheus quoted me, when I'm on CaptainPatch's side. The evidence that "mining silver" returned dollar money to the Rangers in Wasteland is concrete proof that the designers of the original game considered precious metals the same as money.

[GodComplex]

_Technically_ you are correct. The melting point of brass is between 900 and 940 degrees Celsius. The average temperature of a campfire ranges between 900 and 1100 degrees Celsius. [Trivia: The tip of a burning cigarette burns at 900 degrees Celsius.] HOWEVER, to manufacture casings and then turn them into bullets, you would need raw brass (any brass musical instrument will do) and the very precisely shaped molds for the exact caliber cartridge that you need. And keep in mind that while pouring molten brass, the fumes given off are poisonous. Once you have your castings, they are still NOT bullets.

Ever seen steel cartridges? Ya can't reload them, but they still function. Can also be done with bronze, which we've been using since the bronze age.

Next you will need _smokeless_ gunpowder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder), something which is not readily available unless there is some substantial industry base providing it.

Incorrect. You need smokeless powder to cycle automatic firearms in their current incarnation. Which can be accounted for by adjusting the K value on the bolt/slide. Any mechanically cycled firearm will work with black powder and we've had those since before the America Civil war. You're just not going to get the muzzle velocity/energy you would which smokeless granules.

Lastly, you would need a center-fire primer (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t531999/) which absolutely requires an industrial base to be produced. Compared to those three elements, casting the actual lead bullet is child's play.

Ever heard of a percussion cap? It was developed by a monk. It's just a different potassium salt.

But my point is that it's not terribly difficult to manufacture something that's been around for over 500 years given the large amount of raw materials available in burnt out cities.

As a side note, I swear we're going to get put on some FBI watch list for these discussions.

What makes any inherent value currency viable is people's perception that it IS valuable. Prior to Coinage [Advanced Civilization anyone?], pretty much the only practical usage for gold and silver is ornamentation. Yet, in its raw or cast ingot form "everybody knows" that they have value in and of themselves. Even when cast as coins, the coins were trusted because they were made of gold or silver. Nothing has changed concerning the metal's utility; you could still melt them down and turn them into ornaments. But you can look at a gold coin (or a gold anything) and recognize that it IS valuable -- because everybody else is thinking the same way. In comparison, you could look at a wooden "plug" nickel and you'll be thinking, "Can I actually buy something with this?"

After the Apocalypse, gold and silver in _any_ form WILL still be viewed as something valuable, and therefore act as a medium of exchange. You can't negate a kind of thinking that has been in place for literally thousands of years.

Ever wonder why some people think that humans are rational with capacity for future planing, despite several thousand years of history to contradict that? No one really knows why gold became valuable, but it always has. We can speculate, rationalize, and hypothesize all we want, but it always just has been. It's odd. What's really odd is it's worth more than platinum atm, you can't explain that.

[CaptainPatch]

Ever seen steel cartridges? Ya can't reload them, but they still function. Can also be done with bronze, which we've been using since the bronze age.

Next you will need _smokeless_ gunpowder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder), something which is not readily available unless there is some substantial industry base providing it.

Incorrect. You need smokeless powder to cycle automatic firearms in their current incarnation. Which can be accounted for by adjusting the K value on the bolt/slide. Any mechanically cycled firearm will work with black powder and we've had those since before the America Civil war. You're just not going to get the muzzle velocity/energy you would which smokeless granules.

I used to be a Civil War reenactor; I know first-hand how black powder WILL foul a weapon, usually within 50 rounds being fired. Load up an M-16 with black powder rounds and just see if you can make it through the entire magazine. That's what makes black powder impractical for modern automatic and semi-automatic weapons.

Lastly, you would need a center-fire primer (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t531999/) which absolutely requires an industrial base to be produced. Compared to those three elements, casting the actual lead bullet is child's play.

Ever heard of a percussion cap? It was developed by a monk. It's just a different potassium salt.

Yup. Manufactured by the millions when percussion caps finally came into their own during the ACW, in factories. Only took 350 years or so before the technology was able to properly use that monk's formula. In factories, which were dedicated to making that one product.

But my point is that it's not terribly difficult to manufacture something that's been around for over 500 years given the large amount of raw materials available in burnt out cities.

I have no doubt that in a post-Apocalyptic environment, black powder weapons could be made from scratch. Heck, there would probably be thousands already floating around already, left over from historical reenactors. But the Achille's heel would be those percussion caps. LOTS of people blowing themselves up if they tried to make their own at home; very volatile stuff. (Which also emits poisonous fumes.) And to be useful, a user would need hundreds of them, each of which is an Oops waiting to happen. So that means stepping back to flintlocks, which are also doable, for those that know how to make them. And instead of mass production, those would require pre-Eli Whitney interchangeable parts hand-crafting. Slllloooowww. Anyway, it takes a very specific kind of primer to create a cartridge usable in a modern, unmodified weapon. And unless you have a functional dedicated factory, they simply won't be available in the kinds of quantities needed to make NEW usable ammo. In the pre-Apocalypse, maybe one person in 10,000 (at best) had the ability to make the necessary mods or built the right weapons to spec from scratch -- provided they had the pre-made parts already in stock. After the bombs dropped, how many of them would have survived? And I can easily imagine that ALL of them would be survivalists. Given just how much advantage it gives them to have just about the only weapons _with_ ammo, would they _really_ want to keep pouring useful ammo into the surrounding community? If anything in the "yes" category, they would be willing to sell single-shot black powder weapons, but they would definitely keep the Good Stuff for themselves.

[Emmy Lou]

No one really knows why gold became valuable, but it always has. We can speculate, rationalize, and hypothesize all we want, but it always just has been. It's odd. What's really odd is it's worth more than platinum atm, you can't explain that.

Oh, this one's easy, you see, I've been watching Ancient Aliens marathons on History channel and we are programmed to desire gold because our alien masters genetically modified us to- hey, why are you guys putting this jacket on me? And where are you dragging me to? WHERE ARE YOU DRAGGING ME TOOOOOO~

[GodComplex]

No one really knows why gold became valuable, but it always has. We can speculate, rationalize, and hypothesize all we want, but it always just has been. It's odd. What's really odd is it's worth more than platinum atm, you can't explain that.

Oh, this one's easy, you see, I've been watching Ancient Aliens marathons on History channel and we are programmed to desire gold because our alien masters genetically modified us to- hey, why are you guys putting this jacket on me? And where are you dragging me to? WHERE ARE YOU DRAGGING ME TOOOOOO~

Look, Hubbard was a hack and Battlefield Earth was an atrocity that should be judged at the Hague, end of story.

[CaptainPatch]

No one really knows why gold became valuable, but it always has. We can speculate, rationalize, and hypothesize all we want, but it always just has been. It's odd. What's really odd is it's worth more than platinum atm, you can't explain that.

Oh, this one's easy, you see, I've been watching Ancient Aliens marathons on History channel and we are programmed to desire gold because our alien masters genetically modified us to- hey, why are you guys putting this jacket on me? And where are you dragging me to? WHERE ARE YOU DRAGGING ME TOOOOOO~

[Have you noticed that you're getting your very own fan club? Stuff like ^^this^^ is why. Adds to my smiles tally for the day.]

But like she says, the reason is actually quite simple. IN THE BEGINNING, powerful people ( who are the ones that become wealthy people in a materialistic society) were attracted to gold and silver and gems and all manner of pretty but rare stuff that sparkles. Crowns, rings, necklaces, et al were desired by wealthy people. If wealthy people want the stuff, and it's NOT as common as mud or pebbles, then others that do NOT have that stuff want it too. Look at nearly EVERY civilization and you see that whatever rich people have, poorer people want too -- but generally can't afford to acquire themselves. Rich people cherish gold and silver, so EVERYBODY cherishes gold and silver. We have millenniums of the perception of gold and silver being inherently valuable practically pounded into our genes. The only real limitation on that desire is that if you are starving, you can't eat it, and if you are thirsty, you can't drink it. But it IS the stuff that you _can_ use to buy food and drink from others.

[Woolfe]

No one really knows why gold became valuable, but it always has. We can speculate, rationalize, and hypothesize all we want, but it always just has been. It's odd. What's really odd is it's worth more than platinum atm, you can't explain that.

Gold is precious because its pretty and somewhat rare.

Plastic beads would be precious to a sufficiently low tech population. Until you started bringing in large amounts of them.

Reality is people like pretty things. Or they like people who like pretty things. To be horribly mercenary about it, there is a reason why it is popular in western society to give diamond rings to ladies. And it has more to do with getting in pants than with the real value of diamonds.

Sure if no one had ever heard of gold before, then it might not be valuable. Other than its "prettyness" it doesn't have a lot else going for it in a low tech world. But the concept of wealth and what equates to wealth would have been passed down over the years even in a post apocalyptic world.

Perception of wealth is often as powerful as the reality of it.

[GodComplex]

I used to be a Civil War reenactor; I know first-hand how black powder WILL foul a weapon, usually within 50 rounds being fired. Load up an M-16 with black powder rounds and just see if you can make it through the entire magazine. That's what makes black powder impractical for modern automatic and semi-automatic weapons.

Probably should use something more reliable than an M16 for an example. And boy would those things require heavy maintenance. I think the regression to black powder would just make people more reliant on bolt/break/breach actions.

Yup. Manufactured by the millions when percussion caps finally came into their own during the ACW, in factories. Only took 350 years or so before the technology was able to properly use that monk's formula. In factories, which were dedicated to making that one product.

Know what would be a great part of the story? If you had to dislodge the guardians from an ammo factory. You could sneak in and gank them, go in cowboy style, or just blow it up and have a devastating effect on the recovery of civilization.

I have no doubt that in a post-Apocalyptic environment, black powder weapons could be made from scratch. Heck, there would probably be thousands already floating around already, left over from historical reenactors. But the Achille's heel would be those percussion caps.
*snip*

I wonder how hard it would be to recreate needle guns and pin fire. I think we'd regress to pipe rifles before we'd go the way of matchlock/flintlock. Did you know there is an almost perfect 12 gauge pipe? That and a hacksaw can build a zip cannon quite easily. Minimal moving parts, fouling and maintenance are well into the user friendly range. Besides, I've got a Kentucky rifle kit sitting in my shop that I manage to break out every few months before it leads me to lots of cursing and the occasional broken tool. The Sten MkIII took me an afternoon (with a dremel but I digress).

Anyway I think we've deviated away from the initial argument enough. So back to the feasibility of them as currency. It could be a fun idea to toy with, were you have varying grades of rounds, much like the surplus ammo from FO:NV. Where you can go in to smaller areas and get a better price for your brass casings or have to deal with the wear and tear of using black powder rounds. Even starting out only being able to find steel n lacquer cartridges soon going up to brass as you get closer to a manufacturing base. But I still like the Ranger script backed by a ammo dump.

[BatCountry]

Taxation and tribute mechanics are more important to the formation of a widespread fiat currency than intrinsic value.
King A sees a swan on his son's birth day. He proclaims swans are blessed creatures... His son dies of crib death. He proclaims that swans are the enemy of the gods, and demands a tribute of two swan wings from every citizen once per annum so that he may sacrifice them to ward off evil influences on his children.

His subjects, distraught as swans are dangerous and hard to catch, begin offering material rewards of actually usable things in exchange for swan wings. Foreign traders discover these idiots will pay good quality silks and tasty grains which sell well (in their own local fiat currency) for swan wings and begin bringing them by the wagonload.

Choice B: Humongous of the Wasteland in his assless chaps rolls in on improvised motorcycles with his gang and demands burnable diesel fuel as tribute. You pay him in vegetable oil every year. If you don't grow seed crop, you have to trade for the oil. It's inconvenient to carry around 50-gallon drums of vegetable oil to use for trading, so you give them vegetable oil tokens/coupons... Two generations later everybody calls them "vegetals" and still uses them even though Humongous and all his little bikers are long gone.

A fiat currency spreads influence very rapidly based on its redeemability for goods and services (in other words, the reach of those people who operate under it), its ease of transportation, its seperability (I don't know what the economic term for that is, but the ability to consider it fractionally as still of value - the reason the US used pieces of eight for decades) and its availability in the local economy (the reason that people still use the Joachimsthaler in parts of the world, and the US dollar is called "dollar").

There's little to no reason to believe that a navigable wasted southwest cut off from most other settled areas with active trade would develop per-village currencies. It's pointless. A single fiat currency (probably based on an already existing one, or based on something concrete in value like clean water or liquor) would emerge due to the high level of specialization that would emerge from a post-apocalyptic barter system (one guy may reload ammo and have a chemistry lab by some hotspring where he can refine all sorts of useful waste into more useful products, another grows 40 foot tall broccoli.)

Why is this even a debate?

[CaptainPatch]

There's little to no reason to believe that a navigable wasted southwest cut off from most other settled areas with active trade would develop per-village currencies. It's pointless. A single fiat currency (probably based on an already existing one, or based on something concrete in value like clean water or liquor) would emerge due to the high level of specialization that would emerge from a post-apocalyptic barter system (one guy may reload ammo and have a chemistry lab by some hotspring where he can refine all sorts of useful waste into more useful products, another grows 40 foot tall broccoli.)

To assume a single currency is to assume a substantial degree of cooperative coordination. That is, ALL of the communities would have to agree that that ONE currency would be honored by all, with a universal valuation. Such as, a loaf of bread costs the same in each community given that bread is NOT a scarce commodity in any of them. That amount of cooperation implies that the communities are already unified to a large degree. At the least, equivalent to the city-states of Ancient Greece. This idea runs contrary to the original WL premise that Ranger Center is well organized, but the surrounding communities are NOT. It is implied that -- for the Good of all -- Ranger Center is "forging an empire" of Law & Order, not necessarily with Ranger Center in overall control, but definitely as those being responsible for maintaining the peace. At the beginning of WL, Ranger Center is controlling NO surrounding communities to any degree.

[krellen]

Actually, Captain Patch, all it assumes is that there is one single trading partner that is important enough to all the surrounding communities that its currency would be accepted by all those surrounding, because they accept it - the Water Merchants/Hub in Fallout, for instance. It doesn't matter whether Junktown, the Boneyard, Adytum, or the Brotherhood really consider bottlecaps a worthwhile currency; because the Hub considers it such, and all of those communities must trade with the Hub, it has become the de facto currency of the region.

So all it takes for RangerBucks to become the currency of the land is for trading with the Rangers to be important enough to the surrounding communities - like if they're the only ones that supply new ammunition.

[Woolfe]

Indeed.

I really would like to see the idea of "RangerBucks" as a currency, and you trying to get different groups to "sign on" to using it.

I think it could be a interesting dynamic to play with as you try and convince others to use your "bucks".

[krellen]

(Incidentally, it doesn't have to be that community's currency; the reason the US dollar became the de facto world currency isn't because the US was an important trading partner to everyone, but because OPEC decided at one point to only accept purchases in US dollars. They've been waffling on that lately and I don't know if it's still the case, but it is the historical basis of the dollar's recent primacy.)

[CaptainPatch]

Actually, Captain Patch, all it assumes is that there is one single trading partner that is important enough to all the surrounding communities that its currency would be accepted by all those surrounding, because they accept it - the Water Merchants/Hub in Fallout, for instance. It doesn't matter whether Junktown, the Boneyard, Adytum, or the Brotherhood really consider bottlecaps a worthwhile currency; because the Hub considers it such, and all of those communities must trade with the Hub, it has become the de facto currency of the region.

There is a fly in that ointment. I grant you that having a central hub whose currency is accepted by all. The problem is that the ONLY way that currency enters the surrounding communities is when the central hub makes _purchases_ (and ONLY purchases) from the surrounding communities. That limits how much currency that becomes available to each of those peripheral Economies. Unless the central hub is making HUMONGOUS purchases from _each_ surrounding community, there will NOT be enough of the central hub's currency to facilitate any of those peripheral communities. Furthermore, any purchase from the central hub would continuously reduce a peripheral community's stock of the central currency. (I assume that Ranger Center will be buying some things from its neighbors. The central hub can NOT simply dump a load of currency into each surrounding community and not get value in return. Nor can it make purchases using ten times the script for any single purchase, just to beef up the amount of available currency. Either approach makes a loaf of bread cost a bushel basket of scrip and defeats the purpose of fiat currency.

Initially one MUST assume that each peripheral community had its own commerce mechanism, either barter or local currency. Each community "is its own master". Adopting somebody else's currency cedes a noticeable degree of independence and accept the currency to have a certain amount of subservience to that currency issuer. Just how jealously do those communities value their independence.

Other than the fact that Ranger Center is "out there somewhere", at the beginning of WL Ranger Center is NOT perceived as a Major Power in the Wasteland. That would require things like "embassies" in each community. At the moment, small parties of Desert Rangers "pass through town" occasionally. They are NOT considered as "powerful" by anyone. Why would an independent community yield _any_ degree of their independence by adopting someone else's currency to be their own primary currency? Especially if the local perceptions, Ranger Center is just as vulnerable to catastrophe as any other permanent community?

All things considered, the greatest probability is that each community would have its own Economy, using either barter or local currency for Commerce. More they likely, all of them would accept Ranger scrip as legal tender, but there certainly would not be enough of it in circulation in their own Economy to make it THE dominant currency. Until such time as a community has been absorbed into the Desert Ranger "empire" that is.

(Incidentally, it doesn't have to be that community's currency; the reason the US dollar became the de facto world currency isn't because the US was an important trading partner to everyone, but because OPEC decided at one point to only accept purchases in US dollars. They've been waffling on that lately and I don't know if it's still the case, but it is the historical basis of the dollar's recent primacy.)

Purchases and sales do NOT require that they be made in US Dollars. Rather, the "measuring stick" for determining the value of purchases and sales is in -- for the moment -- USD. What has been a VERY serious discussion in OPEC for awhile now is to use the Euro as that "measuring stick".

[krellen]

Purchases and sales do NOT require that they be made in US Dollars. Rather, the "measuring stick" for determining the value of purchases and sales is in -- for the moment -- USD.

That's the same thing, it just has the money changing built in.

[GodComplex]

Indeed.

I really would like to see the idea of "RangerBucks" as a currency, and you trying to get different groups to "sign on" to using it.

I think it could be a interesting dynamic to play with as you try and convince others to use your "bucks".

I thought that would be a great idea, but the premise is you're being dropped off in a new territory where the Rangers have no or limited influence. At this point I think the Guardians would have a better control of the region and would have established currency.

I was thinking about the tribute idea, and it's usage in a Batman comic. The story where Gotham had be isolated and surrounded with mines. The idea was that people formed into gangs and had to gather supplies for their leader who would then distribute the goods. and provide protection. Some sort of feudal gang structure developed where your value was based on the skill set you provided. Something about a seamstress being more valuable than a sociologist, who'd a thunk it?

[Emmy Lou]

I'm lovin' reading the socio-economic back and forth in this thread since money isn't something I understand very well on the macro scale (I just know about the money I'm in charge of and that I shouldn't spend it all... I guess???).

But that point about Gotham City gangs got me thinking about something I can actually understand: supply and demand. I would love to see player action somehow affect the economy in interesting ways.

Like, maybe your Rangers enter a town and get some pretty standard Post-Apoc quest like "Help us deal with nearby Raiders". Quest seems pretty cut-and-dry, right? Well, what if the Rangers say "Naw, we got better things to do" and bugger off on some other quests for a while. When they make it back to the town to restock on ammo a few days later, they are unpleasantly surprised to find that the local merchant has either sold out or jacked up the price of ammo to outsiders. Everyone in town is on edge and stocking up. However, had the Rangers spent their own precious time and ammo before leaving last to actually help the town, maybe the next time they arrived things had been quiet for a while and the merchant's ammo supply was plentiful and maybe slightly cheaper for being such stand-up guys and gals (...slightly cheaper. Merchant's gotta make a living, ya know!)

And if there is a regional currency, it could be cool if there happens to be a particular faroff settlement that takes an attitude like the aforementioned Gotham Gangs. You come ridin' in on your high hog, pockets stuffed with Rangerbucks or whatever and the local tradesman is like "Your money's no good here. You want something, you trade us something we can actually use, or prove to us you're worth a damn! Pssh. City folk..."

[GodComplex]

I'm lovin' reading the socio-economic back and forth in this thread since money isn't something I understand very well on the macro scale (I just know about the money I'm in charge of and that I shouldn't spend it all... I guess???).

Macro economics deals with things like; trade deficits, borrowing, and debt. We are mostly looking to avoid that here. because macro econ is voodoo and can only be explained by magic. So as long as you understand supply/demand and elasticity you're probably pretty good.