Mood: Fallout vs Wasteland

[homeslice82]

Wasteland had plenty of goofy nonsense, like pulling fruit, visa cards, and electronic devices out of broken toasters.

But it also had more than its fair share of very serious stuff; it was just less memorable. But remember, there was the unexplained murders in Needles, the mayor's wife wired with a bomb in Quartz, a teenager kidnapped by the Guardians, a brutal turf war in Vegas, human experimentation in Darwin. And the whole robot army wanting to eradicate all life in the world.

Wasteland did a good job of juggling both aspects and making both of them work and feel at home with each other.

I don't believe that the serious parts were less memorable at all. In fact, I fully endorse a balance between goofiness and seriousness. I just think that the former is being given the shaft.

You have 49 hours to remove the pledge if you feel so disappointed and carry on.
So long!

Beat it, troll. Trying to discuss something here.

[Woolfe]

I never thought I will see the day when somebody complains because of a game that would be also a true successor to Fallout.
Personally, I don't want armored rabbits in this game but I don't care too much is a poll says otherwise.
At least be thankfull that you have a sequel made by Brian Fargo and others in the original team, something that Fallout fans will never have the pleasure.
You have 49 hours to remove the pledge if you feel so disappointed and carry on.
So long!

Really, I want the Armoured Rabbits... I don't see why they can't be serious. Could you imagine how many people might die simply because they can't get foo dbecause the armoured rabbits keep eating it. A humorous situation can still be deadly serious. And a deadly serious situation can still have humour.

It is the art of getting the mix right that we are all hoping Brian and his team can bring out.

Also if you haven't read the forum rules, then do so, as calling people trolls is not allowed. If you feel that way then take it up with the mods. Just a friendly note, as I made that mistake already.

[Virus_ST]

Including occasional "twisted humor" in a serious setting just makes this a repeat of Fallout--which might sound great to the people who signed up hoping that this would be Fallout 4.

Fallout 3. How can there be a Fallout 4 without Fallout 3? lol, you funny dude.

[Brother None]

Unless it has a healthy dose of crazy, it is not Wasteland.

I agree, mostly. But I'm mostly here for the turnbased, choice and consequence goodness, less so for the setting.

But it's not Wasteland if it's not crazy and zany. It does look like inXile wants to make it more serious, and more narrative-driven. The two probably impact each other, and it's a path they want to take. Fallout is an influence here, yes, though I think it's rather an exaggeration to then accuse them of a bait-and-switch. They're not turning the setting or the game into Fallout, but Fallout (and other TB RPGs and post-apocalyptic media that have come in between) are going to influence Wasteland 2.

But keeping the zaniness intact should be a priority, in my opinion.

Beat it, troll.

Don't call other people trolls. Also, merged. This is like one of the oldest topics of discussion on this forum

[ravenshrike]

I don't know that you can say W2 will be more serious with much less of a focus on the zany at this point. Most of the zany bits of Wasteland are the types of things that would get spitballed in the middle of pre-production and programming apart from the vaguest notions of there being zany bits.

[paultakeda]

It does look like inXile wants to make it more serious, and more narrative-driven. The two probably impact each other, and it's a path they want to take. Fallout is an influence here, yes, though I think it's rather an exaggeration to then accuse them of a bait-and-switch. They're not turning the setting or the game into Fallout, but Fallout (and other TB RPGs and post-apocalyptic media that have come in between) are going to influence Wasteland 2.

But keeping the zaniness intact should be a priority, in my opinion.

Things become much more zany if the setting gets darker. I do not see these as opposing influences.

Lethal Weapon 1 is actually a decent example of this (and hey, it stars the dude in Mad Max so it's thematically relevant). The first movie was quite dark, dealing with a suicidal cop. It was also pretty hilarious. There were quite a number of 80s movies that walked this line of "grimdark" and "zany" and Wasteland was written in that era as well.

What I don't want to see is nothing but brown and gray and everyone dressed in rags and starving. From that Scorpitron concept art I'm already seeing more Wasteland than Fallout. And Emmy Lou's P-shop of the ranger art made me smile.

[Emmy Lou]

Haha, hey, you were the one who put the picture in my head , I just had to let it out!

As for Homeslice's Fargquote (Just coined this, patent pending!), I'm going to throw my hat in and defend wackiness and try and allay some of your fears. He said "We are going to take the universe of Wasteland serious and not parody or joke about it." To me, this could also mean that the universe isn't going to change too drastically, it just won't get more wacky. They aren't going to "parody" it. But the original, as has been so lovingly detailed out, was parody heavy in the first place, and the FO games weren't immune from this by a long shot (Yea, FO1 was more serious, but you can't say FO2 didn't have plenty of things to go toe-to-toe with WL1 in terms of wackyfactor). Honestly, every one of these things:

Wasteland has hobo oracles, giant mutated vegatables, revolver-wielding babies, temples with WALLS MADE OF BLOOD, women who glow purple, armored rabbits, detectives named Spam Shade, goofy cannibalism, motorcycles with human heads, three-legged prostitutes, over-eager accordion players, and hundred-plus-year-old farmers

...Don't sound out of place to me in a FO game, and I'm a fairly big FO cheerleader who likes the grittiness.

Let us make a list from FO2, shall we?
Super intelligent scorpion whom is difficult to beat in chess, a haunted farm that turns out to be a big scooby doo mystery, a ghoul who is crazy because he has a tree in his head, a pseudo-scientology cult that is building a rocketship to escape earth, a genius molerat addicted to cheesypoofs, robots with human brains operating them, a gun-fixing savant who will die if you shoot him with your finger, a giant talking stone head, a drunk preacher who will give you the FO2 guidebook after you need it, a mentally impaired young cowherder who will "speak your language" if you have >3 INT, and beware the Super Mutant who offers to armwrestle!

And those are just off the top of my head! FO isn't all Brotherhood of Steel and Slavers, sometimes it's a Kungfu challenge an talking deathclaws as well!

So, while Fargo may have grown up some between WL and FO, and possibly moreso between FO and WL2, I think he's got a funny bone that he couldn't repress if he wanted to. The over-all mood and setting may be played more straightfaced, but wacky is in the details.

[paultakeda]

Haha, hey, you were the one who put the picture in my head , I just had to let it out!

It illustrates the point well: just because the picture looks all "holocausty" with browns and blacks, wind whipping about cloaks and scarves, doesn't mean that zany isn't coming if you pan left.

Fallout had a lot of wackiness, too, but the setting was overall depressing. Most people were barely living in the FO world while Wasteland would seem like paradise. Twenty foot tall broccoli stalks would be a bizarre thing in FO, not because it shouldn't be there (because it can) but because it's considered bizarre. In Wasteland, that's what broccoli looks like.

[Mandemon]

Let us make a list from FO2, shall we?
Super intelligent scorpion whom is difficult to beat in chess, a haunted farm that turns out to be a big scooby doo mystery, a ghoul who is crazy because he has a tree in his head, a pseudo-scientology cult that is building a rocketship to escape earth, a genius molerat addicted to cheesypoofs, robots with human brains operating them, a gun-fixing savant who will die if you shoot him with your finger, a giant talking stone head, a drunk preacher who will give you the FO2 guidebook after you need it, a mentally impaired young cowherder who will "speak your language" if you have >3 INT, and beware the Super Mutant who offers to armwrestle!

You can also move intelligent plant to different spot to learn a move that will beat said scorpion, group of power armor wearing Brotherhood Knights on search of holy grail, Computer that is considered Emperor by group of Chinese descendants, a tribal that speaks to "spirits" in bone that is attached to his nose(Sulik), you can dig a grave and find a ghoul in it who will walk away, at least 5 4th wall breaking moments, ton of pop-culture references, ability to become porn star...

[kira]

That ghoul in Broken Hills that gets stuck under your front bump(aka you run him over) had me laughing till I cried. I really hope to see things like that in Wasteland 2.

"Wasteland has hobo oracles, giant mutated vegatables, revolver-wielding babies, temples with WALLS MADE OF BLOOD, women who glow purple, armored rabbits, detectives named Spam Shade, goofy cannibalism, motorcycles with human heads, three-legged prostitutes, over-eager accordion players, and hundred-plus-year-old farmers"

This sounds like a perfect world to me. If you guys can fit in a grandmother in a wheel chair armed with a machine gun into the game I'll be glad.

[kenup]

Though influence will inevitably sip from fallout into wasteland 2(and the vies versa already happened), I don't think we have to worry that much about the colourfulness of the wasteland. From the latest art with the scorpion, we see an urban area with overgrown flora, which as far as I know wasn't anywhere in fallout other than [spoiler]Vault 22, which is not even urban, and the botanic garden in OWB, which is a lone destroyed building.[/spoiler]

I'm pretty sure we'll see many varied locations in game based on the lore, as well as some new ones.

That said I haven't played Wasteland...yet, so these are just my observations on currently released content.

[TΛPETRVE]

To make a simple comparison here: Fallout dresses into a 50s-retro style what is otherwise has a quite modern approach to science fiction. Wasteland, on the other hand, has much more in common with actual sci-fi tropes from the 50s and 60s, especially the more outlandish works from writers like Harlan Ellison (esp. A Boy and his Dog, which was mentioned in another thread already), and then is topped off with a dash of 80s trash culture thrown into the mix (e.g. Troma films).

[Son of Max]

This sounds like a perfect world to me. If you guys can fit in a grandmother in a wheel chair armed with a machine gun into the game I'll be glad.

Wasteland 2: Granny Topeka's Revenge!

[homeslice82]

Let us make a list from FO2, shall we?
Super intelligent scorpion whom is difficult to beat in chess, a haunted farm that turns out to be a big scooby doo mystery, a ghoul who is crazy because he has a tree in his head, a pseudo-scientology cult that is building a rocketship to escape earth, a genius molerat addicted to cheesypoofs, robots with human brains operating them, a gun-fixing savant who will die if you shoot him with your finger, a giant talking stone head, a drunk preacher who will give you the FO2 guidebook after you need it, a mentally impaired young cowherder who will "speak your language" if you have >3 INT, and beware the Super Mutant who offers to armwrestle!

And those are just off the top of my head! FO isn't all Brotherhood of Steel and Slavers, sometimes it's a Kungfu challenge an talking deathclaws as well!

So, while Fargo may have grown up some between WL and FO, and possibly moreso between FO and WL2, I think he's got a funny bone that he couldn't repress if he wanted to. The over-all mood and setting may be played more straightfaced, but wacky is in the details.

This is indeed reassuring, but there's one problem that's being overlooked. From that same interview:

PeBeFri: One new aspect I noticed in Fallout 2 that was largely absent from its predecessor was its tendency to break the fourth wall. Looking back, which level of immersion was better suited for the Fallout universe? Will this impact Wasteland 2?

CFA: I prefered Fallout 1 style humor, we went overboard on F2.

This makes me worried, once again. F2 might have been overboard for the Fallout setting, but it sounds fine for Wasteland. They're just confusing the two games again.

Don't call other people trolls. Also, merged. This is like one of the oldest topics of discussion on this forum

Sorry, hadn't read the rules. I just assumed that they were the same as the average rules on any forum. I'll avoid that in the future.

Anyway, I didn't think that this was just a Wasteland vs. Fallout discussion, but it's your call, I guess.

[Emmy Lou]

This makes me worried, once again. F2 might have been overboard for the Fallout setting, but it sounds fine for Wasteland. They're just confusing the two games again.

Hm, I must've missed that Fargquote (Or is it an Avel-line?)

One thing to remember is that (according to his birth date on Wikipedia) Fargo was about 25 when WL1 was released and he's nearing 50 now. That's half his lifetime ago and he's probably matured a bit (Though, he's still a game maker, so heavy emphasis on "a bit"). Maybe he doesn't want to make a game that feels a bit like the cast of Monty Python wandered onto the set of Mad Max. It may be a shame to those who became so enamoured with WL1's irreverent style all those years ago, but we gotta remember that Wasteland is ultimately Brian's dream and vision, and as he grows, so grows Wasteland. C'est la vie!

Personally, as a nerdy immersionist RPer, I'm all for the humour shifting from "Gonzo" to something a bit more based in realism, i.e. "Black comedy". The perfect example to me of this done well is Coen Brothers films. Many (not all) of their films are done with a straight face yet will still make you bust a gut, because the simple fact is sometimes reality is stranger than fiction. Well, maybe not stranger than Wasteland's fiction. But there is a certain quality of Black Comedy that makes it's strange humour all that more jarring because it isn't around every corner, so when you DO encounter it, you can't help but think to yourself:

"Oh my god, did... did that really just happen to me???"

[lomifeh]

i for one hope there is a good mix of humor in it, including the goofy kind. Considering the setting a little humor like that will be required imho. If it is kept in the same vein as the original then all is good. Speaking of FO, for New Vegas did anyone not turn on the Wacky Wasteland thing? I still smile at the Lassie moment.

[Emmy Lou]

Considering the setting a little humor like that will be required imho.

Quite agreed there. Someone mentioned somewhere on the forum that "people use humour to cope", and there is no reason why this wouldn't be true after the apocalypse! Just because the world blew up doesn't mean people will all be mopey and forlorn for "the way it used to be" because by the time the game takes place, there are very few people who were around then to experience it! The old world may seem miraculous, but it's as bygone an era as the victorian or romans for all intents and purposes. But the world is harsher, so the humanity's coping mechanisms should be kicking in right about now.

I'm glad Brian also mentioned there was going to be a rise in faith as well, because times of strife definitely bring a need for hope to people.

[Woolfe]

Considering the setting a little humor like that will be required imho.

Quite agreed there. Someone mentioned somewhere on the forum that "people use humour to cope", and there is no reason why this wouldn't be true after the apocalypse! Just because the world blew up doesn't mean people will all be mopey and forlorn for "the way it used to be" because by the time the game takes place, there are very few people who were around then to experience it! The old world may seem miraculous, but it's as bygone an era as the victorian or romans for all intents and purposes. But the world is harsher, so the humanity's coping mechanisms should be kicking in right about now.

I'm glad Brian also mentioned there was going to be a rise in faith as well, because times of strife definitely bring a need for hope to people.

And the reverse as well. "How could God have forsaken us so, it must be false"

Nothing like a good disaster to polarize religious belief.

[homeslice82]

And the reverse as well. "How could God have forsaken us so, it must be false"

Nothing like a good disaster to polarize religious belief.

Well, that isn't really what happened in Wasteland 1. Just in case you haven't played it, I'll clarify that people worshipped the concept of nukes and referred to Einstein as their "holy one". Glowing women called "RadAngels" hung out around the church. Wasteland wasn't interested in making a statement about human nature--it just wanted to be bizarre.

[Lucius]

Well, that isn't really what happened in Wasteland 1. Just in case you haven't played it, I'll clarify that people worshipped the concept of nukes and referred to Einstein as their "holy one". Glowing women called "RadAngels" hung out around the church. Wasteland wasn't interested in making a statement about human nature--it just wanted to be bizarre.

You know there is something about this whole thread that has had me thinking but I really haven't been able to formulate what I'm trying to say. Bizarre is a great word for Wasteland. There are so many bizarre encounters, including the ones you listed above. But as bizarre as they may seem to us, the game treated them very seriously. There was never a sense of comedy from Wasteland. There was some dark humor and zany items that even broke the 4th wall (like the crystal ball in Needles referencing Bards Tale), but there were just a few one off things stuck in there. Generally speaking, the game took itself seriously. Harry the Bunnymaster, armored bunnies, and 40ft broccoli was serious business, yet incredibly bizarre. The feeling from the characters in game of this environment was one of awe and shock, not comedy or zany.

Brian Fargo's quote didn't rule out bizarre groups, people, places. Like was said, don't expect Monty Python in WL2. I don't think that would have fit in the first one either though.