Power Armour dominating late game

[GodComplex]

Nuclear battery. It's like solar, but 24/7.

Yes and everyone knows nuclear batteries require no maintenance and can never run out of power or be damaged in any way.
Now how do I get one for my laser rifle? Limitless ammo sounds great.

Depends on if you're dealing with a pulse or beam mechanism. The idea of a nuclear battery is that you have a surface of radioactive material opposite what amounts to a solar panel. There are no moving parts, which is why it's a battery, so it has limited maintenance and is as damage resistant as it's casing, but it only provides a limited amount of restorable power at probably a low voltage.

Ideally you could use it for laser weapons, but they function mainly off bursts of high amp energy and would likely not be able to fire a strong enough blast to be useful, or would it be able to fire many times per day. Think of it like the recharger rifle from FO:NV. Low power, but unlimited ammo. Though if you included something like a deep charge capacitor you may be able to fire off a decent blast once per day.

If you'd like to know more, read up on thorium powered cars, it's quite fascinating how little material the require to function.

[JerryLove]

The Voyager probes, operating for more than 30 years since their last maintenance are running of nuclear batteries.

[Woolfe]

Whats the issue with using power cells?

Ok I got off my fat arse and had a look at the wiki to find out what they were called in the original.

Power Packs were used to power the energy weapons.

Logic would dictate, that a similar power pack could be used to power other things, for example Armour.

Now I understand that the original didn't do this. However I don't believe it is that major a change. It is certainly no worse than the concept of "solar powered" or "nuclear powered" power armour.

At least this has basis in the original.

[Drool]

The Voyager probes, operating for more than 30 years since their last maintenance are running of nuclear batteries.

Clearly NASA needs to read this forum to learn what is and isn't realistic!

[scaly_piscine]

Power armor dominating late game is lazy game design. It's just a way to tell the player that all of their individual character development choices regarding armor up to this point is irrelevant because there's only one suit of gear actually capable of allowing you to survive endgame combat. I'm not a fan of the "power armor requires energy cells" concept, as I wouldn't really like to have to constantly switch my armor in and out, but I do think that wearing power armor should cause severe limitations to evasion and movement speed at the very least. If there is a stamina stat in Wasteland 2, it should probably severely reduce the regeneration of it as well.

Fallout 1 and 2 got things completely backwards in this respect, and we saw how pointless the armor system in those games were because of it. Fallout New Vegas honestly did a hell of a lot better job with Power Armor because it wasn't always the best armor to be using with every build in every situation. With the much larger variety of possible combat focuses we'll be seeing in Wasteland 2 I hope we have an equal variety of high end armor types to go with it.

Fallout 1 and 2 had a very good armour system - far better than most of the modern watered down stuff I see where all you get is one general value. the problem was there was no real choice to which armour you wore. About the only time there would be some sort of choice was if you had the option of say tesla/metal armour or combat armour. But since laser weapons were fairly unusual and generally useless that wasn't much of a choice either.

Wasteland has the opportunity to evolve the choices by having more complex combat, where there is head-on combat where your tank armour is probably best, but also having other aspects like needing to move quickly, going undetected, having more flexibility to use weapons or equipment, travelling speed etc.

[Vryheid]

Fallout 1 and 2 had a very good armour system - far better than most of the modern watered down stuff I see where all you get is one general value.

Well yeah, as I've pointed out in other threads, conceptually Fallout's armor system was very well thought out. The DT/DR/AC fusion was far more complex than anything I had seen in RPGs up until that point, and I was honestly rather disappointed that Fallout 3 decided to do away with that complexity and go with a straight damage reduction system. As you point out though, all of this complexity didn't amount to much when these stats all increased simultaneously in a linear progression scheme.

the problem was there was no real choice to which armour you wore. About the only time there would be some sort of choice was if you had the option of say tesla/metal armour or combat armour. But since laser weapons were fairly unusual and generally useless that wasn't much of a choice either.

Exactly. Armor in the original Fallouts pretty much stuck to the following basic scheme: power armor > combat armor > metal armor > leather armor > clothes. Fallout 2 tried to complicate it a bit by adding a bunch of random "Mk 2" upgrades to specific armors, but all this did was extend the line of progression rather than giving the players any elements of choice.

Wasteland has the opportunity to evolve the choices by having more complex combat, where there is head-on combat where your tank armour is probably best, but also having other aspects like needing to move quickly, going undetected, having more flexibility to use weapons or equipment, travelling speed etc.

Once again, this was pretty much what I was trying to say here. Realistically, simply covering yourself with these thick metal suits isn't going to help much against weapons who's primary means of damage is the sheer force of impact. It doesn't matter how "strong" your armor is if you're getting plowed into the ground by a projectile with the force of an artillery shell. On the other hand, Power Armor is probably really good against fast, penetrating weapons that focus on an overwhelming volume of projectiles. That's why I liked what Fallout New Vegas did with Power Armor- it was great against things like gatling lasers and submachine guns, but not very useful against an anti-tank rifle or Legendary Deathclaw. In fact, in those situations you'd be better off wearing something lighter, because the extra speed and reduced profile means that you'd have a much easier time evading those attacks.

Not to mention the ability to fool people into trusting you by wearing factional armor was pretty amazing, and was definitely an incentive to not just carry the same suit of armor around 24/7. I REALLY hope that gets carried over into this game.

[JerryLove]

Once again, this was pretty much what I was trying to say here. Realistically, simply covering yourself with these thick metal suits isn't going to help much against weapons who's primary means of damage is the sheer force of impact.

They distribute load for one thing. This not only allows you to absorb more impact, but it allows an impact to push you rather than break you (think seat-belt). There's also kinetic absorption material (stuffing or foam) which lengthens the time of impact (think crumple-zone). Come to think of it: a car is a thick metal suit with wheels.

Like a car: there are, of course, limits... but then nothing will help you

It would have been a weakness exploited in knights by the mace had this not been the case. In reality: things that could kill a night in armor included the footman's hammer and the crossbow.

[nathanknaack]

I'll be happy so long as Wasteland 2 doesn't follow the "standard" trend of the entire Fallout series: Dude starts off with a pistol and some leather hides, but invariably ends the game with a full suit of power armor and some kind of laser/plasma weapon.

Probably my favorite mechanical part of Fallout 2 was that I could play the entire game relying on my trusty .44 Magnum. What's cooler than having skills bad-ass enough to kill an Enclave soldier in full power armor with one shot from a pistol?

So yeah, don't get rid of the power armor or energy weapons, just make sure you balance them properly. A laser rifle should do a ton more damage than a hunting rifle, but ammo rarity and price should scale appropriately. Likewise, power armor should have penalties that balance out its benefits.

[krellen]

I'll be happy so long as Wasteland 2 doesn't follow the "standard" trend of the entire Fallout series: Dude starts off with a pistol and some leather hides, but invariably ends the game with a full suit of power armor and some kind of laser/plasma weapon.

Sorry, that trend was started by Wasteland.

[Xon]

Personally I'm all for power armor which actually lives up to the fluff which is used to describe it. If I'm promised armor which can wade through small arms fire without a care, I damn well want to be able todo that. Also, if the batteries for the armor are described as being explosive when damaged I also want the ability to use that as an improvised explosive.

If what is suposed to be a game changer item in the setting is just vender trash to the player, I think the game designers have failed somewhere.

Yes and everyone knows nuclear batteries require no maintenance and can never run out of power or be damaged in any way.

Most designs for nuclear batteries are of two general types; Thermal & non-thermal. The thermal ones require a temperature differential, and are literially just a lump of radioactive material providing heat which is converted to electricity.

The biggest problem with thermal nuclear batteries is you have a radioactive lump of matter slowly turning itself into something slightly less radioactive and making the casing around it radioactive via nuclear transmutation. Non-thermal also has the same problem of rendering themselves radioactive, but are technologically more complicated as well.

But anything with serious energy density has the problem of what happens when you breach it.

Nuclear battery. It's like solar, but 24/7.

Ironically there are some theoretical designs for non-thermal nuclear batteries which amount to using a photovoltaic cell wrapped around a radioactive source with a mediam which converts beta radiation into light.

[nathanknaack]

I'll be happy so long as Wasteland 2 doesn't follow the "standard" trend of the entire Fallout series: Dude starts off with a pistol and some leather hides, but invariably ends the game with a full suit of power armor and some kind of laser/plasma weapon.

Sorry, that trend was started by Wasteland.

Yeah, you're right, but maybe it's time to move on to include alternate skill/gear advancement opportunities.

I'd love to raise one of my characters up to be Mr. Social guy, someone with all the skills to do the talking for my gang, but also some combat-related stuff with group buffs and enemy intimidation.

How about putting in a viable stealth/backstab skill set that's useful for the entire game? I always thought it was strange that my "sneaky" guy in Wasteland was waltzing around with the same ion beamer and power armor that the rest of the team was using.

In my opinion, one of the only bad parts of Wasteland was that it was nearly impossible to complete the game unless every single member of your party was in power armor or pseudo-chitin and had ion beamers, meson cannons, proton axes, etc.

[GodComplex]

Once again, this was pretty much what I was trying to say here. Realistically, simply covering yourself with these thick metal suits isn't going to help much against weapons who's primary means of damage is the sheer force of impact. It doesn't matter how "strong" your armor is if you're getting plowed into the ground by a projectile with the force of an artillery shell. On the other hand, Power Armor is probably really good against fast, penetrating weapons that focus on an overwhelming volume of projectiles. That's why I liked what Fallout New Vegas did with Power Armor- it was great against things like gatling lasers and submachine guns, but not very useful against an anti-tank rifle or Legendary Deathclaw. In fact, in those situations you'd be better off wearing something lighter, because the extra speed and reduced profile means that you'd have a much easier time evading those attacks.

What wasteland needs is an Ursus Suit.

Ironically there are some theoretical designs for non-thermal nuclear batteries which amount to using a photovoltaic cell wrapped around a radioactive source with a mediam which converts beta radiation into light.

Got a link? I'm intrigued by this.

[Kaolix]

Ironically there are some theoretical designs for non-thermal nuclear batteries which amount to using a photovoltaic cell wrapped around a radioactive source with a mediam which converts beta radiation into light.

Got a link? I'm intrigued by this.

I apologise profusely if I'm underestimating your physics knowledge here, and what you're actually asking for is information on actual designs of batteries like this, but the concept itself is fairly simple - hell, I have right now, attached to my keyring, effectively half of such a device.

All you really need is to take some transparent material, the stronger and more transparent the better (graphene would come to mind here . . . ) and then coat the inside with a scintillator, then fill it with as much tritium (radioactive isotope of hydrogen) as you can without it rupturing. You then surround this with a photovoltaic cell, presumably tailored to the product of your scintillator's emission spectrum with your case-material's absorption spectrum (i.e. if your case absorbs a load of ultraviolet light, you want to use a PVD that will absorb more lower-energy light to maximise efficiency). Once you have this, bam, constant power for a long while. Tritium has a half life of ~10 years, so you may want to use something that'll last longer, but it illustrates the principle.

As I mentioned earlier, I have half of such a device in my pocket - a little resin case containing tritium and scintillation material. Helps find keys in the dark!

Just to not be completely off topic, it seems there's two camps in this thread; those who like an armour progression leading to Power Armour being practically required in the end-game, and those who want your choice of armour to be an important factor tactically.
I don't see any reason why you can't have both - as people have mentioned, have a range of armours at each 'stage' of the game. At the start, maybe you're choosing between solid metal plates bolted together to clank around and soak up bullets, or hardened leather/suppler materials for stealth/ambush based tactics. Later on you'd be choosing between military-grade combat armour and perhaps some kind of kevlar-or-similar based infiltration gear. High end, there's no reason you can't have multiple grades of power armour, from the walking tank who becomes a bullet/plasma magnet, to the nimbler, thinner-but-still-heavy power armour with padded joins for noise suppression, and perhaps some kind of optics-based camouflage?
Essentially, multiple different 'trees' of armour progression depending on character archetype.

[Azriel]

I skipped ahead, I have am not familiar with W1 power armour so I am just putting my opinions. I personally don't think power armour should require refilling. I think it should need a one time power source (which could be quest itself), but not any more. It would be annoying having it run out of gass, then take it off and carry it around in your backpack. I think it would cross the fun vs realistic factor.

[GodComplex]

All you really need is to take some transparent material, the stronger and more transparent the better (graphene would come to mind here . . . ) and then coat the inside with a scintillator, then fill it with as much tritium (radioactive isotope of hydrogen) as you can without it rupturing. You then surround this with a photovoltaic cell, presumably tailored to the product of your scintillator's emission spectrum with your case-material's absorption spectrum (i.e. if your case absorbs a load of ultraviolet light, you want to use a PVD that will absorb more lower-energy light to maximise efficiency). Once you have this, bam, constant power for a long while. Tritium has a half life of ~10 years, so you may want to use something that'll last longer, but it illustrates the principle.

I figured that's what was involved. I was curious if it differed from my understanding that involved a surface of isotope adjacent a surface of photovoltaic cells. From the description it seemed as if there was something else involved to changed the wave of the radiation into something more palatable for the cell, which is where my confusion set in.

Just to not be completely off topic, it seems there's two camps in this thread; those who like an armour progression leading to Power Armour being practically required in the end-game, and those who want your choice of armour to be an important factor tactically.
I don't see any reason why you can't have both - as people have mentioned, have a range of armours at each 'stage' of the game. At the start, maybe you're choosing between solid metal plates bolted together to clank around and soak up bullets, or hardened leather/suppler materials for stealth/ambush based tactics. Later on you'd be choosing between military-grade combat armour and perhaps some kind of kevlar-or-similar based infiltration gear. High end, there's no reason you can't have multiple grades of power armour, from the walking tank who becomes a bullet/plasma magnet, to the nimbler, thinner-but-still-heavy power armour with padded joins for noise suppression, and perhaps some kind of optics-based camouflage?
Essentially, multiple different 'trees' of armour progression depending on character archetype.

I like everything that is said here. I think we can all agree that we need a variety of armor. I'd love to see something like silenced plate n chainmaille for a sneak attack with a proton executioner's ax.

[Woolfe]

Just to not be completely off topic, it seems there's two camps in this thread; those who like an armour progression leading to Power Armour being practically required in the end-game, and those who want your choice of armour to be an important factor tactically.
I don't see any reason why you can't have both - as people have mentioned, have a range of armours at each 'stage' of the game. At the start, maybe you're choosing between solid metal plates bolted together to clank around and soak up bullets, or hardened leather/suppler materials for stealth/ambush based tactics. Later on you'd be choosing between military-grade combat armour and perhaps some kind of kevlar-or-similar based infiltration gear. High end, there's no reason you can't have multiple grades of power armour, from the walking tank who becomes a bullet/plasma magnet, to the nimbler, thinner-but-still-heavy power armour with padded joins for noise suppression, and perhaps some kind of optics-based camouflage?
Essentially, multiple different 'trees' of armour progression depending on character archetype.

Yep I agree, except that there should be no character "archetype" So long as they have the ability to use it, there is no reason why your stealthy guy can't put on a suit of the most powerful power armour and tank for a while.
Unless you start introducing skills around armour usage. Not an impossibility.

[CaptainPatch]

Saw a couple summations on this page, and I get the impression this idea hasn't come up. (And I'd be surprised if it did.)

Up front admission: TL;DR. But here's my thought: What about NO Power Armor? If the nukes dropped @1995. We know pretty well where tech was in regards to armor in Real Life in 1995. Even assuming serious scientific advances driven by a Cold War that stretched from 1945 to nuke fall 50 years later, I can't see a power source capable of driving the armor exoskeleton for days on end. And even if they did, I can't see it being miniaturized enough to not itself being more of a burden than the system it is powering being overwhelmed.

I can see the development of static shell armor like Storm Trooper armor from "Star Wars". Lightweight composites. Improved articulation. Integrated Communications suite with HUD. Computational targeting aids. Even minor Electronic Warfare systems integrated. All those electronics could be powered by a relatively small, efficient battery with a 12-24 hours power cycle. (Recharger comes included with several batteries.) But what I can't see is a power system capable of driving the equivalent of a walking tank.

[Drool]

There's two reasons for power armor.

1) It was in the original. Sure, that's not a perfect excuse for everything, but it is a consideration.
2) While the bombs fell in 1998, it's a very different 1998 than in the real world. The USSR didn't dissolve in 1991; the cold war, and thus extreme MAD-driven development continued. We also didn't have an orbital missile platform in 1998, but the Citadel Superstation was the catalyst for the nuclear exchange. The Wasteland world probably didn't even have glasnost.

[Ronrocken]

It would be interesting if armours had very significant advantages and disadvantages. Some armours would require certain kind of body build, better/worse against lasers/bullets, agility boost/penalty.... etc.

[Ronrocken]

Fallout 1 and 2 got things completely backwards in this respect, and we saw how pointless the armor system in those games were because of it. Fallout New Vegas honestly did a hell of a lot better job with Power Armor because it wasn't always the best armor to be using with every build in every situation. With the much larger variety of possible combat focuses we'll be seeing in Wasteland 2 I hope we have an equal variety of high end armor types to go with it.

I couldn't stand the armor system in FO3 or New Vegas ~(IMO it was crap; and it let a person in power armor get killed by a BB gun).

It IS the case that if you are wearing military powered infantry armor, you should be immune to small arms fire; that if you encounter three guys in the wasteland with knives and a 10mm pistol ~you should not only be able to slaughter them with no risk, but should be able to sit down and read a book while they waste their ammo and hit you with
rocks or baseball bats ~to no effect. ** Actually I would prefer it if the game had an intelligence check for them to run, or just give up; or even try bartering instead of attacking someone in power armor.

About the intelligence check.... definitely! http://static.zenimax.com/bethblog/oldc ... ington.jpg