Slavery

[Woolfe]

But you know what, even if all the slaves die. The guys who was providing the market for the slavers is dead, and everyone else has heard about a group of rangers who comes in and fucks shit up if they have slaves, so they stop buying slaves,therefore the market is dead, therefore the slavers are no longer profiting from their activities, therefore they stop turning people into slaves.

Is that "You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs" or "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the (relatively) few"? Not very comforting to the "eggs" or relative few. One wonders how the slaves would react if someone sat them down and explained that, "Following the Ranger's lead WILL more than likely result in most of you dying before the dust settles. But, hey! At least you all died as Free Men! In the long run, your deaths will have been for the best for everybody else."

Hmm. I and my family can be _live_ slaves, or _dead_ Free Men. Which should I choose? Decisions, decisions.

Its your choice now. Cause I made a choice to end the Slavers. Sorry but now you have a choice to make something of your freedom, or give up and die. I'll help you where I can, not because I am guilty over killing the slavers, but because I will help people when I can. I would help even if you hadn't been enslaved.

Perhaps I can lead you back to the new Ranger centre. We could use you there, you'll learn skills and earn enough to live on. You are obviously used to hard work, a free man with a strong work ethic can go far in an organisation like the rangers. More importantly we won't hold you there, you can leave if you want.

Or I can take you somewhere else, I'll give you some money to start off with.

Or you could stay here and defend this place, there is space here to grow food, and there are enough of you that someone must know how to fix things up, I'll even contact the ranger centre and get a trainer sent out to show you how to use those left over guns and set up some trade contacts.

Your whole life is ahead of you, and now you have a choice in what to do with it.

I love moral arguments. Everyone assumes there is no choice, there is always choice. It just may lead to stuff breaking.

[CaptainPatch]

Its your choice now. Cause I made a choice to end the Slavers. Sorry but now you have a choice to make something of your freedom, or give up and die. I'll help you where I can, not because I am guilty over killing the slavers, but because I will help people when I can. I would help even if you hadn't been enslaved.

No, it was a unilateral choice that YOU made, without any input from me or anyone I know having asked you to make. Before, as a slave I had security, food, shelter, clothing. It may have been my Master's home, but it was my home too! So what if I wasn't being paid? Had I been paid, what would I have done with that money? Bought food? Rent a domicile? Buy clothes? And after all that, I'd _still_ have to go to work to make more money to keep on paying the bills. Paying bills was something I never had to think about! EVERYTHING I needed was given to me -- and in return I gave my labor. But when YOU killed all of the Slavers, you just wiped out the local Economy -- and everyone that knew how to run a business as well! Now all we have is all of the former Slaves fighting over possessions that pointedly no longer have legal owners. (You killed all of the owners.) From a system of order and structure, all we have now is "Might makes right". Over-muscled bullies WILL prey on the weak. And we that are weak, what kind of Life can we expect now that you have so graciously "given" us our freedom? Are YOU going to stick around to make sure that the bullies don't take over and show what misery really looks like? Noooo. Now you have to run off and go murder some other Slavers and make Life miserable for a bunch of other slaves. Somewhere.

Thank you oh so very much! We most definitely owe the change in the quality of our lives to YOU! [/sarcasm]

[Woolfe]

Its your choice now. Cause I made a choice to end the Slavers. Sorry but now you have a choice to make something of your freedom, or give up and die. I'll help you where I can, not because I am guilty over killing the slavers, but because I will help people when I can. I would help even if you hadn't been enslaved.

No, it was a unilateral choice that YOU made, without any input from me or anyone I know having asked you to make. Before, as a slave I had security, food, shelter, clothing. It may have been my Master's home, but it was my home too! So what if I wasn't being paid? Had I been paid, what would I have done with that money? Bought food? Rent a domicile? Buy clothes? And after all that, I'd _still_ have to go to work to make more money to keep on paying the bills. Paying bills was something I never had to think about! EVERYTHING I needed was given to me -- and in return I gave my labor. But when YOU killed all of the Slavers, you just wiped out the local Economy -- and everyone that knew how to run a business as well! Now all we have is all of the former Slaves fighting over possessions that pointedly no longer have legal owners. (You killed all of the owners.) From a system of order and structure, all we have now is "Might makes right". Over-muscled bullies WILL prey on the weak. And we that are weak, what kind of Life can we expect now that you have so graciously "given" us our freedom? Are YOU going to stick around to make sure that the bullies don't take over and show what misery really looks like? Noooo. Now you have to run off and go murder some other Slavers and make Life miserable for a bunch of other slaves. Somewhere.

Thank you oh so very much! We most definitely owe the change in the quality of our lives to YOU! [/sarcasm]

Shrug... pretty much. Life's not fair. I offered you assistance, you take it or you don't. Your choice. My choice was whether to kill the slavers or not, and in this case they weren't providing everyone enough to live on, they weren't providing everyone medicine, you may not have lived in filth, but others did, and they took their children and abused them as they chose. If it was otherwise I would have have dealt with them in another manner. I note that you lived in good conditions, had plenty of food and your family was not abused, what did you do to deserve that, was it just hard work, or did you offer others up to placate your masters. I make no qualms about destroying the life you lived. Its now up to you to see what you can do with it. I've offered assistance, and those other slaves who were being beaten into the ground are happy to take it. Perhaps I should ask them what you did to earn such a position of power around here. I wonder whether the answer would be positive? Did you ever use your privilige to improve the lot of the others? Did you ever stand up when the master raped a child? Your system of order was built on the backs of the suffering of others. A structure like that will collapse sooner or later, just happened to be sooner this time.

Time to make a choice, Join us, join the slaves who are staying, leave, or stand here whinging. Either way I am done, your life is in your own hands now.

(Phew, assumptions being made everywhere )

[CaptainPatch]

I offered you assistance, you take it or you don't. Your choice.

Ah, but you see, you did NOT offer us any choice on the matter. You jumped to the conclusion that "They're _all_ in need of killing!" No thorough research to determine which Slave-owners were abusive and which were decent and humane, treating their slaves like extended family. Just like you assume that any slave not being abused MUST be in league with Slavers.

If you see yourself as the Avenger Upon Those That Inflict Misery On Others, then the next time you pull your gun, shoot yourself in the head. To NOT do so is pointedly hypocritical.

[Who says there isn't enough roleplaying in Wasteland?

[Irx]

I'm reminded of Fallout 3's salvery. I was really into that at first, it seemed really interesting. But it just fell flat. The slavers need to be a bit more "deep" than "evil bad men profiting by kidnapping people and selling them into slavery" and if you're allowed to help slavers, there should be some obvious reason for doing so. A good example is selling your captured enemies into slavery? You make money, you punish your enemies, but maybe this decision isn't all that moral. Maybe it has unintended consequences.

Well, I don't think there is much complexity about slavery - its all about profit and morals.
But Fallout 3 kind of failed at both - it didn't have any interesting social interactions/situations/quests about slavery to give it context and right atmosphere, and gameplay-wise, it was just a gimmick with annoying mechanics with too little gain to bother.

Fallout 2 did it much better, the choice to become a slaver was interesting - you did gain a considerable amount of easy money at the beginning of the game, but it had consequences later on. Also character and situations were more interesting - like Vault city etc.

[Woolfe]

No thorough research to determine which Slave-owners were abusive and which were decent and humane, treating their slaves like extended family.

Now who is jumping to conclusions, I offered the slavers the choice. End the behaviour, Some even wavered, but they could not give up their luxury.
(Samuel L Jackson voice on)
Then when I went to the worst and freed his slaves from tyranny he did call upon his neighbours to smite me. And nay did they waiver then, instead they came upon me with fire and blade. But the path of the righteous is mighty, and even after I attempted parley those "decent and humane" owners still sent their lackeys and minions, then threw themselves into the fray even as the fear smote their hearts. And thus was their apathy to the tyranny of their brothers finally stripped from them and they were brought low by it.
(Samuel L Jackson voice off)

[Who says there isn't enough roleplaying in Wasteland?

Indeed, I am almost afraid that I am going to be dissapointed by the game if I don't get some serious moral slavery choices

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

As odd as it sounds many people actually enjoy having a very clear and unambigious purpose, and being lead, with few responsibilities themselves.

It doesn't sound odd at all. IMO it accurately describes most of the citizenry of so-called "civilized" societies today, which allows them to be bullied by corrupt crony politicians, defrauded by ponzi-scheming criminal bankers, and generally taken advantage of by the mafias that are running modern Western civilization.

Now if only those things were a dynamic of the Civ games. In those games there is a clear progression from primitive slaving societies to advanced free societies. But although I like his games, I think Sid Meier is living in some idealized 1950's western civilization if he doesn't think political corruption is a heavy influence on modern society or that it is partially enabled by a docile (slavish) public.

Though now that I think of it I am remembered "Fallout Tactics" with the whole mission where you clear out a bunker and "recruit" some tribals and the ending voicework for the mission had General Barnaky going off like "you have now recruited these tribals to be pressed into service where they will learn to follow our strict and uncompromising rules and thus be free" which was in the same basic spirit.

The Rangers thus become a kind of slavers themselves.

But you know what, even if all the slaves die. The guys who was providing the market for the slavers is dead, and everyone else has heard about a group of rangers who comes in and fucks shit up if they have slaves, so they stop buying slaves,therefore the market is dead, therefore the slavers are no longer profiting from their activities, therefore they stop turning people into slaves.

Is that "You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs" or "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the (relatively) few"? Not very comforting to the "eggs" or relative few.

It's actually the needs of the few (the slaver-killer) outweigh the needs of the many (the slavers+the slaves+society). It's a pretty selfish character who goes around doing "good" to satisfy his personal morals, without considering the social consequences. Even though the motives might be pure, it's still a selfish act, because that is doing it the easy way. You can try it, but IMO it would have messy consequences for everyone.

If you are a powerful superhero why don't you go all over the world and liberate every single slave from every single owner? You could do it that way and you would probably end up killing more people than you free. It's not like "Animal Farm" where the slaves/farm animals will take over the work for their own good if the owner is taken away. Most of them will not know how to run anything.

The "owners" make you dependent on them, so you like being a slave more often than you don't. We're lucky some of the things once done by slaves can today be done by machines; but that only masks part of the problem. Slavery takes on a new form, the form of the Nineteen Eighty-Four/Brave World dystopian society where everyone is a slave. Nothing can solve that kind of slavery except a full blown civil war.

It took a civil war to end legal slavery in the US; it split society in two, with brothers fighting brothers; and yet that did not end the worst part of it, the racial apartheid. It's taken this long (until today) since the civil war for the US to come so far, yet racial violence and racial politics still dominates our culture. The civil war didn't end slavery, it just changed into a new form where the majority of society is effectively enslaved by a multi-racial elite.

Then what are you going to do with his sex slave? Put her to work as a waitress? But she already had something going on! Now you are trying to become Human Resources for everybody.

She came from somewhere, and I am sure I could find someone in the land who is willing to help. Great plot point actually. Rescue the girl, take her to a town I think is safe. Come back later to find out they have essentially enslaved her or even killed her.

Wooo would that piss me off or what... That'd be awesome!

Perhaps I can lead you back to the new Ranger centre. We could use you there, you'll learn skills and earn enough to live on. You are obviously used to hard work, a free man with a strong work ethic can go far in an organisation like the rangers. More importantly we won't hold you there, you can leave if you want.

Or I can take you somewhere else, I'll give you some money to start off with.

Or you could stay here and defend this place, there is space here to grow food, and there are enough of you that someone must know how to fix things up, I'll even contact the ranger centre and get a trainer sent out to show you how to use those left over guns and set up some trade contacts.

Your whole life is ahead of you, and now you have a choice in what to do with it.

You're right. Slavery and the way that characters deal with it opens up all sorts of opportunities and options, and plots and quests.

Encounter: Your party encounters a group of unarmed slaves. (A)ttack,(H)ire,(R)un,(F)ree,(M)aster.

I've been thinking of some way that your Wasteland roster could represent more than seven characters, with sub-rosters. If you take on slaves they could be like NPCs who follow a standing order by a team leader. A team might appear as a sub-roster in the roster, with team leader standing for them in the main roster. Slaves and other team members are on the sub-roster for that leader. He gives them standing orders and they give him bonuses in combat. They support him and/or they battle for him. The members of a team don't have to be slaves; but slaves would take orders without question and without morale modifiers/deteriorations.

[scout]

Slaves? Yes, only because its the wasteland and evil things happen there.

[CaptainPatch]

... instead they came upon me with fire and blade.

FOUL! You changed the dynamic of the banter by declaring "But I _didn't_ hunt them down and kill them outright. They attacked me. ALL of them. Can I help it if they decided suicide-by-Ranger was the way to go (out)?"

Hmm. Okay, let's go this route:
Well, what did you expect them to do? You had already demonstrated your intention to kill any and all slave-owners if they didn't yield to your unilateral demand of "Free your slaves or die!" ("Or die" is what you meant when you said, "Or face the consequences", right?) Facing that kind of deadly threat, attacking you was simply self-defense! YOU forced a good, kind, generous Master into making a choice of turning out those that were under his protection, to face a cruel and heartless world that most did not have the Skills to face head-on, or sally forth in their defense as the Protector he has always been for us!

And what of his wife and children? As you have slain ALL slave-owners, that means that you have slain them as well! Was the wife and children leading the charge that you so Masterfully annihilated? I think not! So, along with all your other accomplishments, you can add "child-killer" to the list!

*****
BTW, as a Desert Ranger out on assignment, you do NOT have the luxury of taking in strays and handing them off to people that you know and trust. If that _did_ become your SOP, you wouldn't be able to go more than several miles before you would have to divert from your course again, and again, and again.... (LOTS of people in need of rescue in the Wasteland.) You would more than likely have to make a hard-and-fast policy of telling rescuees, "There. I saved you from your current hazard. Now it's up to you to get yourself to someplace safe. I suggest that you try to make you to ____. And in the future, be more careful!"

[Woolfe]

Woolfe wrote:... instead they came upon me with fire and blade.


FOUL! You changed the dynamic of the banter by declaring "But I _didn't_ hunt them down and kill them outright. They attacked me. ALL of them. Can I help it if they decided suicide-by-Ranger was the way to go (out)?"

Nope, already stated that sometimes the system enslaves people as much as the slaves themselves. Thats why I would have offered them opportunities, and indeed attempted to parley especially with those who are well thought after. If they aren't willing to talk, I can't help but put them down. I certainly would've initiated the attack on the bad slavers tho.

Hmm. Okay, let's go this route:
Well, what did you expect them to do? You had already demonstrated your intention to kill any and all slave-owners if they didn't yield to your unilateral demand of "Free your slaves or die!" ("Or die" is what you meant when you said, "Or face the consequences", right?) Facing that kind of deadly threat, attacking you was simply self-defense! YOU forced a good, kind, generous Master into making a choice of turning out those that were under his protection, to face a cruel and heartless world that most did not have the Skills to face head-on, or sally forth in their defense as the Protector he has always been for us!

Die or be thrown out. Either or. The second may well have lead to the first.
Your wonderful protector was allowing the system to occur. I will not be held accountable for his choice. The day he chose to accept slaves he started down this path.
Evil prospers where good fails to oppose it.
During his tenure as your master he could of worked towards convincing the others to change, he could of allowed his own slaves freedom, paying them in board and lodgings instead, but no instead he perpetuated the cycle. When I went to him and offered him change, he did not take it, when I attacked he could of defended his own stead and parleyed. Choices were given to him to change the system and he chose to ignore them.
Should I have allowed this disease to grow, and spread, until those who want to work honestly in other townships cannot compete against those who would enslave? Until the disease of slavery spread and grew and took hold such that the system would collapse with its loss. Should I have condemned countless others to the slavers who were not like your master. For no reason other than your personal safety.

And what of his wife and children? As you have slain ALL slave-owners, that means that you have slain them as well! Was the wife and children leading the charge that you so Masterfully annihilated? I think not! So, along with all your other accomplishments, you can add "child-killer" to the list!

So be it. His wife and older children are individuals they had the choice to reject the life they were living and leave it. They chose not to. Can you say the same for your own wife and children. The true tragedy are the youngest, they are innocent of their parents ills. They are the truly wronged here. I will do what I can for them. Perhaps you who so loved his master would take them on. At least allowing them a chance like your own children. I am aware of the problems of my actions, but better remove to the gangrenous hand now even though some of the fingers are healthy, than wait and lose the entire arm later.

BTW, as a Desert Ranger out on assignment, you do NOT have the luxury of taking in strays and handing them off to people that you know and trust. If that _did_ become your SOP, you wouldn't be able to go more than several miles before you would have to divert from your course again, and again, and again.... (LOTS of people in need of rescue in the Wasteland.) You would more than likely have to make a hard-and-fast policy of telling rescuees, "There. I saved you from your current hazard. Now it's up to you to get yourself to someplace safe. I suggest that you try to make you to ____. And in the future, be more careful!"

Yeah, I am hoping the "Ranger Base" will be an option in that you try and build a community. So at least then they can be offered a chance. But even without that chance, there would be enough wealth around that I could at least give some help to those I have freed.
Most situations aren't as dire as slavery. Slaves have nothing, a township under attack, was a township before the attack, so they can continue. And of course, that is the risk I take playing as a paragon of virtue

[CaptainPatch]

During his tenure as your master he could of worked towards convincing the others to change,

How do you know he wasn't doing just that? Not everybody is inclined to change people's lifestyles by demanding, "Do what I tell you to do or die." And he was by no means the ONLY decent slave-owner in the community. Change takes time. Just look at the Ancient History books (Yes, _our_ Master actually encouraged us to learn to read and write and do arithmetic.) and note just how long it took between Emancipation and Civil Rights. Had YOU been in charge, I can well imagine that the South would have been thoroughly carpeted with corpses as you disposed of everyone that didn't comply to your narrow concept of what is or isn't permissible, with the singular "solution" for non-compliance. "They made a wasteland and called it Peace." That's you, to a T.

...he could of allowed his own slaves freedom, paying them in board and lodgings instead,

But that IS what he was doing! We worked and in return, we got everything we needed! Until YOU came along that is.

but no instead he perpetuated the cycle.

According to your standards, EVERYBODY that isn't actively attacking Slavers is complicit with them. Absence of active effort to suppress is a tacit acknowledgement of the institution's legitimacy. And frankly, there ARE communities where the Rule of Law accepts Slavery, and even regulates it to a large extent. Have you decided that all Laws are void unless they are YOUR Laws? Rather arrogant and pompous attitude, don't you think? Do you plan to eventually murder EVERYBODY that doesn't kneel to YOUR Laws? Do you have enough bullets? Because there are several million people on your list.

When I went to him and offered him change, he did not take it, when I attacked he could of defended his own stead and parleyed. Choices were given to him to change the system and he chose to ignore them.

When the choice is, "Do what I demand of you NOW, or die" it isn't much of a choice. How would YOU react if someone pushed his way into YOUR presence and told you, "Do what I tell you to do, NOW, or I will kill you"? Why is it surprising that others had a similar reaction to your ultimatums? Given your arrogant demeanor, how could anyone be expected to conclude anything other than, "If I yield to his demands today, just what outrageous demands will he make of me tomorrow?" "But I would never make outrageous demands! I'm not that kind of person!" you say? How could anyone _know_ that was the case? No one here knows you. (What sane person would? You've probably murdered all of them already.) Just like you obviously didn't know or understand the true character of every person you just executed in your role as Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

BTW, is your name by any chance John Brown?

[Woolfe]

How do you know he wasn't doing just that? Not everybody is inclined to change people's lifestyles by demanding, "Do what I tell you to do or die." And he was by no means the ONLY decent slave-owner in the community. Change takes time. Just look at the Ancient History books (Yes, _our_ Master actually encouraged us to learn to read and write and do arithmetic.) and note just how long it took between Emancipation and Civil Rights. Had YOU been in charge, I can well imagine that the South would have been thoroughly carpeted with corpses as you disposed of everyone that didn't comply to your narrow concept of what is or isn't permissible, with the singular "solution" for non-compliance. "They made a wasteland and called it Peace." That's you, to a T.

Because I spoke with him. He made a choice not to deal with me, perhaps he was fearful. He had a right to be. Perhaps he didn't think me serious. His choice. His mistake.
Indeed and that is the exact example I am trying to avoid, by ending the issue now, before the slavers grew in power and controlled too much influence, as the South did in those heady history books. The result now is tragic, the result in the future would've been devestating.
Do you see a Wasteland? I see only opportunity and freedom for those who are willing to forge a society built on solid foundations, not on the blood of slaves.

But that IS what he was doing! We worked and in return, we got everything we needed! Until YOU came along that is.

And yet you could not walk away, your children could not leave. Your wife could not leave, your brother slaves couldn't leave. Not all of them were as well treated.

According to your standards, EVERYBODY that isn't actively attacking Slavers is complicit with them. Absence of active effort to suppress is a tacit acknowledgement of the institution's legitimacy. And frankly, there ARE communities where the Rule of Law accepts Slavery, and even regulates it to a large extent. Have you decided that all Laws are void unless they are YOUR Laws? Rather arrogant and pompous attitude, don't you think? Do you plan to eventually murder EVERYBODY that doesn't kneel to YOUR Laws? Do you have enough bullets? Because there are several million people on your list.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
A man in your history books said that. Look him up, its obvious your master didn't. (Jefferson by the way )

When the choice is, "Do what I demand of you NOW, or die" it isn't much of a choice. How would YOU react if someone pushed his way into YOUR presence and told you, "Do what I tell you to do, NOW, or I will kill you"? Why is it surprising that others had a similar reaction to your ultimatums? Given your arrogant demeanor, how could anyone be expected to conclude anything other than, "If I yield to his demands today, just what outrageous demands will he make of me tomorrow?" "But I would never make outrageous demands! I'm not that kind of person!" you say? How could anyone _know_ that was the case? No one here knows you. (What sane person would? You've probably murdered all of them already.) Just like you obviously didn't know or understand the true character of every person you just executed in your role as Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

*Shrug* You deam my demands outrageous, and yet have I asked for your freedom. Have I taken you and your family and forced you to perform acts that no matter how willingly done, were never your choice. Did the slavers ask you if you would like to be a slave? Did they ask you before enslaving your children?

I DID ask them to end the slavery, I spoke to them all. I gave them the opportunity to change. They chose not too.

BTW, is your name by any chance John Brown?

An interesting man that, helped start a civil war that defined a great nation for years after.

[ravenshrike]

Slavers die. End of story. There IS no compromise. The idea that the slaves would suddenly die off if you killed their owners is friggin stupid and requires them to have the intellect and survival instinct of the common muttonchop.

[undecaf]

The idea that the slaves would suddenly die off if you killed their owners is friggin stupid and requires them to have the intellect and survival instinct of the common muttonchop.

Who says they don't have exactly that. Having lived under oppression possibly their whole, or most of, lives, not knowing how the world works, noone to guide them anymore (no society or social services and no masters), no experience on living on their own under harsh wasteland conditions, not knowing what to do except to walk on.

Surely, not all would just die off, but no doubt their lives would be as hard, if not even harder, as it was when they were slaves.

This, of course, only concerns long term slaves and not people who'd been semi-recently captured.

[stonetoes]

I demand my personal sex slave!

You demand to be a rapist?

... oh god, not this shit again.

[ravenshrike]

The idea that the slaves would suddenly die off if you killed their owners is friggin stupid and requires them to have the intellect and survival instinct of the common muttonchop.

Who says they don't have exactly that. Having lived under oppression possibly their whole, or most of, lives, not knowing how the world works, noone to guide them anymore (no society or social services and no masters), no experience on living on their own under harsh wasteland conditions, not knowing what to do except to walk on.

Surely, not all would just die off, but no doubt their lives would be as hard, if not even harder, as it was when they were slaves.

This, of course, only concerns long term slaves and not people who'd been semi-recently captured.

Yes, because that applied to black people that escaped slavery in the US. Wait.. no it didn't. Many of them went on to become EXTREMELY productive individuals and the rest were perfectly adept at surviving. Moreover, they would not have the stigma of having been a slave in the rest of the country if they managed to escape.

[CaptainPatch]

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

How much more of a tyrant can one man be than when he dictates to EVERYONE, "Do what _I_ tell you or die!"? If you have _any_ respect for the Rule of Law, then where is Due Process in your methodology? ALL Men are flawed; it takes a psychopath to be convinced that HIS reasoning is absolutely flawless. When YOU take it upon yourself to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner, you abridge the rights of others to create any kind of Rule of Law.

Hmm. Do your superiors know that you are out here destroying established communities in the pursuit of your zealot's beliefs? Given how thinly the Desert Rangers are spread in the Wasteland, you are acting as an ambassador for the Desert Rangers. What YOU do reflects on the organization. How will other communities react to YOUR heavy-handedness, even ones that have no Slavery? All that they will see is that the Desert Rangers are delivering ultimatums that boil down to "Do what we tell you to do or be utterly destroyed!" YOUR actions very probably hasten the reunification of the Wasteland -- against the Desert Rangers! I think that your superiors might be a tad bit displeased with such a possibility.

YOUR beliefs imposed upon others in the manner that you use is as oppressive as the most vile of tyrants in history. It is more of a theocracy when one pursues such a violent course with such burning fervor. You actively destroy Order and leave Chaos in your wake. You are a destroyer of nearly everything you touch, until all that remains after you have "cleansed" the lands are ONLY those things that YOU personally will allow.

Your name is NOT John Brown. Your name is Apocalypse.

[Zeful]

Slavers die. End of story. There IS no compromise. The idea that the slaves would suddenly die off if you killed their owners is friggin stupid and requires them to have the intellect and survival instinct of the common muttonchop.

Given that with their owner would have been making all the decisions as to where food, weapons, and training came from and went to, a group of former slaves are literally the easiest target in the world, on par with civilians from a collapsed modern society. They'd try to survive, but given the separation between what the slave knew and the reality of the scenario, they wouldn't know how to do quite a lot of things. So no it's not.

Treating this issue as black and white is stupid, what about indentured servitude? Or people who willingly entered slavery specifically for the security of having a roof over their head, and meal in their stomach every night? The fringe cases where it's not so clearly divided into "good" and "evil".

[kwanzaabot]

I'm reminded of Fallout 3's salvery. I was really into that at first, it seemed really interesting. But it just fell flat. The slavers need to be a bit more "deep" than "evil bad men profiting by kidnapping people and selling them into slavery" and if you're allowed to help slavers, there should be some obvious reason for doing so. A good example is selling your captured enemies into slavery? You make money, you punish your enemies, but maybe this decision isn't all that moral. Maybe it has unintended consequences.

The Pitt DLC definitely helped flesh out the whole slavery thing, IMHO.

Although, why they couldn't just leave Pittsburgh and settle somewhere, well, safer, is anyone's guess.

[stonetoes]

I think some of the assumptions here about how pitiably impotent slaves would be are not looking at the whole picture. For instance look at Primo Levi's memoir of being used as slave labour in a concentration camp. Or Art Spiegelman's Maus. Both paint a picture of people who have to be incredibly resourceful and quick-witted to survive, not to mention ruthless in some cases. Hell, look at any account of prison life, and how cut-throat it is, how ingenious prisoners can be.

Drawing parallels to modern day prisoners becoming institutionalised is a mistake in my opinion. As far as I can tell, the problem that these prisoners have is that the world they come back to is so different to the one they lived in prison. I would guess that surviving as a post-apocalyptic slave is not that different to surviving as a post-apocalyptic freeman.