Machismo

[Leif]

I think machismo should be apart of the post-collapse society, but mocked given the new realities of the rather Darwinian wasteland. As traditional society breaks down so will the typical understanding of the nuclear family.

[Josh Finney]

I think you guys are missing my point. Of course it's fine for certain characters to be macho, as long as that's part of the story. I'm saying that I don't want the game to be built on machismo. I don't want every line of dialogue to be various forms of "LOOK AT ALL DAT JUICE" and "BOOYAH". I don't want every character to look like a pro wrestler. I don't want the game to be one continuous brofist.

I have faith the writing will be solid since they've got Stackpole on the team.

[Therumancer]

My basic opinion is that machismo fits the action and apocolyptic generes, like it or not these kind of hardcore "manly men" are the ones who generally get this kind of stuff done IRL. Games exagerrate everything for the purposes of entertainment, making it bigger than life, but it's a basic truth.

Honestly complaints about Machismo seem to largely be made by modern meterosexuals and a certain breed of feminist (not all feminists though) that come accross as being threatened by the stereotype, since it pretty much places a value on everything they are personally trying to get away from.

The thing is that in situations like "Wasteland" all of those metrosexuals and such died horribly during the war, and those that didn't either toughened up or died. Humanity pretty much regressed away from the soft modern living that makes such a mindset valid. The same can be applied to things like "Gears Of War" where the whole scenario is one where the characters your looking at are EXACTLY the kinds of dudes that would survive in that situation.

Like everything there are exceptions, "Gordan Freeman" is a popular character because he's pretty much a nerd with a gun... "Chuck Norris in a Geek Form" as the Miracle Of Sound song lyrics go. That kind of thing works when it stands out, it can't really carry itself when that's what every character is.

That said as our friend with the pics pointed out, this is a party based game (or should be) there isn't going to be a singular hero. Besides, if the base party is creatable (as it should be) those who hate Machismo can name their characters after the cast of "Seinfeld" and imagine them whining about lattes and their dating lives as they wander through the wasteland, in vein hope of finding skin moistner and a functional cell phone tower.

[Tanglebones]

My basic opinion is that machismo fits the action and apocolyptic generes, like it or not these kind of hardcore "manly men" are the ones who generally get this kind of stuff done IRL. Games exagerrate everything for the purposes of entertainment, making it bigger than life, but it's a basic truth.

Would the type of "manly man" who gets things done be more of a Bill Gates, or more of a Joan of Arc? Maybe FDR is more your type of "manly" man, or Hitler (not because he was a Nazi, because he was a scrawny thing... he did, nonetheless, get things done)? Point being, while it is possible to be both a musclebound jock and an entreprenurial or driven or accomplished person (cf. Schwarzenegger), as many or more people who "get things done" are not physically imposing people.

Honestly complaints about Machismo seem to largely be made by modern meterosexuals and a certain breed of feminist (not all feminists though) that come accross as being threatened by the stereotype, since it pretty much places a value on everything they are personally trying to get away from.

Good point. I always find that throwing in some random sexism really ads credence to my argument too. So. Your position is hella gay.

The thing is that in situations like "Wasteland" all of those metrosexuals and such died horribly during the war, and those that didn't either toughened up or died. Humanity pretty much regressed away from the soft modern living that makes such a mindset valid. The same can be applied to things like "Gears Of War" where the whole scenario is one where the characters your looking at are EXACTLY the kinds of dudes that would survive in that situation.

Oh, I get it! It was a sexist nuclear holocaust! That makes perfect sense now!

Again, while it is possible to be both a musclehead and a survivor, being a musclehead doesn't actually give you that much better odds, except, you know, in situations involving physical combat. Much more important than being a physically imposing person is being resourceful, clever, and surrounding yourself with people who you can trust.

Like everything there are exceptions, "Gordan Freeman" is a popular character because he's pretty much a nerd with a gun... "Chuck Norris in a Geek Form" as the Miracle Of Sound song lyrics go. That kind of thing works when it stands out, it can't really carry itself when that's what every character is.

If I'm following your reasoning... we can't have any characters other than macho characters, because having characters other than macho characters can't "carry itself" when that's what every character is. So instead, every character should be a macho character. You know boy, I think you may be legally retarded.

That said as our friend with the pics pointed out, this is a party based game (or should be) there isn't going to be a singular hero. Besides, if the base party is creatable (as it should be) those who hate Machismo can name their characters after the cast of "Seinfeld" and imagine them whining about lattes and their dating lives as they wander through the wasteland, in vein hope of finding skin moistner and a functional cell phone tower.

Oh right. Because obviously, anyone who disagrees with you that Wasteland should be wall-to-wall bromoeroticism wants to play with the cast of Seinfeld. What you're doing there is called a false dichotomy. That's what happens when you present two options as if they were the only two options, usually while presenting one option as highly undesireable in an attempt to make a weak possition (yours) look stronger than it is. I guess they don't teach logic in "how to be a Gears of War bro" class, hey?

Also, Seinfeld took place before cell phones were common. Seinfeld has a car phone, but it shows up in one, maybe two episodes. It's funny because most of the plots of Seinfeld work on the fact that two characters are separated and can't communicate some important tidbit of information to each other. So. You know. Most of Seinfeld wouldn't have "worked" if they had cell phones. You might want to check Amazon.com for a book called How to Insult People Without Looking Like a Clueless Dick Yourself before your next try.

[Clockwork Knight]

You know boy, I think you may be legally retarded.

Someone is very upset about jocks.

[krellen]

You know boy, I think you may be legally retarded.

Someone is very upset about jocks.

Nah, he just wants the jocks to stand in front of him and absorb bullets while he gets the generator running.

[Wisteso]

Perhaps I'm wrong on this but I think the OP was expressing his concern in W2 following in the footsteps of games like Gears of War, Halo, Modern Warfare, etc - where most of characters are either "bros" or "grrrls".

Which probably isn't a very justified concern considering how anti-mainstream a game like Wasteland 2 will probably be. Not to say that it wont do amazingly, but it's certainly not targeting the "bros of america" audience like the above mentioned games have.

[Tanglebones]

You know boy, I think you may be legally retarded.

Someone is very upset about jocks.

I'm less upset about jocks and more upset about reading stupid arguments. I think (as I've said earlier in this thread) that projecting an attitude like you're one bad mother would be a pretty valid survival tactic in the Wasteland. I think it's pretty dumb to assume that it'd be the only viable survival tactic, or that the game would somehow be more interesting if it consisted of only jocks (which is what the post I was responding to was arguing).

[BlackGauntlet]

Wasteland should be a place where both Duke Nukem and Gordon Freeman can team up in the same Ranger squad.

[ravenshrike]

Wasteland should be a place where both Duke Nukem and Gordon Freeman can team up in the same Ranger squad.

Gordon freeman was in good enough shape to beat Vortigaunts to death with a crowbar. And continuously fire a weapon throughout the day, which definitely takes arm and grip strength.

[krellen]

Wasteland should be a place where both Duke Nukem and Gordon Freeman can team up in the same Ranger squad.

Gordon freeman was in good enough shape to beat Vortigaunts to death with a crowbar. And continuously fire a weapon throughout the day, which definitely takes arm and grip strength.

Strength and Stamina do not make Macho.

[stonetoes]

I once read a great effort post on the Something Awful forums by a guy who had been in military prison and then worked in prisons for a long time. I've forgotten the terminology, but in it he basically talked about the difference between displayed aggression for the purposes of intimidating people, and aggression for the purposes of killing people.

Displayed aggression is like when animals of the same species fight and threaten each-other, usually in a ritualised way, until one of them runs away. This is what humans in most situations do, and is pretty much what machismo is. It's acting tough and aggressive in order to avoid violence.

The other kind of aggression is what animals do when they're hunting and, supposedly, what prison inmates use when trying to kill someone. There's no machismo, no trying to act tough, or big muscles, just stabbing someone 100 times with a shiv in 60 seconds because if you don't something worse will happen to you.

I think this gets to the heart of what the OP is talking about. In the post-apocalypse you might find people who posture and act macho, but chances are they're not the dangerous ones. The ones who slit your throat while you're asleep are the dangerous ones.

When it comes to the rangers I believe we should see something similar. There was a TV program here a few years ago where former SAS members trained civilians as if they were prospective members. At the end they had to choose one person who they would hypothetically want on their team during an operation. The person they chose wasn't the most aggressive, or the strongest, or the most intimidating, it was the woman who kept calm, listened to what they told her, and followed her training under pressure.

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly and really hope we see a more realistic vision of the kinds of people who actually survive in the wasteland.


See also: the studies by the US army which found that pre-Vietnam the vast majority of soldiers who shot directly at the enemy were clinical psychopaths.

[LordLJ]

I agree with OP when it comes to stupid macho (I.E. Everyone is a BRO FO LIFE). Machismo has a place in this type of game, either in the form of a serious topic to be explored, or you can just be a badass.

Let's just not aim for the lowest marker, and be stupid, when it comes to including machismo.

[stonetoes]

Oh yeah, for the best macho character of all time: http://youtu.be/M5bVYOmQZC8

[LordLJ]

Oh yeah, for the best macho character of all time: http://youtu.be/M5bVYOmQZC8

Pffffffffff, aren't you thinking of Mori? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icDJoMRUKfE

[stonetoes]

Oh yeah, for the best macho character of all time: http://youtu.be/M5bVYOmQZC8

Pffffffffff, aren't you thinking of Mori? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icDJoMRUKfE

Awww, poor Brucie, I feel bad for him now. That was aweseome though.

[Virus_ST]

I too don't want the Desert Rangers posing for the camera looking cool and tough like Commander Shepard for ME3. That shit is really really gay.



Don't you just wanna slap him and say 'Stop it. Just stop.'

[Tanglebones]

I too don't want the Desert Rangers posing for the camera looking cool and tough like Commander Shepard for ME3. That shit is really really gay.



Don't you just wanna slap him and say 'Stop it. Just stop.'

I always played a lady Shepard because the dude Shepard makes me want to slap him. Even when he's not posing. Guy just looks like an asshole.

[Gennadios]

This strip is relevant to the topic.



With that said, I wouldn't mind a bit of Spartan style camaraderie in WL2.

[katz]

Totally agree with the OP. The rangers should be tough and capable; they shouldn't all look and act like pro wrestlers (unless the player wants a party of pro wrestlers).