"Old School RPG" thanks, but no thanks.

[krellen]

picking individual targets for the rangers?
Choose the mode of fire for individual member of the team?

I combined these because they go together for me:
I want to pick groups, not individuals.
Shoot one guy in that group, fire a burst into that group, empty a clip in that group's general direction.

being able to change position for individual ranger during combat?

The Wasteland system for this sucked pretty hard. A system that sucks less for moving would be a good tweak.

Would it be OK if a certain position/stance provided a better protection from incoming fire?

That's starting to get a bit too complicated.

Fog of war?

That's okay. Wasteland had it.

[paultakeda]

I quite literally never met a group of people that delibaratly wanted a dumbed down combat in the game, this is new to me so I am trying to see if there is a system we can all live with. Because the Original wasteland combat would be a grave dissapointment to me.
Will you be opposed to:
picking individual targets for the rangers?
being able to change position for individual ranger during combat?
Choose the mode of fire for individual member of the team?
Would it be OK if a certain position/stance provided a better protection from incoming fire?
Fog of war?

I mean those are basic tactical building blocks-it need not get more complicated than that in the worst case scenario.

Take any game with combat and state the goal of the game. Civilization has combat. Do you necessarily want this combat to be fully actualized beyond stacked tiles representing units with basic metrics for attack strength, health and defense?

Game balance. This is the point. Wasteland is a type of game that has combat but it also has exploration and world interaction with significant consequences. Combat is not its raison d'être. So yes, it cannot be as deep as a tactical combat sim. You are approaching things from the opposite side of adding RPG elements to a game like FO:T. We are approaching it as adding more tactical elements to Wasteland, a classic CRPG system. There is no dumbing down, there are levels of granularity and those are dependent upon the balance of all the elements of a game.

This is the same argument when it comes to those who want to add micromanaged survival elements, base camp outfitting/upgrading/resource management, and minigames. You are putting all the things you like into this one game when this one game should focus itself on what it is meant to be.

[ffordesoon]

I do think positioning should matter somewhat. That doesn't have to translate into something so complex that it's boring, but maneuvering one of my dudes behind a wall should at least substantially reduce the chance of getting blasted to bits. This is one of the things I find so damn aggravating about MMOs like WOW; I shouldn't just be hit by any attack from an enemy regardless of where I'm standing. That's dumb and not fun.

Wasteland actually does include the beginnings of a positioning system anyway, though I've not yet been able to get it to work in any real way. People on here have said it does, though, so I'll take their word for it.

I think they should probably go for something like the system in the SSI Gold Box games, except with guns and a little bit of the positioning stuff from Fallout Tactics. Nothing too drawn-out, but not so simple that it's boring, either.

Now that I think about it, the new Firaxis XCOM's combat seems like it might be an interesting model for Wasteland 2 to adapt...

[paultakeda]

I think they should probably go for something like the system in the SSI Gold Box games, except with guns and a little bit of the positioning stuff from Fallout Tactics. Nothing too drawn-out, but not so simple that it's boring, either.

Heh. I remember posting a video of a PoolRad battle as something to consider now that we know WL2 combat will be visualized, but all I got out of that were comments about how it looked old and wasn't Wasteland.

That said, I've already described how movement and tactics would work in another thread. Man, it's just tactics posting day today on the boards.

[Inca]

This is the same argument when it comes to those who want to add micromanaged survival elements, base camp outfitting/upgrading/resource management, and minigames. You are putting all the things you like into this one game when this one game should focus itself on what it is meant to be.

You misjudge the place where I am coming from. I do not want a tactical sim. I want an RPG with strong foundation in reality, and I am willing to "eat" everything that comes with it. JA2 in my mind to this day is the best "crack" at such a game. There is nothing wrong with it, except I have played 20 times through it and the graphics are 13 y.o.. I am also fascinated with Post-Apocalyptic setting. This is the reason I support WL2.
Some of the best games out there are combinations of genres: Total War series, Pirates!, XCOM, JA2, they don't lack focus, their focus is in the fact that life is more complex than a single specific layer of operation. We have individual, group and society mechanics affecting us.
Handling of the combat is a multifaceted approach. Saturating a game with gratuitous waves of combat is tirenig to everyone. Why would one need to fight mutated bunnies? Combat has to be relatively rare and meaningful-that way if you prevail tactically, it would be a satisfying experience. Of course if you have to tactically massage an evil spore plant, than it borderlines ridiculous and combat becomes a drag.

[Rzarkrusz Rowa]

When I can have a combat go like this:

Ship lands.
Rocket Dude steps out of ship.
Rocket Dude is possessed by alien hidden by fog of war.
Rocket Dude launches rocket into ship killing entire party.

I get really sick of even bothering.

You can't get reaction-possessed, so I suspect that it happened during the alien turn. Which means that you have finished your turn with soldiers packed up in the ship instead of being dispersed outside. It's purely your fault that you have lost the whole team.

If something like that happens to you, you aren't supposed to repeat the same error again and again. You are supposed to solve the problem, not blame the game for introducing the problem as a challenge.

[Lucius]

Krellen makes a point regarding groups. It's possible this mechanic could be implemented by considering enemies on adjacent tiles to each other be considered a "group" You rip a clip into a group and you can kill multiple enemies. I'm curious to see how that group mechanic from Wasteland will translate, if at all.

Personally I like the idea of using character skills to emulate tactical combat. I'd love to have fully deep tactical system but I don't like micro-managing! Having tactics tied to the character's weapon skill or something for them to automatically perform these advanced tactics would work and feel very much like an RPG. I also envision out in the desert a random encounter with a pack of wolves, at mid to high level, you would just stand there and pick them off, i.e. no tactics necessary. This would be the equivalent of pressing (A)ttack, (S)ingle, (1) 4 Wolves. However, a situation like raiding Ugly's hideout should take a lot of positioning and should not be a 5 min affair.

That said, I've already described how movement and tactics would work in another thread. Man, it's just tactics posting day today on the boards.

That's because a large part of the other hot topics have now been firmly clarified in Update #11 while tactical combat was mentioned but not in depth.

[BlackGauntlet]

Well, OP, perhaps you might wanna kickstart the sequel of Boomtown: The Aftermath? It's everything you listed (minus the diseases and combat tactics). I can tell you... it's boring as hell.

[Inca]

Why would I Kickstart something that has no disease and tactics? (i.e 2 out of 3 things that I wanted), besides, game being boring is execution fault, not necessaraly concept.

[Woolfe]

So would a skill mechanic resolve your food/water type issues?

So you have the survivalist skill (which includes living off the land).

If you don't have that skill, then anytime you roam the wilderness you need to basically pack a bunch of food and water, above any normal provisions you might have on you.

The skill level takes into account the different areas.

So skill level 1 - Doesn't need to constantly carry food and water in lush fertile areas. Instead they just automatically forage as they roam, and hunt and forage as part of camp/resting. In addition supplies last longer in areas that you can't forage completely in.

Up to skill 20 - Doesn't need to constantly carry food and water in dead areas. Able to forage effectively to survive even in the most desolate area.

So if you go into the more desolate areas, you will need to carry some degree of food/water, but if you up you skill in that, then the requirement goes away.

It is simply assumed that you always have a degree of "provisions" on you. If you intend to go into the wilderness you may need to supplement to those provisions, or ensure you are good enough at foraging etc to ensure you don't exhaust your provisions supply.

[paultakeda]

If you don't have that skill, then anytime you roam the wilderness you need to basically pack a bunch of food and water, above any normal provisions you might have on you.

I'd modify this. There is no 'provisions' in inventory. In WL1, no canteen means heat damage. This should be the same way, roaming in a wilderness with no canteen or "mess kit" incurs heat damage for the canteen and for the mess kit, say an attribute modifier: ST, AGL, DEX and SP are all - 1. Go another day constant in the wilderness, it might go -2.

[Gizmo]

... I started to see a trend where a few forum members imply that due to their experience with Pen and Paper RPGs and their countless hours with WL1, they know better how the WL2 has to work.

Honest question: I do not have countless hours in either PNP or Wasteland... but for those who do ~especially with Wasteland... Why wouldn't they know better how WL2 should work? Seriously. What's your reasoning about that?

They do not want to bother with combat beyond a simple dice roll at the encounter. They do not want to deal with water and food shortage, they do not want to care about the weight of items, they do not need tactics, animations, graphics, character creation etc. because 30 years ago all of this did not exist.

All 'what' did not exist? Food Rations? Lots of RPGs (PnP and cRPGs) had starvation and inventory weight ~hell, in Pool of Radiance, you can lose up to 7 squares off your movement in combat for carrying too much money!

Now a game like that would be rather disappointing experience for me

The game is for Brian, and the fans of Wasteland; anyone else is welcome.

I want a tactical combat.
I want to deal with water and food shortages.
I want to deal with diseases.
I want to deal with inventory weight.
I want mounts and vehicles
I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

In short I do not see why difficulties of survival have to be eliminated from the ravaged world. Why simple common sense realities are an impediment to the story or Game play-they are the game play and the story.

I have never understood the bias prejudice against dice rolls, or a weighted dice based skill or combat system. The rest of what you mention is wonderful to find in a game ~but... only Brian Fargo should decide whether any of that is appropriate to this specific franchise ~specifically. Just because it's great in a game, does not mean it's great (or appropriate) in every game. *(Something we see all too commonly done with First Person Perspective.)

There is no power armor or laser canon-the world is devastated-who has the resources to develop this technology, and why would you, when there are so many other technological challenges around?

You find it in a post war location (that hasn't been found or successfully robbed yet); or you get if from somebody who looted it. You might also find a power armor tech who worked on the suits those many years ago; might have been them that looted them ~they knew they were there.

* If you ever played Fallout, you recall that the Brotherhood had [salvaged pre-war] power armor ~but that they could not design new ones, just repair those that they had parts for.

[Woolfe]

If you don't have that skill, then anytime you roam the wilderness you need to basically pack a bunch of food and water, above any normal provisions you might have on you.

I'd modify this. There is no 'provisions' in inventory. In WL1, no canteen means heat damage. This should be the same way, roaming in a wilderness with no canteen or "mess kit" incurs heat damage for the canteen and for the mess kit, say an attribute modifier: ST, AGL, DEX and SP are all - 1. Go another day constant in the wilderness, it might go -2.

Fair enough, So you might have a "canteen" and a "long life Rations pack" In most locations you would only need 1 of each as you would be mostly living off the land. However if you were planning to go desert for a while, and had a low survival skill, you might stock up on a couple of extra ration packs and canteens. They would have a "percentage fullness" that would be reduced each day based on factors, including a survival skill (ability to live off land to some degree, AND maybe also to go without for longer)

And yeah when you run out, you start getting hungry, which starts to negatively affect you. penalties gradually affecting you until you die...

[Woolfe]

I have never understood the bias prejudice against dice rolls, or a weighted dice based skill or combat system. The rest of what you mention is wonderful to find in a game ~but... only Brian Fargo should decide whether any of that is appropriate to this specific franchise ~specifically. Just because it's great in a game, does not mean it's great (or appropriate) in every game. *(Something we see all too commonly done with First Person Perspective.)

Yeah especially as a dice roll is a Random Number Generator. That is ALL it is. Nothing else.
Computer games can only exist because of Random Number Generators. They are just a lot more complex than a d6.

[Gizmo]

And yeah when you run out, you start getting hungry, which starts to negatively affect you. penalties gradually affecting you until you die...

This sounds fine... Sounds like we could do one better and copy Realms of Arkana; and have the PC's shoes wear out on the trip; have them get sick if they trek barefoot through marshes, or sleep in the rain. (Yes I'm serious. )

** My gosh, that avatar is Lawson's art; Are you a "Mutants Down Under" player by chance?

[Woolfe]

And yeah when you run out, you start getting hungry, which starts to negatively affect you. penalties gradually affecting you until you die...

This sounds fine... Sounds like we could do one better and copy Realms of Arkana; and have the PC's shoes wear out on the trip; have them get sick if they trek barefoot through marshes, or sleep in the rain. (Yes I'm serious. )

Kind of missing the whole "Skill that reduces the effect comment" but sure
I was looking for ways to implement the idea of food and Water requirements in a way that wouldn't be onerous, and would take into account your skills.
So if you have Survivalist skill, you don't need to buy food and water because you do it automatically in the background as you roam. Sorta like Bear Grills drinking his own pee

** My gosh, that avatar is Lawson's art; Are you a "Mutants Down Under" player by chance?

Indeed I am... Well was... well.. wanted to.. unfortunately never really got a group going with it, but always wanted to.

plus someone made a comment about Mutant Kangaroos and it inspired me as I am an Aussie

[paultakeda]

Fair enough, So you might have a "canteen" and a "long life Rations pack"

These items as described represent two different mechanics.

The canteen implies a ranger is capable of collecting water at all times as long as the canteen is in inventory. The rations pack is "auto-used" until depleted, meaning it has a direct effect.

I would rather the "rations pack" be a "scrounger kit", which implies the ranger is using it to trap lizards, test fruit for toxins, etc. It does not exhaust itself and therefore operates like the canteen as an item that reduces or eliminates negative stat hits when present at the sacrifice of inventory space. Spending on a skill to replace these items moves the compromise from inventory to skill buy.

[Leona]

I want a tactical combat.

I dig that, something like x-com enemy unknown or JA2

I want to deal with water and food shortages.

It should be more of a quest, rather then mechanic (it's not survival simulator)

I want to deal with diseases.

Yeah! Something like STD caught from waste-hooker or random encounter.

I want to deal with inventory weight.

Good idea

I want mounts and vehicles

Very rare and hard to get (fix)

I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

+1

[Rzarkrusz Rowa]

Wasteland actually does include the beginnings of a positioning system anyway, though I've not yet been able to get it to work in any real way. People on here have said it does, though, so I'll take their word for it.

Generally, positioning is important for avoiding enemy automatic fire and maximizing effects of the party's fire-power.
You need to disperse your party to avoid having everyone take damage from one burst of enemy fire and you need to close to enemies to maximize your hits.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Kind of missing the whole "Skill that reduces the effect comment" but sure
I was looking for ways to implement the idea of food and Water requirements in a way that wouldn't be onerous, and would take into account your skills.
So if you have Survivalist skill, you don't need to buy food and water because you do it automatically in the background as you roam. Sorta like Bear Grills drinking his own pee

This is good!

I agree the game can be enhanced by more environmental skills/items. It's the Canteen principle. It doesn't involve the player deciding where to find food or water or changes of clothing. But, otoh, if it is a skill then it's something that improves. So, there must be some easier and some more difficult environments. So it is some kind of combination of the Canteen principle and the Climb principle. MSPE has "Environmental survival" skills, fwiw.