Good Crafting system

[tekhedd]

Today I was happily watching a trailer for "Xenoblade Chronicles," and thinking how I haven't played a JRPG style game in quite some time. And then a clip showed how weapon crafting works. BLECH! Crafting! OK, so there's one more game off the list.

Then it hit me. How could you ruin Wasteland? Make me carry around a bunch of stuff hoping that I can find the right recipe and workbench so that I can assemble it into other bag-filling ingredients that someday, after weeks of grinding, I can combine into the second-best weapon available in the game, which you will complete constructing about ten minutes before you find the best weapon available in the game, causing you to then give the crafted weapon to an NPC since you no longer need it.

Or worse, have a complicated crafting system that mostly makes things you don't need, filling the world with junk. (Fallout 3 anyone?)

Oh sure, a little customization here and there is a good thing, but a full-blown crafting system, that would make 2013 the most disappointing year ever. Seriously.

[ravenshrike]

The biggest problem with crafting in Fallout 3 and NV is that the way the UI is hardcoded in the Gamebryo engine makes for really shitty selection issues. Properly streamlined with a decent font size and recipe info it wouldn't be a big deal.

[tekhedd]

The biggest problem with crafting in Fallout 3 and NV is that the way the UI is hardcoded in the Gamebryo engine makes for really shitty selection issues. Properly streamlined with a decent font size and recipe info it wouldn't be a big deal.

Maybe for you. For me "crafting" is in the same category as "press X to not die". It's one of those MMO tricks to keep you subscribed longer that has infected single-player games. Hey I know some people don't agree. I'm using F3 as an example here but my hatred of crafting started in MMOs. Look at how much fun it added to City of Heroes etc? Oh right it didn't.

[Vryheid]

The biggest problem with crafting in Fallout 3 and NV is that the way the UI is hardcoded in the Gamebryo engine makes for really shitty selection issues. Properly streamlined with a decent font size and recipe info it wouldn't be a big deal.

Fallout New Vegas had pretty limited crafting. All you could do in it was make a few basic items and ammunition, and you didn't build your crafting skills through practice. If a game has crafting, I want it to be a complex multi-disciplinary crafting system with discoverable schematics and crafter oriented quests. It really isn't that hard to develop, it just requires a fair amount of preparation during the initial game design phase to make sure crafting supplies and tools are properly distributed throughout the game world.

Final Fantasy XIV has one of the best crafting systems I've ever seen, despite being a fairly mediocre game otherwise. It's also designed for cooperation between groups, which would work well with the party system included with Wasteland 2.

[Thrin]

I think a designing a great crafting system is basically designing a great game unto itself.

For the scope of this project I don't think trying to do a crafting system is worthwhile.

I'd rather see the resources that would be used to design a crafting system being allocated to another zone, a lot of great quests, or just plain more items.

[alanschu]

Hmmm, I love crafting, but don't see it as vital.

I particularly love crafting if there's a survival mechanic to the game. It was woefully underutilized in FONV. Survivalist skill had a lot of neat ideas, but ultimately wasn't very useful.

I'm not someone that carries around everything just in case it can make something awesome though. I rarely go "mat farming" until I know what materials I actually need.

[Drool]

Fallout New Vegas had pretty limited crafting. All you could do in it was make a few basic items and ammunition, and you didn't build your crafting skills through practice.

Well, it improved through boosting the associated skill.

That being said, I thought the cooking (like the cooking in Skyrim) fell under the heading of, "This is neat, but..." I mean, I thought it was a pretty neat idea, but it more or less fell flat on its face and ultimately felt pretty pointless. The ammo crafting, however, I quite liked. Especially with the Hand Loader perk which opened up many more options for more useful rounds. I just wished there had been more. Especially for 9mm.

[Necrox]

I don't MIND crafting, I can usually just.. well choose to NOT do it. I do enjoy it in MMO's myself, but not so much in single player games.
Personally I'd prefer just and upgrading/improvement system instead of a crafting system.

Fallout had the right idea, with some quests you could do to improve certain items to make them awesome, rather than having to lug around 800 barrels of junk "in case you might need it for making something".

[Ted]

Crafting in Jagged Alliance was okay for me.

But I agree: it is terrible to carry a lot of trash only in the hope for an ultimative weapon or item. It would be better if nearly every single item for crafting has also a useful function for its own. The few items without a specific function (like wires, glues, etc.) should be small and easy to carry.

[ffordesoon]

I like crafting.

And you don't have to do it in Xenoblade Chronicles, FYI.

[LordLJ]

Crafting would be fantastic to have, but it has to have more effects for you beyond just getting a better weapon.

Say you are playing a mechanic. You stroll into farmvile looking to rest, when the citizens run up to you begging for help. Bandits shot up there water pump, and stole the replacement parts. They want you to fight the hardened bandits to save the town!

Forget that. You just grab some nearby junk, and jury rig the pump to pump water again. Twice as fast and clean. You can sleep with any farmgirl you want that night.

This is just a small example, but having crafting be a robust system, that allows you to create and affect things beyond just making a better gun, would add a lot to gameplay.

[Shady314]

Crafting can have it's place in a game. Especially if they are going to go deeply into the base building aspect of Ranger Center.
It's a great way to expand on skills like repair, doctor, cyborg tech etc.

I know this is a very ugly word but they just need to streamline it. NOT dumb it down but eliminate the need to carry massive amounts of crap in the hope it might somehow be useful later on. Using FO2 as an example there was a "junk" inventory item that resembled an assortment of broken electronic equipment. Something like that resembling perhaps material crafting supplies, another for electronic crafting supplies etc. That you would bring back to Ranger Center (sole location to craft stuff) and they would use the manufacturing facilities there to make more ammo/armor available for example and have it take in game time. Just brainstorming.

[LordLJ]

Crafting can have it's place in a game. Especially if they are going to go deeply into the base building aspect of Ranger Center.
It's a great way to expand on skills like repair, doctor, cyborg tech etc.

I know this is a very ugly word but they just need to streamline it. NOT dumb it down but eliminate the need to carry massive amounts of crap in the hope it might somehow be useful later on. Using FO2 as an example there was a "junk" inventory item that resembled an assortment of broken electronic equipment. Something like that resembling perhaps material crafting supplies, another for electronic crafting supplies etc. That you would bring back to Ranger Center (sole location to craft stuff) and they would use the manufacturing facilities there to make more ammo/armor available for example and have it take in game time. Just brainstorming.

Streamlining would be excellent for crafting.

You could also try something where, instead of crafting being based around single components you carry around, you mark resources for pick up by other rangers. If all crafting is done at Ranger Base, then everything you marked while out trekking will be available for you to use, and you won't have to lug everything around.

You could also just make crafting components weightless, if you wanted something easy.

[ffordesoon]

Yeah, marking mineral deposits and the like for transport back to California Base so you can craft stuff there might be neat.

[Shady314]

Yeah, marking mineral deposits and the like for transport back to California Base so you can craft stuff there might be neat.

I dislike marking deposits. That's lazy design and feels more like dumbing down. Find item on map. Click on it. Maybe click on it with the new Surveyor/Geologist skill. Boom you've gained iron? lithium? uranium? You know cyborg tech would require exotic materials you're not going to just find in California. Also how much? Unlimited amounts? Reminds me of DA2 and that's not a good thing.

If we want to set up supply lines for crafting I'd rather find a town like Redding and work out a deal. Or set up Ranger Center by some old scrapyard etc.

[LordLJ]

Oh, relying on towns to support your crafting needs would be interesting.

That would bring whole new reasons to helping out towns. Say Ranger Center needs a certain resource that a local town controls. You have to do missions for them in exchange for trade. The game could add a really nice political layer if this system was used.

[LordLJ]

Maybe the game should have two systems of crafting. One system for personal items, and maybe another for Ranger Base.

All weaponry, armor, etc. your characters use will be made by them. If you want to upgrade Ranger Base, you have to help settlements, so the settlements will give you access to their resources.

You can also have these two systems influence each other. Example: You're characters can only make basic guns and armor, but once certain parts of Ranger Base have been created, your characters now have access to new types of craftable items.

[ffordesoon]

@Shady314:

Is it any lazier than making crafting items weightless, though?

Basically, the question at hand is how to make crafting fun, functional, easy, and plausible within the world without making it the centerpiece of the game. Marking items for other dudes to pick up is the smartest option I can think of to deal with that. If it has weight, then you're either constantly trekking back to Ranger Center/California Base, or you're using conveniently placed workbenches as in Bethesda's games, which is implausible as hell. If it doesn't weigh anything, I suppose that might be better in some ways, but then it just feels tacky and peripheral. And yet, I can't think of any other ways to do it at the moment.

Hmm...

@LordLJ:

The political dimension of crafting might be an interesting one to explore, yes. That could make it too central, though.

[LordLJ]

Aye, Ranger Base crafting shouldn't be THE reason the Rangers do what they do. Still, it would give the Ranger some context for their actions beyond just being a good ranger.

[Shady314]

@Shady314:Is it any lazier than making crafting items weightless, though?

Maybe you confused me with someone else. I don't like that idea either and didn't suggest it. Junk had weight in FO2. At least I remember it having weight.

Basically, the question at hand is how to make crafting fun, functional, easy, and plausible within the world without making it the centerpiece of the game.

And I think "marking" deposits is extremely implausible. It requires an entire infrastructure. People who scout the land for them and know what they are looking for and where to look. People who mine it. Transport it and then finally manufacture from it. Setting up that entire infrastructure from scratch would require making it a large part of the game.

If it has weight, then you're either constantly trekking back to Ranger Center/California Base,

Which you should be doing anyways.

or you're using conveniently placed workbenches as in Bethesda's games, which is implausible as hell.

I agree. That's why I said make RC the sole location for crafting. I might be wrong but it seems like Ranger Center is going to be an important place I expect to spend a good amount of time at.

If it doesn't weigh anything, I suppose that might be better in some ways, but then it just feels tacky and peripheral. And yet, I can't think of any other ways to do it at the moment.

? Make it have weight. It forces the choice. IF you are engaging in crafting maybe it's worth grabbing and bringing back. Or maybe you just make a note of it and come back another time because right now your supplies are high and you've found kewler items to bring with you. You can't make it SO easy it takes no effort. That's the point to me where streamlining becomes dumbing down. Again I'm not saying discovering resources in the game world to supply your base is a bad one. Just needs to be a little better than "marking deposits."

The political dimension of crafting might be an interesting one to explore, yes. That could make it too central, though.

Doesn't have to be something that comes up all the time. Could come up just one time. Part of the main quest may be (Acquire scrap materials for Ranger Center) and one of the ways to accomplish this is find an old mining town and strike a deal with the current inhabitants. Or kill them all and move in new ones. Then there is a side quest if you want to make full use of the cyborg tech skill. (Acquire cyborg manufacturing for RC) You might then find books at a library and start training recruits from books, and/or recruit a doctor NPC, while also discovering an old warehouse/repair center filled with second hand cyborg tech and replacement parts.