"Old School RPG" thanks, but no thanks.

[Inca]

I know I am going to start a shit storm between the "Old school RPG crowd" and the rest of us, but I think there has to be an explicit opinion voiced about a few things that the "Old school RPG" is gonna bring which I really don't want to see.

In my opinion the life in the wasteland is a battle for survival (among other things), and I of course want the deep story, the waste world and unique NPCs, but I do not want to sweep under the rug the basic dread of trying to hang on in the environment which is predisposed to wipe you out of existence.

I am expressing my own opinion, and I do not want to create an impression that I speak for everyone, but I started to see a trend where a few forum members imply that due to their experience with Pen and Paper RPGs and their countless hours with WL1, they know better how the WL2 has to work. They do not want to bother with combat beyond a simple dice roll at the encounter. They do not want to deal with water and food shortage, they do not want to care about the weight of items, they do not need tactics, animations, graphics, character creation etc. because 30 years ago all of this did not exist.

Now a game like that would be rather disappointing experience for me (and I hope some other forum members would care to ask for some changes to Pen and Paper paradigm as well)

I want a tactical combat.
I want to deal with water and food shortages.
I want to deal with diseases.
I want to deal with inventory weight.
I want mounts and vehicles
I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

In short I do not see why difficulties of survival have to be eliminated from the ravaged world. Why simple common sense realities are an impediment to the story or Game play-they are the game play and the story.

If you have to drop equipment because you cannot carry it-so be it. If you are dying from thirst and you have to trade your Gatling gun for a liter of water-tough-suck it up. If a member of your crew got shot-kill him or get him to the hospital, do not pretend that it will get better as time goes on.
There is no power armor or laser canon-the world is devastated-who has the resources to develop this technology, and why would you, when there are so many other technological challenges around?

I guess what I am asking for is a comment from fellow gamers-do you want some fairy-make-belief-RPG or a hardcore-kick you-in-the-nuts man's game?

[SniperHF]

I
I guess what I am asking for is a comment from fellow gamers-do you want some fairy-make-belief-RPG or a hardcore-kick you-in-the-nuts man's game?

You can have that without all of the things you just listed. Detailed and difficult combat encounters are the first and most obvious example. The more of this stuff you add the less of a CRPG it is and the more of a management game it is.

I'm also not seeing anyone call for combat based 100% on dice rolls.

[Woolfe]

I want a tactical combat.

Yep, no argument

I want to deal with water and food shortages.

Nah Argument below

I want to deal with diseases.

Yep, and poison etc

I want to deal with inventory weight.

Yep

I want mounts and vehicles

Maybe argument below

I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

Not sure what you mean here? I assume you mean you don't want random stats?

As to Food and water. Its an annoying mechanic, that rapidly becomes less important as you progress and become "wealthy"

Vehicles/Mounts, maybe, but I personally want them to be rare, as they seriously change the dynamic of the world.

In short I do not see why difficulties of survival have to be eliminated from the ravaged world. Why simple common sense realities are an impediment to the story or Game play-they are the game play and the story.

Storywise - Having to manage your food an water is fine if you are in a desert all the time, but the suggestion is this isn't always a desert. Why would I need to manage my water if I have a river that I am walking next too, or if it rains regularly. Maybe I need to manage whether it is radiated or may make me sick. But thats slightly different.
Gameplay - its just an annoying mechanic, having to fiddle around with collecting food and water. I'd rather have it automatically collected (perhaps through a high enough "survivial" skill" and only become an issue in particularly harsh conditions.

Weight is a great addition, as is bulk.

Getting someone to the hospital? Why if I have a medic or Doctor with me. Chances are they are going to be just as good as a twobit doc in a town. And anyway, this existed in the original.

Power armour and Laser Cannons. They existed in specific places, and in specific situations. They either were developed before the bomb and "kept" by nutters, or they were built by the robotic big bad, which didn't have to concern itself with food etc, only power, which it had.

I guess what I am asking for is a comment from fellow gamers-do you want some fairy-make-belief-RPG or a hardcore-kick you-in-the-nuts man's game?

What a silly comment. I want a modern day adaption based on the gameplay and story of the original Wasteland, as defined and modified by InXile, who are lead by Brian Fargo and similar minded folk.

[Inca]

The more of this stuff you add the less of a CRPG it is and the more of a management game it is.

I do not know what a "management game" is but even dumbest platformers have some sort of resource mangement. I am saying we need to manage resource that matter. Every RPG has resources: potions, scrolls etc. However in Post Apocaliptic games this mechanism either magically skipped, or you just magically "find" stuff in the loot. All te resources have been found already and people either need to make them, trade them, or fight for them, but the key point is that water and food and ammo have to be scarce and they have to be essential not optional.

[krellen]

I hope you don't mind if I take these point-by-point.

I want a tactical combat.

That depends on your definition of tactical. There's tactical, and then there's Tactical. I think I've got you pretty well pegged as asking for Tactical here? Like, Jagged Alliance Tactical, not like Fallout tactical, yes?

I really, really don't want a single combat lasting for nearly an hour. Clearing out Ugly's hideout JA style would take literally HOURS, and I just don't have that kind of time (or patience) for games any more.

I want to deal with water and food shortages.

The only real problem I have with this is not based on "it's not in the original", but rather on "this didn't seem to be a problem in the original". See, Wasteland didn't just sweep aside issues of food and water as too complicated or not fun - you did require a canteen to safely traverse the deep desert, after all - but rather it addressed the issues by having a setting wherein food and water were not scarce. A river cut straight through the middle of the map, with a bay at the bottom. The yellow "desert" areas were divided by a wide swath of green "pasture" areas. One of the earliest locations was a farm with giant mutant vegetables. It just doesn't seem like the Wasteland world is really hurting for basic survival that much.

I want to deal with diseases.

Cool. Me too. Wasteland Herpes, Sewer Rot, Radiation Poisoning - it's all good.

I want to deal with inventory weight.

A central divide on this might be that I just don't draw a line between "inventory weight" and "limited inventory". They're both accomplishing the same basic mechanical needs - making you prioritize what you do and don't want to carry - one's just simpler while the other is more "realistic" (I use quotes because in-game weights are almost never actually realistic.)

If you mean "inventory weight" as a limited inventory that means you can't carry everything? Sure, I'm on board with that.
If you mean "inventory weight" as in literally weighed inventory, like New Vegas hardcore mode? I'm just not sure the added complexity is a worthwhile trade.

I want mounts and vehicles

Cool. Me too. Wasteland referenced cattle, had giant animals at the Ag Centre (can I ride a giant armoured bunny please?), and several motorised vehicles. I whole-heartedly support mounts and vehicles in the sequel; they fit perfectly and help fill out the setting.

I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

I want to roll my character's stats, then use those stats to create their skill builds. The rolling is just a intrinsic part of the "old school" experience to me - Wasteland, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic; they all let me roll, and I enjoy doing it.

I definitely don't think every aspect of character creation should be random, though. Just the attributes. I really, really, really want Wasteland 2 to have the same basic character system Wasteland 1 did - for two reasons. First, I like it, I think it's a good, elegant system that had something for everyone (it combines random rolling and point buy quite nicely). Second, I really really hate when a so-called "sequel" changes the basic underlying game system. I don't think it's rightly called a sequel if it does that. (Like, going from D&D 2nd to D&D 3rd isn't something I count as "changing" the underlying system - they're both still D&D, you roll d20s, have the same stats and determine those stats in (more or less) the same way. But going from MSPE to SPECIAL would be a huge change that I would count.)

I guess what I am asking for is a comment from fellow gamers-do you want some fairy-make-belief-RPG or a hardcore-kick you-in-the-nuts man's game?

I definitely don't want to get kicked in the nuts. Getting kicked in the nuts fucking hurts, man. Why do you want to get kicked in the nuts? Most masochists even think that's too far.

[SniperHF]

The more of this stuff you add the less of a CRPG it is and the more of a management game it is.

I do not know what a "management game" is but even dumbest platformers have some sort of resource mangement. I am saying we need to manage resource that matter. Every RPG has resources: potions, scrolls etc. However in Post Apocaliptic games this mechanism either magically skipped, or you just magically "find" stuff in the loot. All te resources have been found already and people either need to make them, trade them, or fight for them, but the key point is that water and food and ammo have to be scarce and they have to be essential not optional.

I'm not saying there should be NO resource management. You seem obsessed with realism to be honest as you keep bringing up "magic". I've played RPGs with these elements and RPGs without them and never once have I found them to add anything but annoyance. That may go to implementation more than a problem with the idea itself but I'd rather err on the side of caution. Suspend disbelief a bit.

I'm not sure why you believe resource management has been skipped in Post Apocalyptic games. Done poorly perhaps. But it's been there.

[paultakeda]

The title of this thread sounds like what a publisher would tell Fargo on one of his pitches.

What's odd is that his idea of old school RPG seems to be making an 8-bit DOS game, which is not what old school RPG means. Wasteland combat was not a simple dice roll and included movement a party split tactics. Wasteland dealt with water using a water canteen and as krellen pointed out there is no food shortage (Wasteland is not set in a time when survival was difficult, especially for a trained ranger team). Animations, graphics and character creation are all being updated not because they did not exist 30 years ago (they did) but because we can do a lot more to enhance these aspects and still have an old school RPG.

As for all the stuff he wants that he thinks is not "old school RPG", all of that can be incorporated but they should be incorporated in such a way as to use and enhance/expand upon the core mechanic of an old school RPG; in this case, the Wasteland MSPE skill-based system.

The thing is what I'm seeing is not that people don't want an old school RPG but rather they want to shove a lot of game genres into this one game. Let's keep our eye on the ball, here. Wasteland IS an old school RPG, but that does not mean what Inca is describing.

[SniperHF]

The title of this thread sounds like what a publisher would tell Fargo on one of his pitches.

What's odd is that his idea of old school RPG seems to be making an 8-bit DOS game, which is not what old school RPG means. Wasteland combat was not a simple dice roll and included movement a party split tactics. Wasteland dealt with water using a water canteen and as krellen pointed out there is no food shortage (Wasteland is not set in a time when survival was difficult, especially for a trained ranger team). Animations, graphics and character creation are all being updated not because they did not exist 30 years ago (they did) but because we can do a lot more to enhance these aspects and still have an old school RPG.

As for all the stuff he wants that he thinks is not "old school RPG", all of that can be incorporated but they should be incorporated in such a way as to use and enhance/expand upon the core mechanic of an old school RPG; in this case, the Wasteland MSPE skill-based system.

The thing is what I'm seeing is not that people don't want an old school RPG but rather they want to shove a lot of game genres into this one game. Let's keep our eye on the ball, here. Wasteland IS an old school RPG, but that does not mean what Inca is describing.

Well part of the problem is RPG is such a derivative Genre that if you ask 10 people what an RPG is you'll probably get at least 5 answers. Inca seems to want one aspect of RPGs expanded upon 10 fold in W2. It's just an aspect I happen to enjoy the least in RPGs and an aspect that has not been focused on for good reason. It's extremely repetitive.

Once you have over come the challenge of starvation once, you've basically figured out the system and can move on. I don't see the need to have a hunger dynamic that is constantly forced upon the player. Something like the Canteen is a perfect example of how to include this element in the way I described without adding layers and layers of management. Once you figured it out it's no longer intrusive on the core gameplay.

[BrokenToaster]

The title of this thread sounds like what a publisher would tell Fargo on one of his pitches.

I was going to say that the subject and bits of this post seemed a bit on the trollish/inflammatory side. With that said, all of the items listed have been elements of "olds school" cRPGs from even before Wasteland existed.

I've seen a couple of people on this board state they didn't want to "roll" their character, but wanted to "create" them instead, but I'm not really sure what that means in gaming terms and would be interested in some explanations or examples.

As for the food and water issue, I think the prior arguments for why it can be tedious/arbitrary/inappropriate pretty much cover the issue. From a design/gameplay perspective it just becomes a metronome.

[paultakeda]

Once you have over come the challenge of starvation once, you've basically figured out the system and can move on. I don't see the need to have a hunger dynamic that is constantly forced upon the player. Something like the Canteen is a perfect example of how to include this element in the way I described without adding layers and layers of management. Once you figured it out it's no longer intrusive on the core gameplay.

Exactly. It just turns into a resource management minigame that intrudes upon the main game. The canteen was perfect: non-intrusive yet forced you to lost one inventory slot in order to prevent heat damage. Perhaps in WL2 a survivalist skill might mean you take less damage and when high enough you don't have to carry a canteen, therefore freeing up inventory. Same thing for items like medkits and doctor's bags; they can be used as part of the skill system (as per this thread I started).

I've seen a couple of people on this board state they didn't want to "roll" their character, but wanted to "create" them instead, but I'm not really sure what that means in gaming terms and would be interested in some explanations or examples.

Yeah, not sure either. To me rolling introduced an element of chance to character creation that I enjoyed. Can it be improved? Certainly. Perhaps it rolls in such a way that there is a limited point pool from which it can randomize the attributes, then you have a small point pool to enhance any attributes you want to enhance. That would combine the element of chance with some customization.

I want a random roll because I will very likely lose rangers along the way. By the tenth ranger, having to assign all the attribute points one at a time is gonna get boring. I like the element of chance here ("Bring on the next recruit! Oh... huh, you're kinda short and skinny... well, gear up! (ST 6)"). So even if the character creator allows you to distribute all the points I still want a button for "Quick Roll".

[BubbaBrown]

I want a tactical combat.

Yes, indeed.

I want to deal with water and food shortages.

To a certain extent. These are Rangers and the world isn't a complete nuclear wasteland... Just all the key bits that most people define civilization by are no longer around. But, there should be rough spots where your preparations are put to the test. If you make sure to keep some supplies handy for when ever your best survival skills falter, then it should be straight forward to deal with. I just don't want to the need to survive to eclipse everything else in the game.

I want to deal with diseases.

Nothing like a good case o' da' Crotch Rot to motivate squad members.

I want to deal with inventory weight.

I'd be even tempted to take it further and deal with volume, too. Something similar to Silent Storm or STALKER. It would work well with having vehicles, setting up caches, and planning out missions.

I want mounts and vehicles

Yes, please. You can't really be a bunch of badasses of the wastes if you are walking all the time. You need at least one good vehicle to cruise in.

I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

I used to be all about rollings during my strictly DnD days, but after playing a bunch of other game systems... I really do appreciate a well designed point build. I suffer Stastically Average Roll Syndrome and rolling for stats never works out the best for me. Nothing like being the one with average stats, while everyone gets to rock out with lucky rolls. A good point buy can really push you to make some careful decisions when making a group of characters.


I must point out there's a bit of confusion between Old School RPG and what can be attributed to technical limitations that have garnered too much love. The original Wasteland happened during a time of vast technical limitations (they had the paragraph book... because they couldn't fit all the text they wanted in the game). I'm all for overcoming previous technical limitations to provide a better experience. Trouble is that many people have gotten a bit too attached to technical limitations and attributed these limitations as being the aesthetic of Wasteland. Hence, many seek to reintroduce those limitations and technical workarounds back into Wasteland 2 without really taking a good look at them and asking if they really add that much to the experience.

[paultakeda]

Trouble is that many people have gotten a bit too attached to technical limitations and attributed these limitations as being the aesthetic of Wasteland. Hence, many seek to reintroduce those limitations and technical workarounds back into Wasteland 2 without really taking a good look at them and asking if they really add that much to the experience.

I'm curious: what do you feel is anachronistic that people want to retain?

Off the top of my head there was one regarding quest maps and compasses. A compass marker pointing to a person/location I do not know about is stupid, but an auto map and being able to mark your destination is a good thing. If I know where Needles is, I think all of us would like to have that 1) on the map and 2) able to mark it and an arrow points to the mark on your map as you travel. Now if you want to make it so at least one ranger needs to carry an actual compass for this directional to show up, fine. I'd rather think they know how to use the sun and stars.

[Bloodshard]

One thing we have to come to grips with is that we ultimately don't get to decide what goes into Wasteland 2. It is very much like minecraft we paid for it already, now we wait to see what comes out. There will be people who love it, those who hate it, and those who just wanted something new. I have not played Wasteland, but I have played Fargo's other games and loved them dearly. I also loved Neverwinter Nights. So right now I think they can do no wrong. I just want a new RPG, ams I want it to be as good as it can possibly be.

We are a Forum not the designers.

Fargo knows what he wants, and that's good enough for me. But here is what we can do, look over every game that Fargo and obsidian has made and compile the best bits. If we could all agree on some core aspects from those games and encourage the Wasteland 2 team to use what they have already done. Not only are we not trying to reinvent the wheel, but we are giving the developers some reference to what we will like.

[BrokenToaster]

Yeah, not sure either. To me rolling introduced an element of chance to character creation that I enjoyed. Can it be improved? Certainly. Perhaps it rolls in such a way that there is a limited point pool from which it can randomize the attributes, then you have a small point pool to enhance any attributes you want to enhance. That would combine the element of chance with some customization.

I want a random roll because I will very likely lose rangers along the way. By the tenth ranger, having to assign all the attribute points one at a time is gonna get boring. I like the element of chance here ("Bring on the next recruit! Oh... huh, you're kinda short and skinny... well, gear up! (ST 6)"). So even if the character creator allows you to distribute all the points I still want a button for "Quick Roll".

There were so many variations and improvements made to roll systems before they, and cRPGS in general, fell out of favor it's hard to ever really know what the real grievances with the system are. I always appreciated systems that had limited stat swapping in the roll the screen. That, along with a limited number of freely assignable attribute points just feels like a really reliable way to create random stat sheets, but without being utterly chained to the "Roll Again" button. I fully support the quick roll idea.

I think a lot of people are turned off by roll systems because they've become addicted to templates that provide optimized characters. Just an opinion.

[paultakeda]

I think a lot of people are turned off by roll systems because they've become addicted to templates that provide optimized characters. Just an opinion.

I'm of the opinion that templates and point buy allows people to min/max, making it much easier to game a system. "I'm rolling a wizard, so who cares about strength or wisdom."

The other thing is that WL's MSPE makes it almost inconsequential. Leveling raised attributes, so you could slowly focus your character as he/she trained, which to me is far more realistic than having attributes more or less set from the beginning.

Frankly, there is a lot of potential left in MSPE and I'm really excited Stackpole and St. Andre are on board. This is why I think the title of the thread is rather insulting as the OP's concerns are actually not about "old school RPGs" at all yet I get the feeling some eyebrows are being raised at inXile.

[ffordesoon]

I want a game that will hold up twenty years from now as well as Wasteland holds up today, and that stays true to the weird spirit of the franchise. As long as that's accomplished, everything else is gravy.

I do quite like survival mechanics, though. For the record.

[paultakeda]

I do quite like survival mechanics, though. For the record.

I like them when they fit. There's a thread on survival mechanics and one on gritty realism you should check out. Both get pretty into survival mechanics.

[BrokenToaster]

I'm of the opinion that templates and point buy allows people to min/max, making it much easier to game a system. "I'm rolling a wizard, so who cares about strength or wisdom."

The other thing is that WL's MSPE makes it almost inconsequential. Leveling raised attributes, so you could slowly focus your character as he/she trained, which to me is far more realistic than having attributes more or less set from the beginning.

Frankly, there is a lot of potential left in MSPE and I'm really excited Stackpole and St. Andre are on board. This is why I think the title of the thread is rather insulting as the OP's concerns are actually not about "old school RPGs" at all yet I get the feeling some eyebrows are being raised at inXile.

Without a doubt. MPSE's ability to free the player from being stuck rolling classes just has so much potential and I think it offers significantly more freedom and input into character creation than people are used to. That's why the number of threads and posts dedicated to being concerned with immersion/character development just seem very strange to me. I realize it's one of the more obscure games/systems, but if it's simply unfamiliarity driving the criticism it would be nice to have people just man up and say, "Hey, I don't know what this is all about, could someone explain it?"

[BubbaBrown]

I'm curious: what do you feel is anachronistic that people want to retain?

The limited save system. That really is a a true technical limitation. A lot of people seem attached to the variant of MSPE system in Wasteland as it is. I wager there could be improvements made to it that even original developers would appreciate. Or there may be a better system out there that aligns with the goals of even the first Wasteland better. A number of people had something against using 3D and wanted strict sprite usage. Sprites where very expensive for development then and even now. There weren't many other big ones, but many felt fairly passionate about these topics.

I'm of the opinion that templates and point buy allows people to min/max, making it much easier to game a system. "I'm rolling a wizard, so who cares about strength or wisdom."

That is because of an imbalance of value in what you can buy with points. If everything is tied to a particular stat for a class, then it'll be optimized. But if you distribute the need and value among all that can be bought, it'll be a bit hard to min/max. Even if someone does optimize, they'll end up with a specialist rather than an all-powerful one.

[krellen]

The limited save system. That really is a a true technical limitation.

Even if it is, just because an idea sprung from trying to overcome a technical limitation does not mean the idea is bad. I honestly find the space scenes in the original Star Wars trilogy to be a lot more appealing - they have more "charm", if you would - than those in the Special Edition (not in small part due to knowing that one of the ships in one of the scenes was a tennis shoe with lights glued on it, and my still-outstanding quest to correctly identify which one.)