Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

[Inca]

You guys touched on a lot of good points here, I liked the Aranum character creation (also along the same line Tropico series) as well as questioneer like in JA 2 and Mount and Blade, also enjoyed twilight 2000 approach.
My be game could start with writing your resume, in standard resume format, like name, age, education, career, hobies and special skills. And afterword include one of those Myers-Briggs like tests, Attach your photo to the file and there you go new Ranger recruit is born.
One thing I liked about Tropico character traits is that for every positive effect there was equally negative effect in other areas.

Maybe it all could be age dependent, let's say that evry profession takes 5 years to be excellent, 4 years to be good, 3 years to be profficient, 2 years to be passable, and 1 year to be exposed. Each profession gives you 2 skills and one charcter trait.

So let's say you are 30 years old
-18 years for school and kindergarden
12 years left-you can choose to go to colledge, which will open some professions for you, but you will loose 4 years which you could spend on another profession.
without colledge you can have 2 professions fully developed with 4 skills and 2 charcter traits
with colledge you can have maybe one fully developed profession that required a degree and be profficient in another, cut you only have 2 skills and one charcter trait
your hobbies may take 10 years to be excellent and you can start having hobbies from age of say 12, and they give you 3 skills and 2 charcter traits

Something like that, also for example if you keep staying in the profession, you can train others to the degree of extra spent years, for example if you persued profession for 6 years, you could train other NPCs to be (level 1 exposed).

This way if one member of your party is in the military for 10 years and he obtained 2 skills (marksmanship and explosives) he can train the rest of the party to level five in military skills (over time of course)

By writing this "resume" you create all the necessary information, but there could be "free form fields" like you could enetr names of the companies you worked for, cities you lived in, some details of your child hood

In fact in your resume you could indicate that you were in prison with all the skills you could pick up in prison.

You could request R&R days off for your religious holidays
You could specify your "mesurements" for the uniform (height, weight, bra size )
Political Party affiliation

[BubbaBrown]

I am reminded of Strategic Simulations's Star Command: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Command_(video_game)

You actually drafted characters at the young age of 13 or 14 (I forget) and put them through 8 years of Star Command training. You picked which courses they'd attempt to take. Sometimes they got a rank in the course (sometimes two), got dumped into another class, or got wasteful desk duty. It was kind of fun playing the game chance to get your characters through school in some fashion. Many didn't make my selection process because they putzed around in Desk Duty too much.

[Woolfe]

it was about generic vs unique characters

This is the Crux of the issue.

Mort2 believes that a bunch of stats can't have any unique character. And in a way he may be correct. If there were no random element (even if there were) you could potentially create 2 characters that are exactly the same in every way.

I can even see how Mort2's idea would work.
You just have the 4 characters (Original characters used as an example below)
Hell Razor
Angela Deth
Thrasher
Snake Vargas
And they would be fully scripted, and interactive. You run the "party" and choose the outside party and maybe the internal party communication based on scripted elements of those 4 characters. You get the party banter, you get individual backstories etc etc etc.

Am I on the right track Mort2?

Now the part I don't understand, is how this is any different from having a comprehensive character creation with storylines that spin off based on Stats, Abilities, Traits, and backgrounds.

The only difference I can see is that one is written specifically, and therefore no one could ever get exactly the same story. Fair enough, although I don't think it is that big an issue, as it relates only to your 4 characters.

Is there anything else that this affects Mort2? Or am I completely on the wrong track?

Now for me, I happen to like the way a bunch of stats of my own creation works. As opposed to a bunch of stats and scripted events created by the developers works. Mostly because I see more character in my creations.
Now don't get me wrong, the Dev's can do an awesome job at creating characters and breathing life into them, and I will be looking forword to that with the NPC's that join the party. But they aren't my players. My players I want to be my players. This is why in the original, I always took my own players, and not the pre-created team above.

[paultakeda]

it was about generic vs unique characters

This is the Crux of the issue.

Mort2 believes that a bunch of stats can't have any unique character. And in a way he may be correct. If there were no random element (even if there were) you could potentially create 2 characters that are exactly the same in every way.

Nail. Head.

Mort2 thinks you can't create unique characters with immersive personalities using stats. I think this is something that should be proved wrong with a deep character creation system that leads to unique encounters and interactions within the game. I also think that these Companions in modern RPGs give the facsimile of depth when really, a lot of it is one dimensional fan service.

Hence the usefulness of this thread.

[Mort2]

Am I on the right track Mort2?

Yes, this is just the standard RPG formula, in which you control a group of NPCs, minus the story focus on the main character.

Am I on the right track Mort2?
...
The only difference I can see is that one is written specifically, and therefore no one could ever get exactly the same story. Fair enough, although I don't think it is that big an issue, as it relates only to your 4 characters.

Yes, only I hope that we will have more than just 4 characters to choose from, for our party and when we get modding, we are defiantly going to get more than 4 options.

Now the part I don't understand, is how this is any different from having a comprehensive character creation with storylines that spin off based on Stats, Abilities, Traits, and backgrounds.

I prefer this option because no matter how much you go about making a long list of (perks, traits, metrics like gender, ethnicity, nationality, birth place, etc.) that you can pick from, this will be always a sub par system, that provide you with generic experience.

So that now every "BLACK" "USA" "MALE" will say XYZ... just think about how much work does it takes to create a system that will work for everyone and what worse you will get the modern game treatment, short one liner "humor" to fit everything.

On the other hand companions, allow the writers to write character specific, unique dialogues for various situation, group composition and add quest to your characters, so you can be attached to your squad members. It's one thing to have that "black" "usa" "male" who said XXXX die, it's another to loose Minsc, Morte, HK47 or execute myron because he annoys you.

The more slots for NPC we have (controllable and non controable) the better.

It also limits the character types you can have, as everyone have to fit into that list.
..
Maybe and maybe one day, such phrasing engines would write unique and memorable characters for us, from the looks of it bioware might already have something like this working, but In the meantime I would really prefer if the guys who made all those great old school RPGs, that were about quality text and had all those wonderful memorable characters, do what they do best.

[Woolfe]

I also think that these Companions in modern RPGs give the facsimile of depth when really, a lot of it is one dimensional fan service.

Modern I agree.

But in all fairness to Mort2, he has been referencing games like Baldur's Gate and Planescape etc.

These games did have some pretty good character depth etc.

And if anyone wants an example of Fan service. Play Mass Effect 1, then play Mass Effect 2. The difference in the characters and backstories etc is telling. It went from a FPS with RPG elements, and a bunch of characters who whilst not necesarily deep, were certainly interesting (I really liked Wrex), to a bunch of fan service, and excuses for you character to shag someone.

[Mort2]

Mort2 thinks you can't create unique characters with immersive personalities using stats. I think this is something that should be proved wrong with a deep character creation system that leads to unique encounters and interactions within the game. I also think that these Companions in modern RPGs give the facsimile of depth when really, a lot of it is one dimensional fan service..

I can think that there are flying pink elephants, who rule the world, so what?. What Important that, I can show you every good old school RPG using "my" formula, at the same time you think that you can write unique and memorable characters with "intelligent phrasing engine", can you show me one good or at least decent RPG that done this right?

[Woolfe]

Now the part I don't understand, is how this is any different from having a comprehensive character creation with storylines that spin off based on Stats, Abilities, Traits, and backgrounds.

I prefer this option because no matter how much you go about making a long list of (perks, traits, metrics like gender, ethnicity, nationality, birth place, etc.) that you can pick from, this will be always a sub par system, that provide you with generic experience.

Fair enough. I happen to disagree, and I think if any team can prove it can work, it will be this one.

So that now every "BLACK" "USA" "MALE" will say XYZ... just think about how much work does it takes to create a system that will work for everyone and what worse you will get the modern game treatment, short one liner "humor" to fit everything.

Again I disagree, you are picking on the wrong elements. It would be better to say Every Medic with Energy weapons skill, male, and the personality trait of Angry will say ....

On the other hand companions, allow the writers to write character specific, unique dialogues for various situation, group composition and add quest to your characters, so you can be attached to your squad members. It's one thing to have that "black" "usa" "male" who said XXXX die, it's another to loose Minsc, Morte, HK47 or execute myron because he annoys you.

You will still have those elements. But now you will have them with 4 different characters. Maybe 1 will want to execute myron, but maybe another will think he is hilarious.

The more slots for NPC we have (controllable and non controable) the better.

But this is exactly what the mainstream market has done. Why can't you at least accept that this is an attempt to prove that the other is still a viable alternative.

It also limits the character types you can have, as everyone have to fit into that list.
..
Maybe and maybe one day, such phrasing engines would write unique and memorable characters for us, from the looks of it bioware might already have something like this working, but In the meantime I would really prefer if the guys who made all those great old school RPGs, that were about quality text and had all those wonderful memorable characters, do what they do best.

Having seen the quality of Bioware's writing degrade, I wouldn't rely on them to do anything well anymore.

[Mort2]

I dont understand why keep saying mainstream, by which I assume you mean ME3 , there is nothing of that "mainstream" here, but the same system used in FO, BG2, PST etc etc, all the good old RPGs, only adapted to party base and allows you to enjoy both worlds. The funny thing that you propose the exact same thing, only with a different implementation

Again I disagree, you are picking on the wrong elements. It would be better to say Every Medic with Energy weapons skill, male, and the personality trait of Angry will say ....

No, all you do is generalize every male medic with Energy weapons and X personality, while I want to personalize it. What you suggest that instead of the writers writing uniqe and memorable characters, that their dialogue will change and progress, like with all those we love and remember from the good old RPGs that they will write a list of catch phrases for every stat that would be randomly shown...

let me role play the character I create, the way I want and let my "companions" be unique...

[Lucius]

I really really like Woolfe's and paultakeda's ideas in this thread. Honestly when you think about it making dialogue options and quests link to personality traits and choose-able background statements it gives the player best of both worlds but with far more options of uniqueness and replayability then set personalities would bring. They would have to make certain there is a large variety of traits and backgrounds so we can have numerous unique characters though.

I kind of can see where Mort2 is coming from if dialogue is based on skills. But if dialogue is solely based on the pick lists from character creation, if you are careful you can make sure you have no PC's with overlapping traits, thus no overlapping dialogue and personalities. Of course, cutting skills out then starts to limit dialogue choices and I think the more the better, even if they overlap at times. I'd also like to think an angry character would say something different than an optimistic character even they are both discussing demolitions. They would have the same point but their personality would show through and it would be worded different. The more factors taken into consideration when the game assigns dialogue lines to a character, the deeper and more diverse interactions can be.

Lastly, I'd add one last step to the character creation process that Woolfe outlined 2 pages back. I'd add an optional section allowing the player to write in a cohesive background to tie all of these personality traits and backgrounds together. I'd like to see NPC's have this same section, but of course would be written and filled in by the game's writers.

Honestly, what I'm imagining in my head regarding this dialogue and character creation system would be revolutionary. I've never seen anything like the system outlined in this thread in any game I've played. I hope the developers give these ideas some serious thought because a system like this, if it works, could really raise the bar for RPGs.

[Prometheus]

Since there was no discussion from my earlier post, I'm just going to re-quote myself with some emphasis:

First, thanks to alexlovesinxile for starting this discussion.

I'd also like to back the previous comment from Woolfe.

I'm strongly in favor of some system that allows those of us who want to, to play the game with a party that has personality or something else going for them.

Earlier paultakeda mentioned that a Q&A system could be used to pick the history or 'persona' of party members, and someone else mentioned Jagged Alliance 2 here.

I just wanted to voice my backing of a JA2-style system: you could make your own mercenary from scratch with a personality by taking a quiz (and you'd not be burdened by any backstory with long lost family or enemies that you didn't know about or care about).

I donno if this is the right thread for this or not, but maybe instead of auto-generating stories for player-created party members, maybe there could be recruitable (and tweakable) party members from the start instead.

I made another thread in a different forum before I saw this thread, and I posted the following in it:

[...] Another possibility is to have "both" blank-slate characters where you pick your own character portrait (ala Fallout Tactics), or pre-made tweakable characters that are supplied by the developers. (e.g., Jack the Cowboy can have his rifle skill tweaked between 33% and 80% at start)

If there's serious demand for this, and if the developers can't commit to the extra writing, maybe they can crowd-source some of the work to the community to come up with the most interesting and compelling NPC recruits?

Anyways, I think that following along some of the other discussions -- since there's a diverse group of backers and community members (and future purchasers) -- I think the ideal situation should allow people to play Wasteland as they want it (e.g., give someone an achievement for just using auto-saves rather than saving whenever they want to).

If someone wants to play blank-slate no-personality party members, they can. And if someone else (like say, most of us in this thread) want to play party members with a personality or backstory etc.. -- we can do that too.

In other words: What about a blank-slate system for those of us who want it -- for the character we want to use it on -- and a persona/background system for those of us who want it -- on the character we want to use it on?

[paultakeda]

In other words: What about a blank-slate system for those of us who want it -- for the character we want to use it on -- and a persona/background system for those of us who want it -- on the character we want to use it on?

I agreed to that before your post.

I see nothing wrong with filling out PC history/personality with something more tangible for those who want the option.

You have three paths: 1) fill out history, 2) click auto and let the game pre-gen history (like how it rolls attributes) or 3) leave blank, no traits/perks, all history is "unknown", but you will still need to specify or auto-generate any demographics available (e.g. gender, ethnicity, blood type, whatever might be there).

[Woolfe]

I dont understand why keep saying mainstream, by which I assume you mean ME3 , there is nothing of that "mainstream" here, but the same system used in FO, BG2, PST etc etc, all the good old RPGs, only adapted to party base and allows you to enjoy both worlds. The funny thing that you propose the exact same thing, only with a different implementation

Again I disagree, you are picking on the wrong elements. It would be better to say Every Medic with Energy weapons skill, male, and the personality trait of Angry will say ....

No, all you do is generalize every male medic with Energy weapons and X personality, while I want to personalize it. What you suggest that instead of the writers writing uniqe and memorable characters, that their dialogue will change and progress, like with all those we love and remember from the good old RPGs that they will write a list of catch phrases for every stat that would be randomly shown...

let me role play the character I create, the way I want and let my "companions" be unique...

Okay, I am not going to use standard definitions, because we have different definitions and it breaks down into an argument about that.

I want the characters I create to be generalised, but I want the characters that I meet out in the world and ask to join your party to be Unique.

Dialogue streams have 2 sides. If the devs fully control one side (the character asked to join the party) then they can build dialogue appropriate to the responces. This allows the responces to be tailored however and whatever the personality of the player created character. The reality is standard dialogue trees do this already in the situations where you have a choice of different dialogues. This simply has more potential variations.

The difference here is minor in my opinion.

[Prometheus]

In other words: What about a blank-slate system for those of us who want it -- for the character we want to use it on -- and a persona/background system for those of us who want it -- on the character we want to use it on?

I agreed to that before your post.

Sorry about that, I guess I missed it :p

[Mort2]

@Woolfe, Ill go at it last time. To avoid confusion Ill use two terms: Rangers, Followers and everyone else. when:
1. Rangers - The "Core" of the player party, fully controlled by the player.
2. Followers - followers, the good old NPC, with their quirks

My suggestions is very simple and only touch on how you choose your Rangers, assuming that you have 4 slots for rangers, I want to allow you to fill those with either:
1. Stat sheet, allowing you to create a ranger party just like you did in Wasteland.
2. Pick up a "premade" Ranger, however its not really a "premade", since you can never make him using the first option, you could interact with him, have party banter and/or quest. Basiclly he will act just like a followers only under your full control. This will allow you a much more personalized party, you be actually loosing something you cant with another Ranger with the same stats.

This will allow you to pick either options 1 Waasteland fans happy or option 2 Fallout fans happier (or a mix I am happy ) this should work from the start, not some half ass unbalanced choice, where you can make one Ranger and later pick some recruits. Not let me pick 4 of whatever mix I want from the start.

[paultakeda]

@Woolfe, Ill go at it last time. To avoid confusion Ill use two terms: Rangers, Followers and everyone else. when:
1. Rangers - The "Core" of the player party, fully controlled by the player.
2. Followers - followers, the good old NPC, with their quirks

My suggestions is very simple and only touch on how you choose your Rangers, assuming that you have 4 slots for rangers, I want to allow you to fill those with either:
1. Stat sheet, allowing you to create a ranger party just like you did in Wasteland.
2. Pick up a "premade" Ranger, however its not really a "premade", since you can never make him using the first option, you could interact with him, have party banter and/or quest. Basiclly he will act just like a followers only under your full control. This will allow you a much more personalized party, you be actually loosing something you cant with another Ranger with the same stats.

This will allow you to pick either options 1 Waasteland fans happy or option 2 Fallout fans happier (or a mix I am happy ) this should work from the start, not some half ass unbalanced choice, where you can make one Ranger and later pick some recruits. Not let me pick 4 of whatever mix I want from the start.

Hahaha. You just described how the party system works in Wasteland. The only difference is this bit about interaction with the party/quest, which is exactly what this thread is discussing to improve party creation in Wasteland 2.

[Mort2]

Here, I explained that indeed this is similar(this was the whole point, I tried something that works for everyone) and why its different, why your way doest work(see also post above that)

The funny thing that you propose the exact same thing, only with a different implementation

Again I disagree, you are picking on the wrong elements. It would be better to say Every Medic with Energy weapons skill, male, and the personality trait of Angry will say ....

No, all you do is generalize every male medic with Energy weapons and X personality, while I want to personalize it. What you suggest that instead of the writers writing uniqe and memorable characters, that their dialogue will change and progress, like with all those we love and remember from the good old RPGs that they will write a list of catch phrases for every stat that would be randomly shown...

let me role play the character I create, the way I want and let my "companions" be unique...

As for that difference, this small difference is what its all about.

[paultakeda]

As for that difference, this small difference is what its all about.

And that's the point of this thread: how to make a character unique. We already have the recruitable NPCs but we're seeing if we can make a player created character unique as well with interactive ties to the game world (i.e. not just stats).

[Mort2]

I already answered you,let the devs write unique and memorable characters and explained why what you suggest that never worked in JA2, would be crap and make new bioware writing seem as pinnacles of RPG:

viewtopic.php?p=23923#p23923
viewtopic.php?p=24102#p24102
viewtopic.php?p=24218#p24218

DO IT LIKE IN THE GOOD OLD RPGs, do it like in planescape, this way:

You’ve mentioned that you want this to be a resurrection of old-school Black Isle RPGs in general. So how do you cater to Wasteland fans and Fallout fans while also touching on games like Planescape: Torment, Baldur’s Gate, etc? There’s so much expectation in terms of what people want this game to be. How do you deal with all of that?

There are common threads that work their way across all those games that we are keeping a keen eye on. Having true cause and effect is a big one. A deep and interesting world is also key and there need to be surprises coming at you throughout. And yes Wasteland is party based game and that is one of the big differences from Fallout. Also there is a strong literary vibe to those games that is especially highlighted with Torment that we will continue on. We are reading every comment on our forums and setting up polls to make sure we have the broad strokes covered. Once we finalize those things we will go off and do what we do best.

I mean really!? your idea of unique and memorable character is write a list of one liners and push it through phraser, WTF do I even bother answering you?!

[paultakeda]

I already answered you,let the devs write unique and memorable characters and explained why what you suggest that never worked in JA2, would be crap and make new bioware writing as pinnacles of RPG:

viewtopic.php?p=23923#p23923
viewtopic.php?p=24102#p24102
viewtopic.php?p=24218#p24218

DO IT LIKE IN THE GOOD OLD RPGs, do it like in planescape

Yeah. You you zagged again.

We're talking about adding depth to fully controllable PCs here. Your recruitable NPCs are also in the game, just like they were in WL1, and yes, they'll be memorable. Or do you not remember Ace, Vax, or Cristina? It's been over 20 years, of course the NPCs will be more fleshed out.

What are you yelling about? Nothing.