Kitchen Sink Backpack

[jmesch04]

That's why we are discussing it. Maybe most players would want this. Since it is team based and tactical it might be an important part to the game. Why not just assume people don't like it and instead write down some cons to these systems.

[Lucius]

If YOU are one of the exceeding few people that wants for there to be some kind of encumbrance effect, there _is_ a simple solution: If you think that it is ridiculous to be carting around 30 sets of armor in your backpack, don't carry them. Drop them where you found them and walk away. Moral dilemma solved. Other players that don't care about realistic carry rules can stuff 30 Rock of Gibraltars in there if _they_ want to. EVERYBODY gets what they want!

I don't think this is really a solution, although I may have used this argument in the past myself. Saying using the choice with the least limiting effects and roleplay the system is not a valid option, imo. The game should present rules for us gamers and we should have to play within the ruleset. RPG's are about roleplaying characters, not roleplaying game mechanics. I shouldn't have to invent a restriction that isn't there. It should just be there.

With that said, I want an encumbrance system. I don't necessarily want realistic but a compromise between realism and unlimited carrying is fine. In the end, it should be fun and not a game stopping burden.

[CaptainPatch]

The game should present rules for us gamers and we should have to play within the ruleset.

Just had a chuckle. When I read this, the first thing that flashed through my mind was a school principal saying, "Children need discipline. They need limits and boundaries." Overall, a valid point, but the image tickled my funny bone.

Yeah, it wouldn't hurt to have additional detailed structure added -- but NOT if it reduces the resources to enhance other areas of the game. On this budget we can't expect a Ferrari with ALL the trimmings. More like a more generic mid-sized vehicle, but with a real snazzy paint job. If it sells well enough, the next model will have more bells-and-whistles.

[Braven]

The thing is good design doesn't take a massive budget. 3D modeling and voice acting and music and stuff like that take budget. Keeping executives fat takes budget. Creating the database of weapons, armor, and items and where you can put these items takes more resources in terms of making it play right than it does in how to code it. When we get to play the betas I'm sure everyone will have an opinion on this.

[Clawdius]

A person can carry a rocket launcher into battle, sure. Two is a stretch, but possible. Three is just silly; how would he even carry that?.

When it comes to rocket launchers, that's a fairly broad term. Often times the ammunition is one of the heaviest aspects of a Rocket Launcher, a Bazooka could weigh between 10-13 lbs or so, but each rocket propelled grenade to fire from it would add 3.5lbs or so to your pack. Bazooka tubes typically would have a method to make them easier to carry, a strap so you could sling it over your shoulder. Carrying 30-40lbs on your back may not be comfortable, but it's entirely possible and plausible. The game is based in a post apocalyptic world that had our world end in the 80s if they don't retcon the original. So, lets say that you were refering to a Stinger missile system, which has a weight of 33.5lbs, and each individual missile weighed about 22lbs. That certainly would be unreasonable to expect one person to lug around several of for any distance at all. However, it is also a Surface to Air Missile and rather unnecessary in a wasteland without helicopters and planes to shoot at. However, modern soldiers could possibly carry anything from 80-100+lbs in their pack, depending on weather conditions and other circumstances.


Mind you my intention is not to be condescending or insulting, simply to illustrate another point of view. I understand your point. Yes, weight and bulk restrictions offered by inventory systems such as that found in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. are an attractive system, and I imagine that the developers will look into something just like that. Ideally they might allow for an ammo belt that can contain several clips, and a backpack that is allowed to be more general purpose. I imagine the developers who created so very many inventory systems will have their own perspective on this, but I expect anything they come up with will be a little more creative than "carry 30 tulips or 30 ingots of gold" in this day and age.

Whatever is left behind at an encounter site or a "dungeon" site could be gathered up by a salvage team that is radioed in from Ranger Base. Basically, when you radio in your result you can also request a salvage team come out and bring everything back to the base. This neatly takes care of the loot issue without losing anything and it makes sense since Ranger Base is probably looking for resources.

The player can loot whatever they want from the encounter, radio in, and when they return to Ranger Base they can be compensated for the stuff. If there are any small high value items then the player characters can gather them up and take them with them for use in settlements.

Plus, depending on how dangerous the location was, the salvage team could be ambushed or even wiped out leading to more adventures!

I absolutely advocate this, the salvage team concept securing supplies for the Ranger HQ is an excellent idea. I mentioned this sort of a concept in the "don't give us too much money with nothing to spend it on" thread, and tied it into the "let us establish a base" thread. There are multiple possibilities for this that could add a lot to gameplay. Gathering up the various weapons left behind to be slagged or cashed in by the HQ ties nicely in to what I was talking about then. It also neatly provides you will have less desire to try to carry half the wasteland on the backs of your party.

[Gatt9]

If YOU are one of the exceeding few people that wants for there to be some kind of encumbrance effect, there _is_ a simple solution: If you think that it is ridiculous to be carting around 30 sets of armor in your backpack, don't carry them. Drop them where you found them and walk away. Moral dilemma solved. Other players that don't care about realistic carry rules can stuff 30 Rock of Gibraltars in there if _they_ want to. EVERYBODY gets what they want!

I don't think this is really a solution, although I may have used this argument in the past myself. Saying using the choice with the least limiting effects and roleplay the system is not a valid option, imo. The game should present rules for us gamers and we should have to play within the ruleset. RPG's are about roleplaying characters, not roleplaying game mechanics. I shouldn't have to invent a restriction that isn't there. It should just be there.

With that said, I want an encumbrance system. I don't necessarily want realistic but a compromise between realism and unlimited carrying is fine. In the end, it should be fun and not a game stopping burden.

I would disagree. Honestly, with every RPG I've played, and in every group I've ever played in, the very first thing to be houseruled out is encumbrance. Limited pack slots people don't seem to mind, but the overhead involved in an encumbrance system that really just exists only to prevent players from carrying every fork and button out of a castle just doesn't create a healthy system.

Limited pack space does the same thing, with a great deal less overhead.

I can live with it either way, but honestly, of all RPG's rules, this is the one I've seen disregarded more than anything else.

[Drool]

Hey, if a guy wants to stuff his backpack full of rifles and walk around the wasteland with rifle butts stick out behind his head, while having no ammo whatsoever, more power to him. He can be a tool just like Hell Razor.

I would do that with Laser Pistols from the Sewers to power-level my Energy Weapons skill. Grab it, rip the clip, toss it away.

Nowadays there are autosort functions so you don't have to figure out how to make everything fit, they game does that automatically if you choose.

Even with autosort, I loathe inventory tetris. I don't care if it's more realistic, it annoys me to no end. I'd prefer limited slots (like Wasteland) or straight up encumbrance. Besides, the most realistic would be encumbrance + tetris, and then we could spend all day playing with our inventory instead of the game. We could even add delay factors to pull something from the bottom of the pack instead of the top!

Also, krellen, I think you could swap armor in combat. I know I've done it with forcing an encounter when nobody's around after the whole party has upgraded at once.

[Thrin]

I thought this was relevant to the discussion. Something to keep in mind if we're thinking about immersion and game play issues surrounding inventory and loot.

http://youtu.be/ALbQQzePzt4

[hatchetman82]

im actually in favor of a detailed system for this.
maybe not tetris (thats annoying) but assigning total weight and volume limits to what a character can carry and only a limited number of "hot" weapon slots (those few weapons the character has on his body and not in his pack to theyre available in combat without much penalty). maybe you could rummage through your sack during combat, but the heavier/bigger it is, the more time it takes.
also, how about combat penalties for heavily-laden characters ? obviously not if youre the attacking party, but if youre ambushed while carrying a ton of stuff in your backpack, you might lose a turn taking it off ?

the salvage team idea sounds a bit weak to me - maybe if youre near HQ but waaaay out in the perilous wastes? unlikely.

if you allow for vehicles (nothing fancy, possibly a horse and carriage) you could have almost infinite storage using those (and maybe unloading them to an actual warehouse in HQ?)

[Celtic927]

Again...I hate when realism makes games less fun. Its seems theres a group of people that want games to be realistic at the cost of FUN. A game could be boring as long as it FEELS REAL... I agree the INV system should be easy to use, and such, but it doesn't really bother me if people are carrying motorcycles in their back pack. I think a simple encumbrance system is fair, and maybe some penalties for hvy weapons and armor, but otherwise LETS not over think stuff

[ravenshrike]

While we're at it, let's make the time scale and world map travel 1:1 as well. Ohhh, and we can add things like dysentery, constipation, measels, the axle on your Conestoga wagon breaking... wait, when did this become Oregon Trail.

[Drestlin]

ill just leave it here:

jagged alliance 2 (belts, vests, pants etc)+ a backpack for the tiny things that cant be used during combat with a reasonable weight limit.

[Googolplexbyte]

Guess what? Wasteland already fits all your criteria - limited inventory, everything takes space, weapon changing takes a whole turn, no armour changing in combat.

This thread is pointless.

Oh, I forgot the kickstarter campaign was for a remake not a sequel...

Things are going to change and the fans are here to express what else they want added and what shouldn't be changed.

[Sxerks]

Here is a Inventory UI thread in the what to include forum.

[SockMan]

I'm okay with whatever the developers come up with so long as as the inventory system is not so basic as to allow you to carry 30 engines (but no more than 30 credit cards!) but is also not so complicated as to require excessive micromanagement getting in the way of actually having fun.

[dbcooper]

Whatever is left behind at an encounter site or a "dungeon" site could be gathered up by a salvage team that is radioed in from Ranger Base. Basically, when you radio in your result you can also request a salvage team come out and bring everything back to the base. This neatly takes care of the loot issue without losing anything and it makes sense since Ranger Base is probably looking for resources.

The player can loot whatever they want from the encounter, radio in, and when they return to Ranger Base they can be compensated for the stuff. If there are any small high value items then the player characters can gather them up and take them with them for use in settlements.

Plus, depending on how dangerous the location was, the salvage team could be ambushed or even wiped out leading to more adventures!

I absolutely advocate this, the salvage team concept securing supplies for the Ranger HQ is an excellent idea. I mentioned this sort of a concept in the "don't give us too much money with nothing to spend it on" thread, and tied it into the "let us establish a base" thread. There are multiple possibilities for this that could add a lot to gameplay. Gathering up the various weapons left behind to be slagged or cashed in by the HQ ties nicely in to what I was talking about then. It also neatly provides you will have less desire to try to carry half the wasteland on the backs of your party.

I'm thirding this idea.

I've been playing CRPGs far longer than I'd like to admit. For me, at some point they devolve into an exercise in inventory management. I admit that I have my own uh, personal, issues that contribute to this.

In any case, I don't think I'm alone.

I welcome anything that can be done to make inventory management easier; keyboard shortcuts (Fallout 3), per-interaction buyback, inventory filtering (Fallout 3 did this well), conversion of unwanted equipment into "omni-gel" (Mass Effect), some place to store all the things I'm unwilling to sell but can't carry, etc.

I would like to see some way to automate repeated cleanup trips to convert unwanted loot to cash. I have no problem paying an in-game overhead for a salvage team to cleanup after my party and give me 80-90% of what they get from selling everything not bolted down in the dungeon I cleared out. If they get captured occasionally and need me to bail them out, so be it.

Basically I want to spend more time doing fun stuff--exploring, killing bad guys, solving quests--and less acquiring as much money as I can in case I need it at some point later in the game for storyline reasons (NWN HotU), to buy the expensive high-end equipment from the merchant I just discovered or to build up the strength of my home base/ship so that it can survive some upcoming battle (ME2, DA:O Awakening).

I'm not really concerned how the designers choose to balance the per-character inventory management. I can deal w/ space-based (Deus Ex), weight-based (Fallout 3) or item count (ME) cost. I think a combination of those approaches may be pointless realism.

Okay, maybe I do care how you implement the inventory system. I like the ability to swap out weapon/armor configurations easily (Baldur's Gate, NWN, ToEE), like Sxerks example inventory screen.

I saw Brian Fargo mention WoW's customizable UI in a recent video interview. Giving me the ability to add keyboard shortcuts via XML editing (or scripting) is sufficient. However, the salvage team concept could be best fit into the game world by the dev. team (game balance, cost, additional side quests, etc.).

Edit: I guess the salvage team requests should be posted in a different sub-forum.

[Shady314]

Oh my god yes please. The X-Com way. Also known as hard points. It probably has other names. You never see that sort of thing anymore but it's really the only way I've found to get players to make real (IE interesting) choices in their loadout.

Why carry a pistol when that rifle is so much better? Because that's all you can have on your hip. How many grenades can I pull out in combat? As many as you can clip to your belt. (Let's say 4) After combat you can pull more from your backpack to clip back on. Etc.

Yes that RPG is devastating but you can only fire it once before switching weapons. Or take a whole turn to pull out the another missile from your backpack. Of course you've only found 2 working ones so far.... you're pretty sure they work anyways. (It is post-apocalypse and making new ones is expensive and hard) Best saved for the Scorpitron and the like.

As for making inventory management easier. I've found the best ways in all the PnP games I've run is to just give players less. Before I used to be pretty generous. To the point they and I would forget all the crap they had on hand. Then they'd get a bag of holding and they'd have everything on hand. Which did make things easier but was also just... eh. Now I give them far less, try to tailor encounters and challenges to what they have, and make what they do get more meaningful. They customise their guns (when modern or sci-fi) and upgrade/reforge their weapons (when fantasy). CRPGs have started throwing more and more useless crap at us to the point we've literally had games with a section for TRASH! Something is very wrong when your inventory screen has a TRASH button. (And I'm not talking about a destroy item option)

[cah]

Sorta like tetris inventory. However there were different body locations. Like belt legs shoulders and then a back back. Small sidearms could be put in your belt or in your backpack, however it took more time to get something from your backpack then your belt of shoulder. Bigger guns if they weren't already equipped would only fit in your back-pack. There was also weight. If you carried to much you fatigued faster. Shooting used little fatigue but things like running used a lot if you were loaded down and weak.

And you had a VTOL to hold all the extra equipment in between encounters.

[Gumpo]

I like the X-Com / Jagged Alliance Tetris method. Several hard points for items that you have easy access to or are currently equipped makes you think about each characters loadout more. (One of my favorite parts of the X-Com series was equipping my squad for an encounter) A weight limit in conjunction with a fairly large tetris grid for a backpack would be my preference, and it would be fun if during character creation perks or traits could be selected to make a particular character able to have more inventory slots or carry a higher weight limit. Since some people like less restrictions, this system can be easily adapted through a few options to limit complaint from players who don't like excessive inventory management - Have a check box to disable weight restrictions, a checkbox to make the backpack endless, and a check box to make pulling a weapon from the backpack use no more time units than from a hard point.

[Gearhead]

I'm not complaining, especially since I'm such a packrat in RPGs, but it just doesn't seem quite right to be able to carry 80,000 rounds of belted 7.76 ammo in my pack.

I do like the idea of grid inventories and weight restrictions, with perks to expand them: it forces me to make tough decisions.