Game should be modding-friendly

[SXX]

Latest update is come to us.
So, we will get properly mod support if project hit $3,000,000 tier.
I believe it's possible and we'll got lot of interesting mods.

[Raith_Sienar]

Sure, it is possible to reach the 3M mark, but that is kind of a bullshit tactic on their part. It just looks like that they are holding mods hostage, "Get us 3M or else WE WONT RELEASE THE TOOLS WE BUILT THE GAME WITH!" Seriously, why not just release the tools you made the game with? That shouldn't even cost you an extra dime, don't give me this bullshit that you have to make a specific tool set for mods. I didn't realize that this game was Little Big Planet and needed a dumbed down "Mod Tools" for us poor little morons to make our own mods, because we are such simpletons that we can't figure out the developers tools.

[Goral]

(...) I didn't realize that this game was Little Big Planet and needed a dumbed down "Mod Tools" for us poor little morons to make our own mods, because we are such simpletons that we can't figure out the developers tools.

Many people here where asking specifically for a mod kit so calm down. And if you're so good you will crack the code even without developers tools.

Long time ago mods weren't needed to make a game playable, it was good on it's own and sometimes it was perfect (Sacrifice for example). Now many gamers want to customize a game to their taste and personally I don't like it. The game should be worth the money without people 'improving' it. If not it's worth shit and it shouldn't be bought. Fallout 3 is shit even with the mods, you can't polish a turd.

[dmazz]

The 3 million is for the custom made hard coded easy to use modkit, similar to bethseda and Bioware. But they didn't say anything about making the game modding friendly or releasing what tools and docs they have.

I'm optimistic that if we don't reach 3 million, which is very likely. Then they won't put up any roadblocks against modding the game.

As for releasing their tools, the tools that helped build the game may be licensed from Obsidian, and as such they can't release them. Instead they'd have to build their own separate tools or buy them from Obsidian so players can get their hands on them. Both options sound expensive.

Also had a better idea than developing a modkit prerelease. They should just instead promise a dollar sum amount to developing/polishing mod tools after the release of the game. This could be a percentage of profits/revenue or say 50K reserved for the modkit for every half a million in revenue. That approach would also help support and cooperation with the modding community, post release.

[Nori]

Correct me if I'm wrong but they haven't selected a final engine to make the game in yet right? So if they selected say, Unity, isn't there already tools available to make modding simpler and it would just be a question of if we get custom tools, which while nice is secondary to having modding the game files being easy.

[dmazz]

Yeah, the fact they haven't even begun to decide which engine they are going to use means they don't really know how much effort will be needed to make a modkit.

Talking about the percentages. 15% of people want a modkit, if we take that amount for every one million dollars, then we have 150K per one million dollars that should be justly given to develop the modkit. Now lets say we need two programmers, working for a year to develop the modkit. That would mean at least 210K dollars is needed (100K each salary a year, plus 10 000 for hardware). That means the modkit would only have all the money it needs when we have approx $2 350 000. So them asking for 3 million is too much. Asking for 2.5 million is much more reasonable.

Although we haven't accounted for the engine licensing costs or the Obsidian tools licensing costs. The increased budget for example may enable them to get a more expensive engine than they otherwise would have if they only raised 1 million. So perhaps 3 million isn't that an unreasonable number after all.

[SXX]

Many people here where asking specifically for a mod kit so calm down.

I think "mod kit" mean not just "tools" but mostly its properly support for modding in game code.
E.g Bethesda's reworked Gamebryo have very powerful system for modifications which allow to manage game resources and control conflicts easily.
I believe mod support mean that.

And if you're so good you will crack the code even without developers tools.

It's take more time and make this work really hard.

Long time ago mods weren't needed to make a game playable, it was good on it's own and sometimes it was perfect (Sacrifice for example). Now many gamers want to customize a game to their taste and personally I don't like it.

It's strange position if you don't like what somebody else doing. I think if you don't like modding you shouldn't care about somebody else who like it.
I really love to change game for myself, because its allow me to remove some things which I don't like.
We never have 100% perfect games, there always was some bugs or unbalanced things.

And what more important: properly mod support allow to make game 2 times longer by custom content.
As well its allow community to make their own textures and improve graphics.
So more money can be spend on core gameplay and community make graphics better with their own patches.

The game should be worth the money without people 'improving' it. If not it's worth shit and it shouldn't be bought. Fallout 3 is shit even with the mods, you can't polish a turd.

I fully agree with you here. Game core is most important than modding or anything else.

...

Talking about the percentages. 15% of people want a modkit.

You are a bit wrong here.
This poll allow to choice up to 5 things once.

I pretty sure more than 85% of people choose first option " Larger world and more content" (1211 votes and 25% of all votes).
And "Mod kit" got 711 votes (15% of all votes).
So as minimum modding feature supported as minimum by 40% of all people here.

[Nori]

I wonder what engines they are thinking of using... Unity and UDK are both very nice engines that could greatly speed up development and in the case of Unity, it is really cheap... But I am rather curious as to what the other options on the plate are (not that I'm guessing we have much input on what they choose).

[SXX]

and in the case of Unity, it is really cheap...

No, Unity isn't cheap engine.
It's have cheap binary license, but project like Wasteland 2 couldn't be made without source code.

Same for Unreal Engine (UDK), but inXile already worked with source code license, so I think it will be not so hard to get special license from Epic.
Anyway, please, let stay on topic because there is already some special topic for engines discussion.

[Nori]

and in the case of Unity, it is really cheap...

No, Unity isn't cheap engine.
It's have cheap binary license, but project like Wasteland 2 couldn't be made without source code.

Same for Unreal Engine (UDK), but inXile already worked with source code license, so I think it will be not so hard to get special license from Epic.
Anyway, please, let stay on topic because there is already some special topic for engines discussion.

It was meant to be on topic as the engine they use has a very big affect on the ease of moddability for the game. I have not looked for another engine topic as I was specifically talking about this in relation to modding as engine tools was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Anyway, I would like it if inExile broke down what they plan for modding. For instance, some games have easy modding of certain parts of the game just because of the file format. If for instance a game uses lua files, then just edit the lua files and you have modded... Other games don't have easily editable files. What inExile seem to be talking about, in relation to modding, at the 3m pledge point is modding tools specifically, like Bethesda's GECK or Creation toolkits.
Then again, they are so early in development that they probably don't have much to talk about yet...

[Zico]

Sure, we do not reach $3,000,000.
This means they do not want to give us mod-tools?

[SXX]

Sure, we do not reach $3,000,000.

Don't be so negative.
Double Fine Adventure get last million just in week, and more than $500,000 in last two days.
Wasteland have all chances to get this tier.

This means they do not want to give us mod-tools?

Mod-tools != dev tools which I believe they can share with us anyway.

I think mod tools mean some special support for modding because even with plain text and open formats of content we will need some tools for mod management and conflicts control.
We can live even without something special, but its can be really useful to have game which developed with thinking of modders.

[Plasmablaster]

I have a feeling that the tools & assets will be released even if the 3M mark won't be achieved. Maybe there won't be a "user-tailored modkit" but dedicated modders will manage to produce their mods.

[dmazz]

I'm not very optimistic but if we miss out on 3 million by a couple of hundred thousand, then I'm sure they'll have give us something and not just 'too bad no mod tools for you'.

Also we might get lucky and the engine they choose will be modding friendly.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

As for releasing their tools, the tools that helped build the game may be licensed from Obsidian, and as such they can't release them. Instead they'd have to build their own separate tools or buy them from Obsidian so players can get their hands on them. Both options sound expensive.

This raises the question, why license tools from somebody else when we are paying them to develop their own game. I want them to have full control of their own game. They ought to have their own custom development tools not licensed to anybody, or at least not restricted in how they distribute them. Sounds like getting the assets in easier (via Obsidian) could end up some kind of ball and chain.

[dmazz]

Obsidian has great dialogue tools and other RPG tools that would greatly speed up development. If they didn't have those tools they'd have to make their own which given their time limit would be significantly inferior. The Obsidian ones have been developed and polished for years.

It might be a ball and chain but no more than the engine they choose, which will be chosen for it's speed of content pipeline too. They've only got 12 months, providing a mod kit is not their priority. If they had more money they could hire people specifically to develop mod tools, that's why they are asking for more money.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Obsidian has great dialogue tools and other RPG tools that would greatly speed up development. If they didn't have those tools they'd have to make their own which given their time limit would be significantly inferior. The Obsidian ones have been developed and polished for years.

It might be a ball and chain but no more than the engine they choose, which will be chosen for it's speed of content pipeline too. They've only got 12 months, providing a mod kit is not their priority. If they had more money they could hire people specifically to develop mod tools, that's why they are asking for more money.

Hmmm, this brings up another possibility. They don't necessarily need to have such a small window of development. We are all partners, right? The Kickstarter project can be phase one of the project. There's no saying they can't raise money elsewhere, independently even, if the community wants to give them more time to develop and more time to collect money. They said they are waiting six months to talk to the gamers before they begin developing. A lot can change in six months, including more donations and a new, modified plan. If we are really creating this game together with the developers (to some degree), then the game is sort of our Constitution, or our origin document together. We (devs and gamers) can make any ameliorative changes to our arrangement that we collectively agree upon.

[dmazz]

I doubt there will be any increased funding drive in the 6 month predevelopment stage, which will start very soon. Obsidian will be of little help either since they are on the brink of bankruptcy. With such a tight schedule, there will be little time for funding drives. Also more money at that stage would probably slow down development.

But if we don't reach 3 million, we might hear more talk about the modkit. Here's an idea, they get volunteer programmers/modders who will develop the mod tools for free during development. Cause I recently read a developer say 13K a month is the average cost of a dev. Which means hiring two guys to work on the mod tools for a year will cost 332K+. Not cheap. In addition another reason they are unenthusiastic about developing a modkit is it involves alot of wasted time and money. A modkit can only really be properly built after the final game is complete, not during it's development. So they may see it as a waste of money, and would rather see the modkit made after the game is finished.

[PiPboy]

Latest update is come to us.
So, we will get properly mod support if project hit $3,000,000 tier.
I believe it's possible and we'll got lot of interesting mods.

The third most asked about feature is for us to provide a mod kit to allow players to create their own scenarios. I have always loved those kinds of tool-sets to set players loose to keep the world expanding. To create these kinds of tools is time consuming and requires a separate team of guys to do it. While we are not ready to commit to that feature yet, we can say that if we were to hit 3 million dollars,

Now that Obsidian Guys are aboard with obsidian tool set. We probably have a higher chance of a tool set.

[dmazz]

True, although those tools are Obsidian property, at least they exist. This reminds me that the onyx engine was very likely designed with modding in mind, so these tools are part of that engine. Making me believe they were meant to one day be released to the modding community when they release one of their RPG's, perhaps it will make an appearance for South Park the game. But chances look good they'll be released for Wasteland 2.