Movie silencer or real silencer ?

[dariuszp]

Hi,
got a question about silencers. We all know silencers from a movie where they do only "phew phew" and no one notice a thing. We know silencers from a games where they do exact same thing (Hollywood style) and you can kill a guy 2m from another guy and he will NEVER NOTICE A THING (Hitman series, Splinter Cell etc...).

QUESTION
Should Brian keep Hollywood style silencers if they will be included in the game OR should he use real silencer ? Example of real ones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51AEuOts1YU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFY0aHftVHg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68uwYqUbMQU

Someone would ask - what is the point of using silencers then ? Simple. Real silencers don't suppress your gun to the point where no one notice a thing. Real gun make a sound louder than car engine. Some make sounds so big that it can hurt your ears in some situations (this is why you have headphones on shooting range). So it help shooter.

ALSO and what is most important here - people that hear shoots have problem with pinpointing place of the shooting. Simple as that. Noise you see is suppressed so you think that it was much greater distance than it is.

We know what will happen when you start shooting. Nearby enemies will run to help their comrades and they will run to the place where you shoot. I think that silencers should:
~ reduce distance so enemies that are far from shooting wont hear a thing until people with no silencers start shooting
~ disorient enemies so they will have problems with pinpointing location. This could result with them searching nearby rooms and buildings while when there is no silencer they would run in our direction.

And for god sake - no killing people next to other guys in a way they don't notice. Even body that hit the ground make enough noise to alarm nearby enemies.

SO IF SILENCERS WILL BE INCLUDED
~ you want Hollywood silencers
~ or real silencers

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

You have headphones in a shooting range because it's an very small enclosed space you are shooting from. The noise resulted will bounce all over the place and I've have went disorientated just from shooting 3 rounds from a .45 revolver without any ear protection (younger me did it for the lulz). You would have to go ask an active personnel how does the convention 5.56 round sound like in larger enclosed areas such inside a hallway, house or a hall.

In wide open spaces where most shooting happens, shooting most conventional supersonic military grade rifle rounds sounds fine. It's much more decibels compared to a car engine (really good analogy btw, industry standard right there) or a jackhammer, but the intensity is no where near putting your ears near a diesel engine being revved. Sure, you should not open fire when your barrel is right next to someone's ear. That'll be rude and it'll probably make them a bit on the deaf side as well.

So on silencers, I said this one somewhere before I think, but I have heard an FNP 45 with an osprey silencer that makes the slide sound like it's making a louder noise than the actual shot (might be wrong, I was standing about maybe 15-20 metres away). That said, most pistol rounds are subsonic, and therefore the rounds themselves work fine alongside silencers. Still it would be nice if they implement the suppressor effect like in real life. You could even have a parameter for the guns for sound (can be heard from x tiles away?) so say a trashy silencer will help a .308 bolt action rifle muffle 25% of the noise, and a military grade one can do 60% on a semi/bolt rifle and only a mere 45% on automatic fire. The sound parameter can then be further adjusted with either using subsonic/supersonic rounds (supersonic being the standard rifle round, which will penalize the % of the silencer's noise muffling capabilities. Subsonic will merely allow the suppressors to work at 100% efficiency). Without being too nitpicky about how they work in real life, that's how I would translate it into game form.

[Gazz]

The realism issue also depends on at least one other very important thing:
Ingame firearm ranges.

In many games (like JA2), firearms have ridiculously low ranges (compared to the size-scale of soldiers) because otherwise you'd need huge maps (that cost money to create) and would spend all day looking for the enemy.
Silencers would need to use the same, whacky scale, but more likely is that they would be balanced upon what makes sense in ingame situations, not any realistic range in m. =)

[dariuszp]

I don't see point in weapon range at all in this game if they won't create some very big maps. Fallout did it very simple. Guns had quite a range compare to size of the maps but your aim decrease with distance (so at some point you are shooting on pure luck). Also you had 2 types of shot. Aim shot that take more AP and fast shoot.

I agree with above. Silencer and ammo should change distance of the sound so silencer + subsonic ammo should attract less enemies except situation when location have some kind of alarm.

This would make fight easier BUT not easy like in Hitman or Spliner Cell or some other games where you just kill one enemy by one with silencer whole map just making sure they don't spot you.

[UniversalWolf]

There's a good article on suppressors in last month's American Rifleman:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... ng-sports/

FWIW, I'm all for "huge" maps and "realistic" suppressors.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

There's a good article on suppressors in last month's American Rifleman:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... ng-sports/

FWIW, I'm all for "huge" maps and "realistic" suppressors.

As one suppressor advocate in Montana asked earlier this year during the legislative session, should all bow hunters be required to sound an air horn every time they release an arrow in order to alert any nearby wardens? The reality is, the less muzzle noise heard by the non-hunting public, the better off we all are.

But yes, I find that I like putting my hoodie up when firing a rifle. A thick cotton layer covering my ears have protected me from hearing loss for quite a while now.

[Wild_Bill_711]

Would think (for game purposes) all 'guns' could be considered to be equipped with 'sound suppressors' (less 'work/bother' for players)... still any animal / humanoid adversary 'hit' will squeal, howl, scream, or make some sound to alert others UNLESS the first shot is fatal !!!

In Wasteland 'guns' usually had an 'effective range'... guessing pistols up to 30 feet & carbines/rifles up to 90 feet... accuracy / 'hits' determined by combination of 'skill level with particular weapon' influenced by 'dexterity' & 'luck'... just 'fewer misses' at extended ranges with higher (a 4 or 5+) skill level.

Rangers are just average-good 'soldiers'... NOT 'super-shots' ('snipers') lol !!!

P.S. - I always used "Sonic Ear Valves"... like ear plugs, but could still hear normal sounds/noises while muffling 'gun shots' !

[cyrilverba]

thanks, op, for bringing that up!

personally, i'm for realistic silencers - want to take away the muzzle flash and not give the enemy your exact location? silencer! want to be REASONABLY undetectable? crossbow! want complete silence? knives!

[Celtic927]

I think we mircoscoping a bit here, Worrying about the sound of silencers is a little esoteric don't you think

[cyrilverba]

I think we mircoscoping a bit here, Worrying about the sound of silencers is a little esoteric don't you think

if only a bit. introducing absolutely silent means of ranged combat with non-single-loading weapons effectively can turn a game into a stealth-puzzle. we don't want that. i don't, personally.

[Son of Max]

Rangers are just average-good 'soldiers'... NOT 'super-shots' ('snipers') lol !!!

Actually, I think it would be cool if characters could take a 'Sharpshooter' skill that gives the characters bonuses on to hit rolls with firearms. The weapons skills themselves represent familiarity with the weapon; a working knowledge of the weapon, how to maintain it, how to fix it when it jams, how to use it effectively, but doesn't necessarily make the characters crack shots just because they reach a certain level with the weapon.

Sharpshooter would be a skill that focuses totally on mastery with the weapon as a shooter and reflects that training and dedication to the art of shooting, kinda like Pugilism reflected a mastery of the art of fighting with one's bare hands in the original.

[Lirpakkaa]

Rangers are just average-good 'soldiers'... NOT 'super-shots' ('snipers') lol !!!

Considering all the things my rangers did in the original... They were definitely not just average soldiers.

[mina86]

if only a bit. introducing absolutely silent means of ranged combat with non-single-loading weapons effectively can turn a game into a stealth-puzzle. we don't want that. i don't, personally. :?

I would actually like to be able to create a character who can instantly kill people from miles with a silenced sniper rifle while being undetected. Not that it should be easy to accomplish, but on high enough level, with gear that you had to get by completing quests, I don't see why not. As such I'd prefer “Hollywood silencers”.

[cyrilverba]

miles

a silenced weapon fired from somewhere miles away will be hardly distinguishable from environment noise or any other innocent sound. anyway, if a.i. won't be a complete dumbass, a location concealment bonus will be the only benefit of using silent weapons anyway - everyone will be on full alert after the first body hits the floor.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

If you are going to fire miles away (current record being more than 2.4 kilometer) no one is going to hear jack. The only sound you can possibly pick up is the sound of the bullet landing somewhere. Believe it or not, the current record holder actually calibrated his shot 9 times before hitting the 2 insurgents and disabling the MG nest.

/facepalm.

[cyrilverba]

..not to mention the fact that even the best military sniper rifles have some .5 moa accuracy in the hands of a trained badass with handpicked ammo at a 1 mile range, which already will translate into barely being able to target a vehicle/mg nest..

[mina86]

I think you guys took “miles” too seriously -- I was speaking figuratively. Maybe I should have written that I would love to create a silent assassin who kills instantly with knife in ones throat, silenced pistol from the shadows in the street/corridor or silenced sniper rifle on the rooftop.

In either case, what I'm saying is that I don't really care about realism that much, and so I would prefer a silencer that silences my gun totally. Alternatively some stun gun maybe? Also, no need to limit ourselves to conventional weapons -- laser gun, coilgun, etc.

[cyrilverba]

I think you guys took “miles” too seriously -- I was speaking figuratively. Maybe I should have written that I would love to create a silent assassin who kills instantly with knife in ones throat, silenced pistol from the shadows in the street/corridor or silenced sniper rifle on the rooftop.

In either case, what I'm saying is that I don't really care about realism that much, and so I would prefer a silencer that silences my gun totally. Alternatively some stun gun maybe? Also, no need to limit ourselves to conventional weapons -- laser gun, coilgun, etc.

good idea, actually! make laser rifles the new age sniper's weapon of choice: absolutely silent, requiring rare and heavy batteries but providing pinpoint accuracy at any distance. everyone happy. also, you could make them work better at night, since dark surfaces absorb light better!

[mina86]

also, you could make them work better at night, since dark surfaces absorb light better!

No, that does not work that way. ;) The fact that something is not illuminated does not mean it will absorb more light. Dark colours absorb more light (and that's why they are dark), but the percentage of photons material absorbs does not depend on how may photons hit the surface (of course, there may be some edge cases).

[cyrilverba]

also, you could make them work better at night, since dark surfaces absorb light better!

No, that does not work that way. The fact that something is not illuminated does not mean it will absorb more light. Dark colours absorb more light (and that's why they are dark), but the percentage of photons material absorbs does not depend on how may photons hit the surface (of course, there may be some edge cases).

ugh.. i'll be ashamed of that post forever.. the 'my-working-day-is-over-in-five-minutes' ecstasy got the better of me.