2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

[dmazz]

Although I cannot equivocally state that 2D is cheaper and faster than 3D. (except for animated characters) There is an undeniable tendency that cheap and quick to develop games are mostly in 2D. As I said before 2D is more responsive and flexible to time and cost concerns. The more time and money, the more lushly detailed 2D images are allowed to become. The cheaper and less time a game has to be developed in the more basic and stylistic the 2D art. In 3D things are alot more rigid, which is no doubt why only fully funded expensive games go the 3D route. 2D's superiority in this regard even extends to 3D, where 3D games emulate the 2D look. (Warcraft III)

A nice 3D look for Wasteland 2 would be Diablo III, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OovFHSxn-A but that game hasn't even come out yet, and has taken 10 years and untold millions to get made. (Interesting fact, Its lead world designer is Leonard Boyarsky, one of the six co-creators of Fallout.) A lesser option would be Company of Heroes released 2006. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_11d-_Dlqk Interestingly it and Dawn of War II use the same graphics engine. This tells us 3D is catching up to 2D but still only for AAA games with the best tech engines available. (Company of heroes with a patch became the first game to support Direct3D10)

[Gizmo]

As I said before 2D is more responsive and flexible to time and cost concerns.

I would think that that entirely depends on the scope and intended platforms of the game. If the game has 150 animated objects they might complete the art faster with 2D; but if it has 1500 animated objects ~especially if intended to be 2d sprites in the final game, then 3D would probably surpass 2D for time efficiency. If I were the artist, I would probably charge more to do the work as hand drawn 2D sprite sets than as rendered 3d mesh art.

and Dawn of War II use the same graphics engine. This tells us 3D is catching up to 2D but still only for AAA games with the best tech engines available.

It's a shame about Dawn of War 2 [IMO]... This is what it was conceptualized to be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzVlpUf7e5w

[krellen]

Why is everyone dismissing the possibility of "animation" meaning -> that right over there?

[dmazz]

2D images require much less man hours of artwork compared to 3D characters of equal graphical quality. (given a fixed camera)

Everyone also should forget about 2D animation. Even Fallout doesn't have 2D animation, it had 3D animated figures rendered into 2D sprites. The talking heads were animated in 3D too, then rendered into 2D sprites. That's what could happen in this game, but more likely and even less work would be just full 3D figures.

[Gizmo]

The talking heads were animated in 3D too, then rendered into 2D sprites.

Those heads took like 4 to 6 weeks each, and they started out as a wad of clay; hand digitized, and then animated.

[dmazz]

My mistake. Nowadays they would use special 3D animation software for the face, making it alot faster to do.

[Gizmo]

My mistake.

Not a mistake... It was certainly 3D mesh data ~scanned from the clay sculpture. They animated it and did the lipsync work in "Lightwave".

Why is everyone dismissing the possibility of "animation" meaning -> that right over there?

But does it really have to be 16 color XOR'ed sprites?
How about something like this instead?

[DeN_DarK]

Animated 2d or 3d will be good.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

That new game at Aldorlea, "The Book of Legends", looks cool.

I just finished the trial. That might have to be my next game purchase.

Fantastic! I hope they get some money. When I described the indie RPG scene as "thriving," I meant more like "struggling." They need your support!

Disciples 3 was in development for more than 4 years. And from an isometric viewpoint is arguably less good looking than it's 2D predecessor.

As an example of 2D visual design, I was thinking more along dishwaseher vampire smile. http://au.gamespot.com/the-dishwasher-v ... w-6307251/ A game that is also low budget a, $10 dlc on xbox.

But those games work too, and are also low budget. 2D art simply gives artists alot more control about how the final product will look ingame. I would like an example of a 3D game that looks great from a fixed camera. The only ones I can find, but that feature subpar terrain anyway, are Starcraft II and Warhammer Dawn of War II, both AAA games.

The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile looks neat. Is that a side-scroller? There are lots of neat side-scrollers, like the Abe's World: Odyssey games and Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project, to name a few. That genre has grown too, and it shows that side-scrollers don't necessarily need to be "linear" games.

The Starcraft style of game IMO descends from Wasteland. Of course all strategy games owe some heredity to Chess, Stratego, Risk, and the like, but IMO strategy computer games descend from Wasteland -> Civilization -> Warcraft -> AoE, RoN, etc -> and then lots of incest and interbreeding. Probably there are lots of other influences, but those stand out as the most obvious to me.

Now if they quit trying to do all that 3D shit in Starcraft II, maybe they could have a deeper 2D game.

My mistake.

Not a mistake... It was certainly 3D mesh data ~scanned from the clay sculpture. They animated it and did the lipsync work in "Lightwave".

Why is everyone dismissing the possibility of "animation" meaning -> that right over there?

But does it really have to be 16 color XOR'ed sprites?
How about something like this instead?

I like the gif animations! I was thinking the same thing as krellen, IMO. What can be done with a very high resolution gif animation? Could you build a background matte painting out of them, with grass blades blowing in the wind, for instance? Or build several variations on a fight scene, some of them ending in explosive blood splatter?

[krellen]

But does it really have to be 16 color XOR'ed sprites?

No. I'm absolutely on board with higher resolution animated portraits.

How about something like this instead?

... but not if they look like that. That's creepy as hell.

[Karkarov]

Yeah this is really a silly poll. 2d hand drawn images take vastly more time and effort than 3d. Especially if you want them to look good. If we are so hard up on staying old school for some nostalgia reason (cant think of any other one) then it at least needs to be 3d models in an isometric view. If you have to have 2d sprites in there no matter what use it for the background images or character portraits.

Example being the already often mentioned Temple of Elemental Evil. If this is going to be a faithful sequel (turn based, multi member party, quasi grid movement) then an isometric view is option pretty much a given if not required.

Another more recent, and potentially better, example might be the Dark Eye games like Drakensang. Fully 3d, old school RPG design based on turn based combat, can be played isometric even though the game has a free camera. This is what most current gen games in the fallout/baldur's gate theme tend to look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGlTGknUpKg

But that may be too modern for some of you.

[krellen]

3D can work for a single-character game - you're supposed to be more invested in the single character. I actually think it's a horrible engine for party games. One nice thing in Wasteland is that it didn't typically display each individual Ranger; you were displayed as a group, and you played as a group.

[Gizmo]

3D can work for a single-character game - you're supposed to be more invested in the single character. I actually think it's a horrible engine for party games. One nice thing in Wasteland is that it didn't typically display each individual Ranger; you were displayed as a group, and you played as a group.

When you say 3D, do you mean 3D as in "First Person", or as in 3D characters art?

If '3d Mesh', then I don't think I understand... ToEE (mentioned above), used 3D characters, and it was a great party based game.

If 'First Person'... Well, FPP does not equal 3D or vice versa. There are lots of first person 2D games, and ToEE & PoR2 are both 3D games that are not FPP.

That's creepy as hell.

The 'Uncanny Valley' effect could make them all that way; worse, the more work spent on them. Unless... perhaps they could be animated caricatures, or rotoscoped video?

[krellen]

ToEE was the best implementation of D&D I've seen on a computer. I still didn't like the graphics.

[Gizmo]

ToEE was the best implementation of D&D I've seen on a computer. I still didn't like the graphics.

It certainly was... but the graphics were what they created for the game... not proof of inherent limitation or inferiority of 3D art.

[krellen]

Sorry, let me be more clear - I didn't like that I always had the whole party laid out before me. I didn't like having to juggle individual characters or drag a box to select the whole party. I didn't like having to bother with formations for the party while just walking around town. It was a lot of extra work that you don't really need - Storm of Zehir at least collapsed the party down to a single character while moving on the overland map. But the overland map itself still probably would have worked better if it hadn't been constrained to a 3D engine, and you still had to juggle the whole party while in town even though there was no combat to worry about there.

[Tuco]

ToEE was the best implementation of D&D I've seen on a computer. I still didn't like the graphics.

Character models weren't that great, but when it comes to monster models and animations it was outstanding.
In fact it was so good that it holds quite well even today (and I played it once again just a month ago, so that's not my nostalgia talking).

[Tuco]

Sorry, let me be more clear - I didn't like that I always had the whole party laid out before me. I didn't like having to juggle individual characters or drag a box to select the whole party. I didn't like having to bother with formations for the party while just walking around town. It was a lot of extra work that you don't really need

Can't say I agree *at all*.

Storm of Zehir at least collapsed the party down to a single character while moving on the overland map. But the overland map itself still probably would have worked better if it hadn't been constrained to a 3D engine, and you still had to juggle the whole party while in town even though there was no combat to worry about there.

SoZ was also spectacularly ugly (like everything in NWN2), And by the way even in TOEE the party was "compressed" during travels on the overworld, as it was just a marker on the map.

[krellen]

Can't say I agree *at all*.

That's no surprise. You're like the 3D champion, and I'm the 2D grognard. We never agree on anything graphical.

And by the way even in TOEE the party was "compressed" during travels on the overworld, as it was just a marker on the map.

Yeah, IIRC, there wasn't a lot of exploration to do with the ToEE map. It was a node-system like Fallout, except you could only go to places you knew about.

[Tuco]

Can't say I agree *at all*.

That's no surprise. You're like the 3D champion, and I'm the 2D grognard. We never agree on anything graphical.

Not really, I'm quite open to both 2D and 3D games, generally speaking. I'm advocating for 3D in this specific game cause simply it makes far more sense with this budget.
On top of that, I really can't stand flat lies like "3D is never going to look good", as we aren't in the pre-2004 of computer graphics era anymore.

Beside, what you were saying is not even related to graphics (and in fact it could apply even for a 2D game, which is what ToEE essentially is for a mechanical standpoint); you are talking about controls and user interface.

Yeah, IIRC, there wasn't a lot of exploration to do with the ToEE map. It was a node-system like Fallout, except...-CUT-

Which is pretty much what I'm expecting to see in WL2, judging by how Fargo described the game so far.