Hardcore survivalist mode

[knux81]

Could we have a hardcore mode? One that adds the need to drink,eat and sleep into the mix?
Where critical wounds give you penalties like a shot to the leg (until it heals) reduces your dex or if it hits knee cap a permanent reduction?
The loss of an eye reducing perception and having a further negative effect on things that need depth perception.
Battling muties and crazy humans is awesome but what about the world itself? The needs of the human body?
Having to say take care of a seriously ill team mate while your other members are struggling with other injuries and fighting to get them to a place of proper care?
Infections...Sickness...Mental health..

The fear of not only running out of ammunition, but running out of food or water.

I guess it might be evil if one of your best party members gets their ass completely whumped and you have to hospitalize them...But you could probably counter that with picking up a new character that starts from fresh. But the hospitalized character gives him some basics which make the new one get an XP bonus on the skills used by the teacher.

I'm all for just a regular experience but I think I would take more care of a party that was as frail as people really are.
It would also make for some kick ass stories to tell people...

[knux81]

LoL....Or some crazy hallucinations caused by eating random fungi found in the desert ke ke ke

Could be an awesome opportunity for some easter eggs ^_^

[Conall]

could we eat dead party members?

[knux81]

could we eat dead party members?

Ranger brand Jerky....I like! ^_^

[TechnoShaman]

Having installed the Hardcore mods on Fallout 3, I must say I loved the heck out of them. Added so much to the immersion of the game. I think it woudl need to be toggleable, perhaps at the game start, so your are either playing hardcore mode or princess foo foo mode.

[knux81]

Having installed the Hardcore mods on Fallout 3, I must say I loved the heck out of them. Added so much to the immersion of the game. I think it woudl need to be toggleable, perhaps at the game start, so your are either playing hardcore mode or princess foo foo mode.

That's what I was hoping. The option to go super hardcore! I love games that throw everything they can at you and you mange to come out on top...Or when things don't go well and you just HAVE to go back and try and do it again. Forlorn hope is still hope after all. ^_^

[gool]

Yes, but make it the default mode.

[Conall]

I second that I want a proper 'Survival' game. Although saying that the only game that has really made me feel like gathering food was an essential mechanic was Minecraft

[knux81]

I second that I want a proper 'Survival' game. Although saying that the only game that has really made me feel like gathering food was an essential mechanic was Minecraft

Aye, same. Though with some of the older games i've bought of GOG and played...Having to buy rations for your adventures was an awesome touch. You had to balance supplies and upgrades...I mean having a shiny chest plate which resulted in your only healer slowly starving to death was not something I would care to repeat.

Especially if the NPCs go mental and try to kill and possibly eat you.

Anyone ever play The Lost Patrol? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Patrol for more info)

I had one game on that, where my leadership sucked and I pushed my platoon too hard...They decided to slip a live grenade in my sleeping bag during a night.

I laughed so much...But never did it again O.o

[Harpo]

It's a great idea and I couldn't agree more. I do not wan't to be babied around by the game like some of the new generation gamers (I do not mean to offend anyone). If you're gonna make a game that is going to instill the essence of gaming 2 decades ago - make it challenging. I'd prefer this kind of challenge 100 times more than restricted save games or similar.

I realize that not all players like this approach, but that's also why I think a [hardcore] setting would be the perfect way to offer this to all hardoce, old generation players. Or maybe as gool said; make this the default and then create a [easy] setting to make it go a little more easy on you

Btw, In this interview Double Fine Adventure Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert discusses (among other things) why publishers won't publish the challenging games of the 80's and 90's anymore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_LWmRJK-g

[krellen]

"Hardcore" and needing food have nothing to do with old or new school. At all.

Wasteland was not a game about survival. You needed a canteen to get through the desert; you needed a doctor to recover from serious wounds. Other than that, "survival" was not a theme. Life was harsh in the Wasteland - it wasn't hard.

Wasteland is not a generic post-Apocalypse setting. Wasteland was a very specific setting, a very specific game. Discard your preconceptions about "post-Apocalypse"; some apply, most do not.

[vadrick]

could we eat dead party members?

There should be a mode where you have to press a key for each player to take a breath. Step away from the keyboard and they whole party is dead in a couple minutes. Wooo!

[SilverSam]

"Hardcore" and needing food have nothing to do with old or new school. At all.

Wasteland was not a game about survival. You needed a canteen to get through the desert; you needed a doctor to recover from serious wounds. Other than that, "survival" was not a theme. Life was harsh in the Wasteland - it wasn't hard.

Wasteland is not a generic post-Apocalypse setting. Wasteland was a very specific setting, a very specific game. Discard your preconceptions about "post-Apocalypse"; some apply, most do not.

Yep, you have a point there, chap. The old school ones were the ones where you could be around a desert for a month without having penalties, your party could be reduced to bits and if you visited a medic, you were one piece in a moment, you could use a weapon for a month and it would be ok.

But some of the issues of the penalties of wounds in some parts of the body or hallucinations would be funny (in place of some negative states). And if you are going through a desert, remember mirages and all that stuff

[Harpo]

"Hardcore" and needing food have nothing to do with old or new school. At all.

Wasteland was not a game about survival. You needed a canteen to get through the desert; you needed a doctor to recover from serious wounds. Other than that, "survival" was not a theme. Life was harsh in the Wasteland - it wasn't hard.

Wasteland is not a generic post-Apocalypse setting. Wasteland was a very specific setting, a very specific game. Discard your preconceptions about "post-Apocalypse"; some apply, most do not.

You really seem to take pleasure in misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm close to checking my posts just to make sure I do them in english and not my native language.

Making challenging games that does not provide the player with all the answers and allows the player to fail, struggle or temporarily get stuck is old school. Why? Because most great old games did one ore more of those things. New games? Not so much. New games tell you exactly what to do at all times so you don't get stuck and loose interest.

Now, survival introduces a challenge, a struggle. Therefore it is more in line with old school games than it is with new school games. Was it easier to follow this time around?

Survival = challenge/struggle = old school game designs

As said by so many here before, the "It was not in wasteland 1 so it has no place in wasteland 2" arguments are really growing old. This is a place to pitch ideas that we think might enhance the experience his time around. If you look around there are dozens and dozens of players that seem to think that this is a perfect way of introducing challenge to the game and still fit it within the Wasteland theme. It wasn't in wasteland 1. Wasteland 1 didn't have everything. It fitted in a 1MB diskette for crying out loud! It was the first of its kind. Much has happened since then.

I am absolutely certain that wasteland 2 would be a huge flop if they did it exactly as wasteland 1. The combat system is outdated. The graphics are outdated. The user interface is outdated. The theme is not and it has room for a lot of adjustments and enhancements without spoiling it even a bit. The possibilities are so much greater this time around. Just imagine what Brian and the guys on his team have learned the last 24 years.

[krellen]

the "It was not in wasteland 1 so it has no place in wasteland 2" arguments are really growing old.

So are the "new ideas are great and should be tried out" arguments. They're they exact same argument, made from opposite sides of the same room.

Look, I don't care what "post-Apocalyptic" means to you. It doesn't matter. It's completely irrelevant. Wasteland is not a generic setting. It is a specific setting. Make suggestions that fit in with the already established setting, not ideas that fit in with some generic notion of "post-Apocalypse".

[Harpo]

the "It was not in wasteland 1 so it has no place in wasteland 2" arguments are really growing old.

So are the "new ideas are great and should be tried out" arguments. They're they exact same argument, made from opposite sides of the same room.

Haha, yeah. The distinct difference is that the new arguments are many and creative. The "it wasn't in wasteland 1" argument is repeated like you where parrots or forum bots.

"A new idea appears. Conservative gamer uses "it wasn't in wasteland 1" argument... again. Its not very effective!"

[SilverSam]

the "It was not in wasteland 1 so it has no place in wasteland 2" arguments are really growing old.

So are the "new ideas are great and should be tried out" arguments. They're they exact same argument, made from opposite sides of the same room.

Haha, yeah. The distinct difference is that the new arguments are many and creative. The "it wasn't in wasteland 1" argument is repeated like you where parrots or forum bots.

"A new idea appears. Conservative gamer uses "it wasn't in wasteland 1" argument... again. Its not very effective!"

Sorry to still like the old games, man. But we still like them. You can say that or the usual "Nostalgia Goggles" thing, but the thing of the hardcore survivalist mode is something that is implementing some other "modern games", pal. You can say that "realism and new ideas are really good and great to this game", but we only want the main thing of the ROG, not an action RPG with survival mode and lot of other things that take away the game from the pure concept of RPG. So please, don't mock on the old school guys, because we still have lots of opinions. The challenge in old school games came through grinding, leveling and putting really huge and frigging difficult enemies in front of you and squish your brain to make out how to kill them

[Harpo]

I would much rater see why the idea wouldn't fit in wasteland 2. Why is it flawed? Does it cost to much? Is it not in line with the setting? Why not? Has the idea been implemented before and failed?

And so on.

Using the same argument over and over again for any and all argument made "from the opposite side of the room" doesn't really do it. There's no explanation what so ever in it. No constructive criticism. Nothing. It simple doesn't add to the discussion. Especially not if abused like it is.

[Harpo]

Sorry to still like the old games, man. But we still like them. You can say that or the usual "Nostalgia Goggles" thing, but the thing of the hardcore survivalist mode is something that is implementing some other "modern games", pal. You can say that "realism and new ideas are really good and great to this game", but we only want the main thing of the ROG, not an action RPG with survival mode and lot of other things that take away the game from the pure concept of RPG. So please, don't mock on the old school guys, because we still have lots of opinions

I'm not mocking the old school gamers. I consider myself one of them. I replay Fallout 1 & 2, Monkey island, Day of the tentacle and many others on a regular basis. I prefer old games too. I grew up with them. All I'm saying is that saying it wasn't in wasteland 1 without any further explanation or additional arguments or any criticism does not add to the discussions at all. As I said - it's not very effective. Also, it is boring to read since it is in every damn thread, by the same people. Over and over again.

[knux81]

I was suggesting it as an option. I for one would love to have the ability to run through the game as normal and then for a further challenge..start a new game and kick in HARDCORE (bow-chicka-bow-wow) mode to test my mettle.

There are alot of ideas that that could be tried out for the beta release...

I would think having the need to get food/water or a place to shelter would be good as it would get you to explore more. Revisit places you'd been...Maybe get you to try playing in a way you wouldn't usually.

I would get more attached to my group if I had to work my ass off to keep them alive and in tip top condition. It would stop me from pulling a Leeroy like I do in some of the RPGs I play as I know if I can keep one alive, I can res the rest with little or no penalty...apart from some gold or somesuch.

Has no-one played games like Betrayal at Krondor (need for rations during trip) or Realms of Arkania (need for sleep and illness if you go to sleep in bad places or wet etc etc)?

Or even Robinsons Requiem? O.o That game was ALL about survival...and it was damn kick ass too!